P.K. Subban Thread - 5.0 - The "Doughty Money Vs. Lowball Bridge" Edition

[JustAHabFan]

Now don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the guy and think that anything lower than 4.5 milions on a relatively short (2-3 years) deal would be perfect as far as the money and term of the contract go. He instanly betters our whole defeinve corps.

IMO, paying Subban upwards of 5.5 millions (up to 6 millions as per Subban's demands as far as I've heard) for a lengthy number of years in these conditions, while he hasn't proven that his offense can take the next step forward and while we hold his rights as a RFA fully, with no arbitration, would be asinine.

It would set a precedent for our young players to follow in the upcoming years (IE no ''bridge contracts'') and send the wrong message to older guys who've had second contracts (Price and Pacioretty), but the worst part of it all would be that it opens the door to further hold-outs, illustrating Marc Bergevin's desperation and inability to hold firm and true; ''Give an inch and they take a mile'' as the proverb says.

You just don't know the number. Your heard the rumors about 6M and Subban said that he asked for reasonable amount. Nobody knows the number PK is asking for, so you can not make any assumption at this point. I am taking side with PK because I do think he has shown enough in the last 2 years to warrant a long term contract. You have to remmember Patches and Prices did not show much after the ELC. PK case is different.

 

[Carboneer]

I don't understand how you can take PK's side, or how you can take the Habs' side... we don't know the facts.

All that I know is that a lot of fans are going to get pissed off at PK because they think he's being a selfish baby, whether its warranted or not, and the longer this drags on the harder its going to be for people to forget this whole thing.

 

[JustAHabFan]

I don't understand how you can take PK's side, or how you can take the Habs' side... we don't know the facts.

All that I know is that a lot of fans are going to get pissed off at PK because they think he's being a selfish baby, whether its warranted or not, and the longer this drags on the harder its going to be for people to forget this whole thing.

It's boiling down to whether PK has shown you enough in the last 2 years to warrant a long term contract. I think he did. The fact that MB insisted on bridge contract told us that he did not think PK has shown enough.

 

[Habaneros]

I don't understand how you can take PK's side, or how you can take the Habs' side... we don't know the facts.

All that I know is that a lot of fans are going to get pissed off at PK because they think he's being a selfish baby, whether its warranted or not, and the longer this drags on the harder its going to be for people to forget this whole thing.

no need to take any side..
fans love pk....pk love habs...

as i said , his agent will meet with Marc Friday to move this along....

will see him soon , no later than Jets game Jan 29....until then dont rack your brains too hard,.

 

[Price is Wright]

I don't understand how you can take PK's side, or how you can take the Habs' side... we don't know the facts.

All that I know is that a lot of fans are going to get pissed off at PK because they think he's being a selfish baby, whether its warranted or not, and the longer this drags on the harder its going to be for people to forget this whole thing.

Oh please. This is the NHL we're talking about. Is anyone still complaining about the lockout? The moment PK signs this will all be forgotten.

 

[Carboneer]

And do you guys really think Bergevin did not offer PK a longer term deal than 2 or 3 years? I find that hard to believe... IMO, he offered him a 2 or 3 year deal with a significant annual salary, and a long term deal with a lesser annual salary. Anyways, thats what I would do as the Habs GM. PK, you choose: prove yourself for 2 years and make a good salary and we'll see if you deserve your huge pay day, or take my long term deal for less money per year but at least you are guaranteed that salary for all those years as security.

It seems obvious to me that PK wants the best of both worlds, which is understandable, but which also explains the disdain some fans have for him at the moment.

 

[Carboneer]

Oh please. This is the NHL we're talking about. Is anyone still complaining about the lockout? The moment PK signs this will all be forgotten.

not the fans on the RDS talkbacks, they wont forget hahaha they love to hate it seems

 

[Price is Wright]

not the fans on the RDS talkbacks, they wont forget hahaha they love to hate it seems

Reading RDS Talkbacks is like skipping your medication. The more you do it, the crazier you get.

 

[Intangir]

It's boiling down to whether PK has shown you enough in the last 2 years to warrant a long term contract. I think he did. The fact that MB insisted on bridge contract told us that he did not think PK has shown enough.

I think it has more to do about setting a positive precedent (for the team) with youngsters that would eventually benefit the team long-term than it has to do with Bergevin's trust in Subban personally.

I believe Bergevin is trying to institute a ''culture'', a tradition by accumulation of precedents that would allow the Canadiens in later years to retain young talent at a cheaper price in a relatively short term and better evaluate them before handing the bank over to them.

Ultimately it all boils down to wether or not you believe that a young player should or not bite the bullet (while still getting paid handsomely) and help the team that allowed him to show his talents to the world before cashing in.

 

[Carboneer]

Reading RDS Talkbacks is like skipping your medication. The more you do it, the crazier you get.

but there's something so addictive about it... make yourself a bag of popcorn and just let yourself be entertained hahah

 

[JustAHabFan]

And do you guys really think Bergevin did not offer PK a longer term deal than 2 or 3 years? I find that hard to believe... IMO, he offered him a 2 or 3 year deal with a significant annual salary, and a long term deal with a lesser annual salary. Anyways, thats what I would do as the Habs GM. PK, you choose: prove yourself for 2 years and make a good salary and we'll see if you deserve your huge pay day, or take my long term deal for less money per year but at least you are guaranteed that salary for all those years as security.

It seems obvious to me that PK wants the best of both worlds, which is understandable, but which also explains the disdain some fans have for him at the moment.

What we know is MB insisted on bridge contract and PK is asking for long term. We do not know how much MB put on the bridge contract and we do not know how much PK is asking for in the long term contract. Bobby Mac said that gap is like 2.5 to 3M and he believed PK will be traded because the gap is too big. Myself, I do not know why quite a few of fans here hated PK for this contract dispute.

 

[Price is Wright]

What we know is MB insisted on bridge contract and PK is asking for long term. We do not know how much MB put on the bridge contract and we do not know how much PK is asking for in the long term contract. Bobby Mac said that gap is like 2.5 to 3M and he believed PK will be traded because the gap is too big. Myself, I do not know why quite a few of fans here hated PK for this contract dispute.

McKenzie probably puts too much stock into remembering how Ryan Smyth got traded because he wanted three M&Ms from the M&M bag and Edmonton was only willing to hand him two.

 

[Intangir]

but there's something so addictive about it... make yourself a bag of popcorn and just let yourself be entertained hahah

... and eventually end up in a medical ward throwing your own feces at nursemaids (or eating it) without any prior recollection of your life...

 

[Habaneros]

What we know is MB insisted on bridge contract and PK is asking for long term. We do not know how much MB put on the bridge contract and we do not know how much PK is asking for in the long term contract. Bobby Mac said that gap is like 2.5 to 3M and he believed PK will be traded because the gap is too big. Myself, I do not know why quite a few of fans here hated PK for this contract dispute.

I can't imagine the backlash/flack trading PK would create in Montreal....it will be a huge distraction to the team after the trade, and likely sink the team ...

anyways ,will see him soon in Montreal.

 

[JustAHabFan]

I think it has more to do about setting a positive precedent (for the team) with youngsters that would eventually benefit the team long-term than it has to do with Bergevin's trust in Subban personally.

I believe Bergevin is trying to institute a ''culture'', a tradition by accumulation of precedents that would allow the Canadiens in later years to retain young talent at a cheaper price in a relatively short term and better evaluate them before handing the bank over to them.

Ultimately it all boils down to wether or not you believe that a young player should or not bite the bullet (while still getting paid handsomely) and help the team that allowed him to show his talents to the world before cashing in.

You can not treat every player the same way. Is it worth it to lose one of your best defenseman over "principle". If Galchenyuk will be execellent the next 2 years, would you trade him because he will ask for a long term contract instead of a bridge contract? If you have traded away PK, then you will have to trade Galchenyuk too for "principle" reason?

 

[Daffy]

I can't imagine the backlash/flack trading PK would create in Montreal....it will be a huge distraction to the team after the trade, and likely sink the team ...

anyways ,will see him soon in Montreal.

Don't want to start a riot lol, but Subban will be traded. Just a matter of time now. Don't shoot the messenger.

 

[JustAHabFan]

Don't want to start a riot lol, but Subban will be traded. Just a matter of time now. Don't shoot the messenger.

How do you know? You should be shot for spreading false rumors.

 

[Habaneros]

Don't want to start a riot lol, but Subban will be traded. Just a matter of time now. Don't shoot the messenger.

it doesn't take much to start a real one in Montreal....(cars on fire windows smashed out etc) history has shown this ...lol



I like and respect Bob McKenzie,...but just remember he had Habs finishing first last year too....


Again PK is so popular in Montreal, your really playing with fire to send him away .....i would mark danger on this type of action ...

Subban will be on ice for Jets game, i expect a 2-3 min PK PK CHANT

 

[Daffy]

How do you know? You should be shot for spreading false rumors.

Classy response. You give Habs fans a bad name. And who said anything about false rumours?

 

[Talks to Goalposts]

huh, you're quoting the wrong person here.

Sorry, what you were talking about wasn't exactly clear to me.

No I didn't.
I don't know what you are talking about. I never said that they were the anchors that dragged our team down.

You were making an argument that they weren't good enough to be a top pair because the team finished 15th. If they had playoff first pairing worthy results then your argument doesn't follow. They can only effect what happens when they are on the ice. If their results are the same of that of first pairings on competitive teams, then the difference between the Habs and competitive teams must be elsewhere, not in the 1st pairing.

No they didn't. Transition wasn't great, and our breakouts weren't always clean, lots of off the board and out, couldn't beat the forecheck. Offensive zone time and pressure from the points wasn't great either.

On aggregate their offensive zone time and transition wasn't great, but you can't attribute that to Subban. He dominated offensive zone/transition to start the season when they were playing well on ES and his decline mirrored that of the team. The decline of the 2nd and 3rd lines and the change in puck movement system post Martin are attributible for this result, not the 1st pair which was largely a constant. Effectively you're blaming the players for Randypuck.

This can happen to the best of pairings. Team weaknesses meant that the Weber-Suter pairing was playing about even on puck possession in the same role as Gorges-Subban while the rest of the squad was getting pounded at ES on puck control and praying for Rinne to save them. We can recognize them as a great pairing by how well they were doing under these circumstances.

For what he can do in a good system, rewatch the Habs-Bruins system. Bruins found it nearly impossible to forecheck Gill-Subban successfully. They were too good at getting lose pucks and transitioning the puck up. And Subban's skating and strength made it a pain to get the puck off him.

 

[yianik]

You can not treat every player the same way. Is it worth it to lose one of your best defenseman over "principle". If Galchenyuk will be execellent the next 2 years, would you trade him because he will ask for a long term contract instead of a bridge contract? If you have traded away PK, then you will have to trade Galchenyuk too for "principle" reason?

This actually might be where we are at, and the Habs are very principled. The Habs have historically walked the walk on the idea no player is above the team (and that you do not disgrace the C) . See Roy, though he apologized for his actions he was gone, out of principle. So yes, MB could take the view that its Habs policy for always a bridge contract and it must be accepted by every player as , from his viewpoint, it is in the Habs interests .
Personally I see this as a disaster if it comes to a trade. While by the numbers there have to be 30 number one d-men in the league, guys who actually are elite and can affect the outcome of a game are fewer, ala Markov or Chelios. PK isnt there yet, but he absolutely has that potential and he is the only one in our system with that potential. That kind of player may be the rarest to find in hockey and we could be set for 6-10 years with PK in that role. We will not make out well on a trade. On a one for one we wouldnt get back another young, d-man with number one potential , so wed get something other, which wouldnt fill this top need, or wed get lesser pieces, which means we gave up the best asset. I get principle, but I hate it at times.

 

[JustAHabFan]

This actually might be where we are at, and the Habs are very principled. The Habs have historically walked the walk on the idea no player is above the team (and that you do not disgrace the C) . See Roy, though he apologized for his actions he was gone, out of principle. So yes, MB could take the view that its Habs policy for always a bridge contract and it must be accepted by every player as , from his viewpoint, it is in the Habs interests .
Personally I see this as a disaster if it comes to a trade. While by the numbers there have to be 30 number one d-men in the league, guys who actually are elite and can affect the outcome of a game are fewer, ala Markov or Chelios. PK isnt there yet, but he absolutely has that potential and he is the only one in our system with that potential. That kind of player may be the rarest to find in hockey and we could be set for 6-10 years with PK in that role. We will not make out well on a trade. On a one for one we wouldnt get back another young, d-man with number one potential , so wed get something other, which wouldnt fill this top need, or wed get lesser pieces, which means we gave up the best asset. I get principle, but I hate it at times.

I also hated these principles. Gainey had the "principle" of no contact talk during the season. If you do not talk to the player about contract during the season then how do you know if the player want to resign or not. In case, they do not want to resign, you simply let them walk instead of trading them at the deadline to get prospects, draft picks. These "principles" are recipe for disasters.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I'm surprised no one is asking why hasn't PK received an offer sheet from another team yet? Or has he, and has not signed it yet, and is why it's taking so much time, using it as a bargaining chip?

How many offer sheets go by without getting signed, do we hear about those offersheets that some players (in all probability) refuse to sign?

If no offersheet has been made to Subban, what gives? I'm not denying PK's talent, I'm a fan, but I find it odd that he hasn't signed an offersheet up to this point. Is it because of his reputation? Is it because he's not receiving any? Or because he outright refuses to go anywhere but still wants to use it to bargain?

What gives?

 

[JustAHabFan]

I'm surprised no one is asking why hasn't PK received an offer sheet from another team yet? Or has he, and has not signed it yet, and is why it's taking so much time, using it as a bargaining chip?

How many offer sheets go by without getting signed, do we hear about those offersheets that some players (in all probability) refuse to sign?

If no offersheet has been made to Subban, what gives? I'm not denying PK's talent, I'm a fan, but I find it odd that he hasn't signed an offersheet up to this point. Is it because of his reputation? Is it because he's not receiving any? Or because he outright refuses to go anywhere but still wants to use it to bargain?

What gives?

Coming out of a lockout, I don't think there will be an offer sheet for anybody. I do not hear Benn get any offer sheet neither.

 

[DAChampion]

You can't give Subban 6M...he's a great player for you guys but once you give him 6M, next minute you know Galchenyuk is demanding 6M right out of his RFA contract.

If Galchenyuk deserves 6 million right out of his ELC, then give him 6 million.

Pronman with some snark:

Thanks for that.

No we don't. If he blows this, we know all we need to know.

Agreed, if Bergevin loses Subban, then he is a bad GM.

?Stubbs article: http://www.montrealgazette.com/spor...t+stalemate+ongoing+Subban/7862837/story.html

Thanks for the link. Subban comes off as a level-headed guy in the article.

Both Stan Bowman and Bergevin himself said that Bergevin is "not a numbers guy"

In other words he's probably not very smart.

In my experience ability to deal with numbers correlates sharply with intelligence.

I think Philly and Detroit will go hard for Subban if he's available.

Brayden Schenn
Jakub Voracek
Sean Couturier
For
PK Subban
Lars Eller

Bergevin is working hard to drive down Subban's value. We'll be lucky to get Voracek in a 1 for 1 swap.

I am not sure why I find it surprising, but the lack of objectivity when it comes to Subban is amazing.

To those who worship him, he can do no wrong. To those who don't, he can do very little right.

And there seems to be very little middle ground. Amazing.

Congratulations, you've convinced yourself you're smarter than both sides even though you have nothing to contribute.

That is a red herring argument.

PK is (was) our #1 DMan because Markov was injured and the rest of our DMen would be fortunate to be bottom pairing or even worse, # 7 or #8.

Would PK be a #1 in Boston? Vancouver? Chicago?

Perspective is needed.

For Subban fans, he deserves the highest contract possible because he is the best DMan in Montreal.

For the rest of the NHL, Subban is not a #1 DMan and who has yet to prove he is worthy of a #1 DMan salary.

Yes, Bergevin is the Montreal GM but he must manage in the NHL where reality rules over emotion.

To those worried about trading Subban and not getting greater "value". Yes, be worried. For Subban's value is a lot higher in the eyes of Montreal fans than it is around the NHL in the GMs offices.

You don't think Subban is a true #1?

OK, then he's a #2. Pay him as such.

And on the flip side, Tinordi and Beaulieu could tell Bergevin that they want $7 million dollar contracts after their 2nd season and hold out just to prove they are serious.

Tinordi and Beaulieu should eventually be paid what they're worth, not lowballed.

Wow, if the rumor of Subban asking 24M for 6 years is true and Bergevin is holding out only so that Subban agrees to a bridge contract, I'd say I'd put Bergevin on a comparable level of idiocy to Pierre Gauthier.

No, that would make him dumber than Gauthier.

There was 9 years between drafting Markov and drafting Subban. Says maybe another one is headed our way about 2016? Add 5 years for development, it's 2021.

Anyone want to wave goodbye to PK then wait to 2021 for his replacement?

It's binary - either lose Subban or break a team management policy.


You know, if you shake a tree in Montreal 3 Canadians hockey executives will fall from the branches. You would think with a think tank that big someone would be advising a little more strongly.

Don't forget Ryan McDonagh, Chris Chelios, and Eric Desjardins Habs draft good dmen fairly regularly.

In fact the only things Subban and TO have in common is that they are black athletes.

I'm happy someone had the courage to point that out.