Patrick Wiercioch is impressive.

[RuthlessLieutenant]

Schultz was being a considered an early favourite for the Calder by nhl.com. I think Wiercioch is playing better defensively than him and their point totals are nearly the same.

 

[WhiteLight*]

I said if he didn't fix the defensive side of his game, he'd end up as a 3rd pair D who can sub into the top 4 if there are injuries.

And I stand by that.



As for the rest: you're setting up a strawman about my views on Weircioch. Saying I think "he's so bad" and all this. I never said he was a bad player: in fact, I think I've sung his praises quite often this season. I think he's quite bad defensively at the moment, yes. You seem to think the opposite. We have two opposing, subjective views.

Take a pill and chill out, chum. It's not the end of the world that someone on the internet disagrees with you. You'll wake up tomorrow morning, I promise. The sky will not fall. The earth will not explode.

Everything is going to be ok.

Well when I said you think ''he's so bad'', I meant defensively. Which you do.

There's just nothing to base this on. He generally has good body position and stick position, covers his man, switches during coverage, doesn't get beat to the net. Slightly weak along the boards, but still, doesn't give them the middle of the ice. He doesn't get scored on, what more do you want?

Do you think Gryba is good defensively? Because he screws up more than Wiercioch. If so, you're discriminating against Wiercioch because of his style of play and ice time per game.

 

[BankStreetParade]

To be fair if it were that simple everyone would be a defensive specialist. Some guys just never get that side of the game. It's easier to teach because it's more systematic and you're generally following/predicting the other player as opposed to being forced to be creative...but it's still not as simple as saying someone can just learn it.

I'm confident Wiercioch can become serviceable defensively while being good offensively.

Why does he have to be a defensive specialist? That's not the kind of player he is. That's a Methot, a Gryba, a Phillips. We need Weircioch to be good in his own end so that he shines in the offensive end and puts up the points we need our offensive defensemen to put up. Also, I'm fairly certain that he's not completely clueless when it comes to defending in his own zone. Like I said it's a matter of getting the experience he needs dealing with different situations and guidance from a coaching staff that is one of the premier groups in the whole league. There's really nothing exceptional about that expectation. You guys make him sound like he's a liability in our own zone every second he's on the ice. He's making rookie mistakes. That stuff happens.

 

[WhiteLight*]

I said if he didn't fix the defensive side of his game, he'd end up as a 3rd pair D who can sub into the top 4 if there are injuries.

And I stand by that.



As for the rest: you're setting up a strawman about my views on Weircioch. Saying I think "he's so bad" and all this. I never said he was a bad player: in fact, I think I've sung his praises quite often this season. I think he's quite bad defensively at the moment, yes. You seem to think the opposite. We have two opposing, subjective views.

Take a pill and chill out, chum. It's not the end of the world that someone on the internet disagrees with you. You'll wake up tomorrow morning, I promise. The sky will not fall. The earth will not explode.

Everything is going to be ok.

Oh and I recall you saying that you didn't think it was likely that Wiercioch would improve enough defensively to be 2nd pairing. That he was most likely to be destined to be a 3rd pair guy. That he would not improve much.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Smitty26]

i see wiercioch as a 3rd pairing guy, but not because of his ability to play the game. i just think ceci/cowen will be our 2nd pairing for a long time. nothing wrong with having a 3-4 guy in wiercioch, as your 5th defenseman.

 

[BonkTastic]

Well when I said you think ''he's so bad'', I meant defensively. Which you do.

There's just nothing to base this on. He generally has good body position and stick position, covers his man, switches during coverage, doesn't get beat to the net. Slightly weak along the boards, but still, doesn't give them the middle of the ice. He doesn't get scored on, what more do you want?

Do you think Gryba is good defensively? Because he screws up more than Wiercioch. If so, you're discriminating against Wiercioch because of his style of play and ice time per game.

I sort of thought my last post had enough of a "let's drop this, because it's only going to get worse, we've established our positions fairly clearly, and it is an unnecessary, petty argument to continue" vibe to it... did it not? I was really, really trying hard to convey that message.

Apparently, it did not emphasize that message clearly enough.

 

[Mephias]

Well when I said you think ''he's so bad'', I meant defensively. Which you do.

There's just nothing to base this on. He generally has good body position and stick position, covers his man, switches during coverage, doesn't get beat to the net. Slightly weak along the boards, but still, doesn't give them the middle of the ice. He doesn't get scored on, what more do you want?

Do you think Gryba is good defensively? Because he screws up more than Wiercioch. If so, you're discriminating against Wiercioch because of his style of play and ice time per game.

I don't know why you always bring Gryba into the argument and insist Wiercioch is a better defender than him.

Gryba's been getting completely unsheltered minutes. I love how Wiercioch has been playing right now, but I wouldn't dare see him try to play against the Milan Lucic's of the league right now.

Right now Wiercioch is just too weak along the boards to match up against any good forechecking lines. That's why he's not getting as much ice-time as Gryba. He's a great skater, with great reach and a pretty good pokecheck, but none of that matters if a forward can just take the puck to the boards and keep possession there.

It's definitely something that he'll be able to work on, and he's definitely got a higher ceiling than Gryba, but right now Gryba's far more reliable defensively IMO.

 

[HavlatMach9]

I think Wiercioch is playing better defensively than him and their point totals are nearly the same.

Watched Shultz closely early in the season. I certainly wouldn't say that. Shultz is a quick thinker and makes solid passes and stays with his men on defense.

 

[Vaclav Varada]

Watched Shultz closely early in the season. I certainly wouldn't say that. Shultz is a quick thinker and makes solid passes and stays with his men on defense.

He also leads all Oilers in Avg/TOI. He's much less sheltered then Patty.

Wiercioch TOI - 15:18
Schultz TOI - 21:59

 

[WhiteLight*]

I sort of thought my last post had enough of a "let's drop this, because it's only going to get worse, we've established our positions fairly clearly, and it is an unnecessary, petty argument to continue" vibe to it... did it not? I was really, really trying hard to convey that message.

Apparently, it did not emphasize that message clearly enough.

lol


so we only drop things when you are wrong

I don't know why you always bring Gryba into the argument and insist Wiercioch is a better defender than him.

Gryba's been getting completely unsheltered minutes. I love how Wiercioch has been playing right now, but I wouldn't dare see him try to play against the Milan Lucic's of the league right now.

Right now Wiercioch is just too weak along the boards to match up against any good forechecking lines. That's why he's not getting as much ice-time as Gryba. He's a great skater, with great reach and a pretty good pokecheck, but none of that matters if a forward can just take the puck to the boards and keep possession there.

It's definitely something that he'll be able to work on, and he's definitely got a higher ceiling than Gryba, but right now Gryba's far more reliable defensively IMO.

Gryba has more strength along the boards but Wiercioch has better positioning and stick.

Wiercioch should lineup against Bergeron and Gryba vs Lucic.

I'd rather see Wiercioch against Kessel and Lupul than Gryba that's for sure.


I don't dislike Gryba; but if any of the two is a 3rd pair guy, he is the one.

 

[BonkTastic]

lol


so we only drop things when you are wrong

If anything, I'm more strengthened in my opinion than ever. I'm doubling down on them, in fact.

I'm saying "drop it" for reasons/ opinions that would probably get me infracted if I were to actually post them.

I'm trying to take the high road here, and your lack of tact, and your belligerence and attitude are making it phenomenally difficult to do.

 

[Vaclav Varada]

Yo MAK, Bonk has his opinion, you have yours. Can't you leave it at that? Not everyone everywhere is going to agree with you.

And it's not something we'll even know for some time so to argue about it is kinda pointless.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

I think some are underrating Wier a little bit. The guy had number 1 potential after his first couple years in NCAA. Absolutely dominant. He was simply dominant yet again in the A this year both ends of the ice. No reason to see an up-ward trend. I see him maxing at atleast a number 3 defender.

 

[WhiteLight*]

If anything, I'm more strengthened in my opinion than ever. I'm doubling down on them, in fact.

I'm saying "drop it" for reasons/ opinions that would probably get me infracted if I were to actually post them.

I'm trying to take the high road here, and your lack of tact, and your belligerence and attitude are making it phenomenally difficult to do.

You can say them, I don't mind. I won't take it personally. Can mods get infracted?


Anyway, I'm just genuinely puzzled by why you think he's so bad defensively that 1-he is not a 2nd pair d-man and 2-is not likely to improve enough to be one.

I mean there's no real evidence to support it

 

[YNWA14]

If anything, I'm more strengthened in my opinion than ever. I'm doubling down on them, in fact.

I'm saying "drop it" for reasons/ opinions that would probably get me infracted if I were to actually post them.

I'm trying to take the high road here, and your lack of tact, and your belligerence and attitude are making it phenomenally difficult to do.

Have you ever had a "debate/conversation" with MAK? It's always the same. Even when he/she is proven wrong.

 

[YNWA14]

You can say them, I don't mind. I won't take it personally. Can mods get infracted?


Anyway, I'm just genuinely puzzled by why you think he's so bad defensively that 1-he is not a 2nd pair d-man and 2-is not likely to improve enough to be one.

I mean there's no real evidence to support it

The evidence is in watching him play? He never wins battles on the boards, he blows coverage at times and has a very hard time getting the puck out of his own end (generally because he can't win puck battles).

He's good offensively but he has a long way to go before he's good enough defensively to be on against the best players of the other team.

 

[HavlatMach9]

Anyway, I'm just genuinely puzzled by why you think he's so bad defensively that 1-he is not a 2nd pair d-man and 2-is not likely to improve enough to be one.

Well Wiercioch with the puck is savvy, but when defending, it leaves a lot to be desired. Players seem to be able to shift away from him and Wiercioch gets left running around.

I doubt very much Bonk said that Wiercioch will not improve his defense to be a 2nd pairing dman. He was an AHL dman not long ago, the NHL is very new to him and now he knows not only that he can keep up, he knows on top of conditioning what it'll take to improve.

 

[Vaclav Varada]

Wier is 6th on the team out of the Dmen in Avg/Toi. He's being sheltered because if he's having issues with the 3rd/4th liners of the world, he's going to be in way over his head against the Crosby's and Nash's of the world.

Yea Gryba makes a lot of mistakes too, but unlike Wiercioch, Gryba IS up against the Crosby's and Nash's of the world. If Gryba was playing against guys like Chris Thorburn, Dan Paille, etc I'm sure he'd look amazing.

Can Wiercioch's defensive game improve? Absolutely. I fully expect it too. He hasn't given me any reason to think it wont. It will most likely take a bit of time. He's not naturally a defensive player. Never has been since I've watched him. It'll be more practising things until they become second nature. It wont happen over night. It's going to take time and effort on Patty's part. I believe in him.

 

[ATdaisuki]

You can say them, I don't mind. I won't take it personally. Can mods get infracted?


Anyway, I'm just genuinely puzzled by why you think he's so bad defensively that 1-he is not a 2nd pair d-man and 2-is not likely to improve enough to be one.

I mean there's no real evidence to support it

could you point out where he said it was unlikely wier would improve his defense? i only read him say "unless he improves" which does not state nor imply he finds it unlikely, just says he has to get better at it. just because he didn't say "when he improves defensively", doesn't mean he doesn't think he will.

then again, i'm not him, so what do i know about what's going on in his head? he could totally think that, but i haven't seen him write it out anywhere. i've only seen so much though...

 

[WhiteLight*]

The evidence is in watching him play? He never wins battles on the boards, he blows coverage at times and has a very hard time getting the puck out of his own end (generally because he can't win puck battles).

He's good offensively but he has a long way to go before he's good enough defensively to be on against the best players of the other team.

OK.

These things happen at times, but imo not enough to consider him bad defensively.

Other guys who are 'good' defensively screw up as well. Even rock solid Methot has blown coverage more than a few times the last 5 games.

Well Wiercioch with the puck is savvy, but when defending, it leaves a lot to be desired. Players seem to be able to shift away from him and Wiercioch gets left running around.

I doubt very much Bonk said that Wiercioch will not improve his defense to be a 2nd pairing dman. He was an AHL dman not long ago, the NHL is very new to him and now he knows not only that he can keep up, he knows on top of conditioning what it'll take to improve.

I thought that he did, but I asked him to correct me if I was wrong.


Wiercioch is worse defensively than Gonchar, Methot and the recent Phillips. Better than Gryba and Benoit. His big body and long stick is his real advantage over Benoit who I feel gets exposed when playing against top players because of this.

So Wiercioch is average/slightly below average on one of the best defensive teams in the league. I'd say he's an acceptable defender.

 

[HavlatMach9]

His big body and long stick is his real advantage over Benoit who I feel gets exposed when playing against top players because of this.

So Wiercioch is average/slightly below average on one of the best defensive teams in the league. I'd say he's an acceptable defender.

His tools allow him that advantage, but he's not using that advantage. You'll be alone in thinking he's been average or slightly below at the moment.

 

[WhiteLight*]

Wier is 6th on the team out of the Dmen in Avg/Toi. He's being sheltered because if he's having issues with the 3rd/4th liners of the world, he's going to be in way over his head against the Crosby's and Nash's of the world.

Yea Gryba makes a lot of mistakes too, but unlike Wiercioch, Gryba IS up against the Crosby's and Nash's of the world. If Gryba was playing against guys like Chris Thorburn, Dan Paille, etc I'm sure he'd look amazing.

Can Wiercioch's defensive game improve? Absolutely. I fully expect it too. He hasn't given me any reason to think it wont. It will most likely take a bit of time. He's not naturally a defensive player. Never has been since I've watched him. It'll be more practising things until they become second nature. It wont happen over night. It's going to take time and effort on Patty's part. I believe in him.

But he's not having issues. Absolutely not. When he's sheltered against those players, he's almost perfect.

When he plays against scoring lines, that's when he gets running around a little bit sometimes. But he still makes less mistakes than Gryba.


I don't understand where these ''issues'' are coming. How can he be a problem if he hardly ever gets scored on.



The low ice time has to be a conditioning/strength thing. Wiercioch has clearly outplayed Gryba. It's not close.

 

[WhiteLight*]

His tools allow him that advantage, but he's not using that advantage. You'll be alone in thinking he's been average or slightly below at the moment.

All right then. When Wiercioch - Gonchar face a scoring line, I don't break a sweat. I'm like ''Oh yeah, show me the magic''. I guess I can more easily enjoy than than all of you

 

[Laphroaig]

But he's not having issues. Absolutely not. When he's sheltered against those players, he's almost perfect.

When he plays against scoring lines, that's when he gets running around a little bit sometimes. But he still makes less mistakes than Gryba.


I don't understand where these ''issues'' are coming. How can he be a problem if he hardly ever gets scored on.



The low ice time has to be a conditioning/strength thing. Wiercioch has clearly outplayed Gryba. It's not close.[/QUOTE]

Don't be ridiculous. Gryba has played 21:38 minutes per game against the best while Wiecioch averages 15:18 heavily sheltered minutes. It has nothing to do with conditioning. Gryba is just much better defensively. That is all.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

I'd trade him for Matt Read to be quite frank

If Philly were looking for a high calibre, young puck-moving defense man and willing offer a 50 point winger I'd take that deal