Patrik Laine II: The Roof Still is Still On (for now)

[MAHJ71]

It was. And I still feel like with that context, Jarmo did fairly well.

I think the jury is still out. Arguments could certainly be made either way.

 

[Monk]

I think the jury is still out. Arguments could certainly be made either way.

The jury will always be out until the players involved are retired. I'm just saying, at the time, I didn't think there was a better option available - and I still don't - unless there was some way to rectify the situation with PLD. But if there was, I doubt Jarmo would have traded him.

 

[Jive Pawnbroker]

The jury will always be out until the players involved are retired. I'm just saying, at the time, I didn't think there was a better option available - and I still don't - unless there was some way to rectify the situation with PLD. But if there was, I doubt Jarmo would have traded him.

PLD has replaced Jeff Carter as #1 on my Most Hated List. I never thought anyone would ever top Carter but PLD managed to do it.

 

[Bruce Granville]

How to Ruin a Player

View attachment 419654

My apologies if previously posted/discussed.

Remember the last game Laine scored a goal?
He had already 1+1 and got benched. Panthers rallied 4 goals and CBJ lost in OT.
After that something inside broke.
His strength (scoring goals) obviously isn‘t what his coach wants most out of him.
He has always different linemates.
CBJ has no real C. (And no, hockey is still a team sport where you need you other team members to score. Otherwise McDavid would score 5 goals every game starting behind his own net. So, you might sometimes have the skills to score a goal on your own, but 99.9% of the goals score are a team effort.)
Laine was new to the team but got benched twice before he even found chemistry with any player. Although he is called a one trick pony you still shouldn‘t try to break him in like that.

The trade was not smart, if you take Roslovic out of the equation, because you never should trade away your #1C for a winger. Especially if you don‘t have any C to play with this new winger.
Domi is more f a winger than a C, Roslovic and Laine is not a fit and the rest know only to dump and chase. Heck, there isn‘t even one player to carry the puck in on the whole team.

If someone offers you anything of value, a #2C, a high pick and/or good prospects, take it and run.
The next season will not raise Laine‘s value and you should retool/rebuild.
Trade one of your goalies, trade Savard, trade Foligno (and re-sign him after the season) and draft C‘s.

 

[MAHJ71]

The jury will always be out until the players involved are retired. I'm just saying, at the time, I didn't think there was a better option available - and I still don't - unless there was some way to rectify the situation with PLD. But if there was, I doubt Jarmo would have traded him.

We don't know what the other offers were...

 

[Long Live Lyle]

Excuses are done. He’s playing hard mostly from what I’ve seen (I skipped this Tampa game until the final 10 minutes) but it’s time to piss or get off the pot. You’re a game breaking scorer? Prove it. I get your centers suck. I get your coach preaches defense first and you have responsibilities there. That doesn’t mean he should have 4th liner production. I saw he had a nice chance to score but it got robbed, and at least that’s a positive push in the right direction as far as getting chances. Time to score. There’s no excuse anymore.

I get he’s 22/23 and he’s far from a finished product but he has over 200 games in the NHL. He knows how to score and how to get chances. f***ing do it

This is exactly right. Yes, (as much as I love him and as great as he's been most of his tenure here) Torts needs to go. (Not just because of/due to Laine, but clearly his time is up due to factors across the board with this team.) And maybe/hopefully Laine will flourish under the new guy.

But Laine makes $8M. He's in his 5th year in the league. He's young, but he's not some rookie and he should know by now what it takes to succeed in the NHL. He needs to figure it out, too, it's not just on Torts. Roslovic was explicitly called out by Torts to the media (more than Torts has ever called out Laine) and healthy scratched (which has never happened here to Laine). I'm not even saying I agree with those tactics from Torts (because I don't) but they were more drastic measures than any he has taken with Laine, and Roslovic has still responded.

Elvis has more points than Laine over the past 8 games. Regardless of Torts, Patrik needs to get it together.

 

[Monk]

We don't know what the other offers were...

Exactly

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

The trade was not smart, if you take Roslovic out of the equation, because you never should trade away your #1C for a winger. Especially if you don‘t have any C to play with this new winger.
Domi is more f a winger than a C, Roslovic and Laine is not a fit and the rest know only to dump and chase. Heck, there isn‘t even one player to carry the puck in on the whole team.

If someone offers you anything of value, a #2C, a high pick and/or good prospects, take it and run.

CPTN wasn’t replying to you, but...

We don't know what the other offers were...

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Can we afford to sell low after giving up PLD for him?

How does Jarmo justify that without ever attempting to rectify the C situation first?

I'm not against moving on from him -- but I think it is crucial to get the timing right. Selling low simply isn't an option right now given the runway we have..

Looking back it feels like the PLD situation was semi-rushed/forced...and look where we are at now.

That trade is done and gone. It's a sunk cost as they say in accounting. Laine's value is what it is.

I agree that it had that it had a rushed feel to it. Still, on paper, getting Laine and Roslovic for PLD hardly felt like a bargain basement return. In terms of overall return (outside of the 1C issue) I don't think the Jets highjacked the Jackets.

QO him on a 1 year show me your better than this deal, let him get hotter next year (maybe) and see if you can trade at a higher value (or if you want to keep him).

The problem for me with this approach is that he's been exposed on many levels and at this point-even with a sustained hot streak next season (or to close this season)-is Laine the type of player who you'd want to sink $8 million per year into for 7 or 8 seasons?

There's got to be a GM out there who thinks that Torts and/or the unusual situation of this season is the root cause of Laine's troubles in Columbus. His value may not be as low as many seem to think-or it could be. With other teams, the RFA angle can be fully played-the new team won't feel obligated to sign him long term immediately and I think that adds value to him in a trade before the end of the season.

If he opens next season like he's played in this one-especially with a new coach-then his value will sink even more.

I still say get what you can get while you can get it. While Roslovic isn't an ideal 1C, his numbers to this point with Columbus are superior to Dubois' in Winnipeg. While I concede that's not a be -all-end-all analysis, I think that it strongly suggests that the CBJ already have gotten some solid (and low salary) value from the PLD trade.

 

[VT]

He has zero goals 5 on 5 in 25 games. That is about as ugly as it gets.

Roslovic has 27 points in 34 games with Torts on his a$$. This from a guy who averaged around .35 PPG in his last 2 seasons in WPG.

Laine's performance in CLB is not mostly on Torts. Only his fanatical supporters or those who detest Torts could believe this.

Laine has probably peaked already. Sure, he won't be as awful as he's been of late, but there's nothing in him that suggests long term commitment. I think his high end is Thomas Vanek-like. OK, but nothing worth the money that it would take to sign him.

Move on from the mistake. Now.

Laine can be better. But he must use all his potential and not only something. He can move his legs and use his body around the board, transition to the offesnive zone, it`s difficult to take him the puck when he wants to do it. Remember his the last game with Tampa in Tampa. Or many similar moments. But he`s unstable and doesn`t do it always. An there`s a question, why? I said psychology and confidence are two similar things. IMHO psychology is the reason he has never been forced to play aggressively, using all his skills throughout the game and not just one. Getting used to it is not easy. Especially when confidence is gone. But ... IMHO, if he can do it, it will only strengthen him.

 

[Guffman]

There's got to be a GM out there who thinks that Torts and/or the unusual situation of this season is the root cause of Laine's troubles in Columbus. His value may not be as low as many seem to think-or it could be. With another teams, the RFA angle can be fully played-the new team won't feel obligated to sign him long term immediately and I think that adds value to him in a trade before the end of the season.

If he opens next season like he's played in this one-especially with a new coach-then his value will sink even more.

I still say get what you can get while you can get it.

I don’t think a GM will look at short-term results/one season and devalue a player’s worth. I’m sure some people were saying that Dubois wouldn’t get much of a return after he flaked out on the team and had a poor start but a lot of teams were knocking on your door.

I think most GMs would recognize that this season is atypical. Coach/player do not mesh, CBJ do not have the team to properly utilize his potential etc. That said, two seasons ago, he had that rocky hot and mostly cold performance. It makes it VERY risky to give him a long-term/high AAV contract.

If you think he has potential to fit in with your franchise, I think you do sign him for one more season and see how it goes before you commit. If you’re convinced it will not work out, you flip him this offseason instead of thinking you can increase his value with a better season (but reducing his control by a year).

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Cyclones and Guffman are both right and maybe that’s why it’s time to move him. Stop thinking of it as a loss from the PLD trade and more like you got Roslovic + (assets in return for Laine) for Dubois.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Cyclones and Guffman are both right and maybe that’s why it’s time to move him. Stop thinking of it as a loss from the PLD trade and more like you got Roslovic + (assets in return for Laine) for Dubois.

Any way you look at it, trading Laine now would make the trade an unmitigated disaster. It would be version 2 of the Jeff Carter deal. I’m not willing to punt on a 23 year old 40 goal scorer over 1 horrible month.

Also I want to point out that after we got Duchene and all the way up until the playoffs PLD struggled as bad as Laine has. But we didn’t care because we were a good team and Panarin was carrying everything. Yea, PLD had a good playoff and a few good games leading into the playoff to end that season, but he struggled mightily after being separated from Panarin for a while. We didn’t give up on him, and I still don’t think giving up on Laine now is the right course of action.

PLD was not traded for Roslovic. He was a sweetener. He was traded for Laine. Might as well try to make it work

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Any way you look at it, trading Laine now would make the trade an unmitigated disaster. It would be version 2 of the Jeff Carter deal. I’m not willing to punt on a 23 year old 40 goal scorer over 1 horrible month.

Also I want to point out that after we got Duchene and all the way up until the playoffs PLD struggled as bad as Laine has. But we didn’t care because we were a good team and Panarin was carrying everything. Yea, PLD had a good playoff and a few good games leading into the playoff to end that season, but he struggled mightily after being separated from Panarin for a while. We didn’t give up on him, and I still don’t think giving up on Laine now is the right course of action.

PLD was not traded for Roslovic. He was a sweetener. He was traded for Laine. Might as well try to make it work

Maybe Laine is really good but maybe he doesn’t help CBJ roster as much as players/assets you could get in return for him?

I’m just thinking out loud here. As I said before my thought has been QO all along.

 

[VT]

Maybe Laine is really good but maybe he doesn’t help CBJ roster as much as players/assets you could get in return for him?

I’m just thinking out loud here. As I said before my thought has been QO all along.

Maybe it`s problem in his conditions. Torts wants to do him a power forward but there`s another condition for it, more strong. Plus play every minute in the game... similar.

 

[gearmex]

What is i don't get these NHL coaches, every coach try to change the player to a different kind of player what Laine is not. First Jets coach, he did good his first 2 seasons in Jets and then the change started and see where that went, now Torts trying all his will to change his playing style and see where that goes...to Shit.

 

[LoneFunyan]

Obviously, it's heavily dependent on the offer, but I'm inclined to think any trade is a Monty Hall scenario: you have the two tickets to see Yakov Smirnoff in Branson, MO, but would you prefer to door #2?

I'm not a huge fan of MO or Smirnoff, but there's a reasonable chance whatever I trade them for is going to be no better and likely worse than what I already have, esp if what's behind door #2 is picks and prospects.

We're on the cusp of a rebuild. Laine is a young, pure-upside asset that will be hitting his prime in 3-4 years right as we are trying to contend again (if things go to plan). I give him a season to emerge from a chaotic year. If he's still bad next year, trade him for whatever or just let him go and acknowledge that PLD almost single-handedly wrecked this team for a decade.

 

[JacketsDavid]

Obviously, it's heavily dependent on the offer, but I'm inclined to think any trade is a Monty Hall scenario: you have the two tickets to see Yakov Smirnoff in Branson, MO, but would you prefer to door #2?

I'm not a huge fan of MO or Smirnoff, but there's a reasonable chance whatever I trade them for is going to be no better and likely worse than what I already have, esp if what's behind door #2 is picks and prospects.

We're on the cusp of a rebuild. Laine is a young, pure-upside asset that will be hitting his prime in 3-4 years right as we are trying to contend again (if things go to plan). I give him a season to emerge from a chaotic year. If he's still bad next year, trade him for whatever or just let him go and acknowledge that PLD almost single-handedly wrecked this team for a decade.

I see the point. To me it comes down to a couple things:
1. What does management imagine as the rebuild? If they see it as hey we're be back competitive next seson or break it down we need to reload and be ready in 2022-23?
2. What would they do with the cap space? If we keep Laine it will cost us $7.5M. If we did trade him and did not take back a salary for next season does management feel with those dollars and other assets (including draft picks) can they actually get a top 6 center?

If they really think they can get that player in off season then I'm ok getting what we can. Now my perspective is we've been looking for that Center since the beginning. We thought maybe RyJo was that guy, then PLD, then Duchene. So it won't be easy to find but maybe an opportunity if other teams are still feeling effects of COVID and looking to move salaries?

 

[Whyme]

What is i don't get these NHL coaches, every coach try to change the player to a different kind of player what Laine is not. First Jets coach, he did good his first 2 seasons in Jets and then the change started and see where that went, now Torts trying all his will to change his playing style and see where that goes...to Shit.

The Jets allowed Laine to concentrate on scoring goals, even when it cost a lot of goals against at first, but at some point they probably felt that'll make the new contract more expensive than what they'd actually get so they started to mold his game to more responsible even if it meant less goals. That's how I believe anyway.

I think this slump is mainly mental, but many factors do play a part. I believe one reason for Laine wanting to be traded was that he might get a higher salary somewhere else, but now he realizes he'd probably got a better contract if he'd stayed in the Jets. That may make the turmoil in his head worse.

BUT... Laine has had bad slumps before and changed completely when he's managed to score some goals. We'll need to see that Laine before drawing too strong conclusions. In the meantime he needs to work on some issues (like some defensive problems we saw in the last game) and I still hope he'd see a mental coach. I hope he takes this as a possibility to become a stronger person and a better hockey player. It may not feel like it right now, but it may well turn out to be a turning point for the better. I certainly hope so for the sake of him, his fans and the CBJ and its fans.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

What is i don't get these NHL coaches, every coach try to change the player to a different kind of player what Laine is not. First Jets coach, he did good his first 2 seasons in Jets and then the change started and see where that went, now Torts trying all his will to change his playing style and see where that goes...to Shit.

The problem with offense only guys is that they end up being on the ice for more goals than they create a lot of the time. Coaches often try to get them to be a bit more attentive to their defense in order to improve their overall contribution to the team.

This isn't to say that some coaches don't go overboard with it. With Laine, I have no idea what the CBJ coaching staff has done or hasn't done as I'm not in their practices and meetings. Given that Laine has now (apparently) run into issues with 2 coaching staffs on his style of play, the problem isn't necessarily all on the coaching staffs.

 

[MAHJ71]

That trade is done and gone. It's a sunk cost as they say in accounting. Laine's value is what it is.

That is definitely one way to look at it, and the sunk cost view may even be the correct way to look at it.

I'm just not quite there yet.

 

[cslebn]

That trade is done and gone. It's a sunk cost as they say in accounting. Laine's value is what it is.

I agree that it had that it had a rushed feel to it. Still, on paper, getting Laine and Roslovic for PLD hardly felt like a bargain basement return. In terms of overall return (outside of the 1C issue) I don't think the Jets highjacked the Jackets.



The problem for me with this approach is that he's been exposed on many levels and at this point-even with a sustained hot streak next season (or to close this season)-is Laine the type of player who you'd want to sink $8 million per year into for 7 or 8 seasons?

There's got to be a GM out there who thinks that Torts and/or the unusual situation of this season is the root cause of Laine's troubles in Columbus. His value may not be as low as many seem to think-or it could be. With other teams, the RFA angle can be fully played-the new team won't feel obligated to sign him long term immediately and I think that adds value to him in a trade before the end of the season.

If he opens next season like he's played in this one-especially with a new coach-then his value will sink even more.

I still say get what you can get while you can get it. While Roslovic isn't an ideal 1C, his numbers to this point with Columbus are superior to Dubois' in Winnipeg. While I concede that's not a be -all-end-all analysis, I think that it strongly suggests that the CBJ already have gotten some solid (and low salary) value from the PLD trade.

I guess my view is his value doesn't get any lower. Different POVs.

 

[CBJx614]

Maybe Laine is really good but maybe he doesn’t help CBJ roster as much as players/assets you could get in return for him?

I’m just thinking out loud here. As I said before my thought has been QO all along.

This goes both ways. He has absolutely no help around him...

The team has no 1/2C. Is it Roslovic? Is it Domi? Jenner? Foligno? None of those guys on a good team is a 1/2. Maybe Roslovic grows into it and if we're lucky Domi might be able to be a 2C, but neither is close to driving play on a consistent basis.

Outside of Roslovic and Bjorkstrand this team has absolutely no firepower. Jones and Werenski are good, but they shouldn't be top 5 in points on the team, especially when they're having a bad year. When the opposing team knows they can key in on Laine and they don't feel threatened that anyone else is a problem this is what's gonna happen.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

This goes both ways. He has absolutely no help around him...

The team has no 1/2C. Is it Roslovic? Is it Domi? Jenner? Foligno? None of those guys on a good team is a 1/2. Maybe Roslovic grows into it and if we're lucky Domi might be able to be a 2C, but neither is close to driving play on a consistent basis.

Outside of Roslovic and Bjorkstrand this team has absolutely no firepower. Jones and Werenski are good, but they shouldn't be top 5 in points on the team, especially when they're having a bad year. When the opposing team knows they can key in on Laine and they don't feel threatened that anyone else is a problem this is what's gonna happen.

Im just wondering if, on the whole, the roster would be better with stuff you’d get in trade for Laine than Laine.

 

[MissADD]

Im just wondering if, on the whole, the roster would be better with stuff you’d get in trade for Laine than Laine.

If you get a quality center in return yes. Center is a massive hole and I think it's so massive it really disrupts the entire team