P.K. Subban Thread - 5.0 - The "Doughty Money Vs. Lowball Bridge" Edition

[Sterling Archer]

I don't think you understand how truly terrible Luke Schenn is at being an NHL hockey player.

That or he's a Leafs fan. They're good at both overhyping players and making bad trades.

 

[MD thaivuN]

I'm disgusted how the whole Subban negotiation is turning into a media fiasco.

 

[onebighockeyfan]

I'm disgusted how the whole Subban negotiation is turning into a media fiasco.

PK just put a lot of oil on the fire...Tja.

 

[DAChampion]

He did come out looking like a guy who thinks very highly of himself, that's for sure!

In my entire life, I've never met anybody who's amazing at what they do who had no confidence and no pride.

There's a simple reason for that. If you don't have confidence, if you don't have pride, you can't excel.

proved yourself to be a genuine top 10D

He doesn't need to prove he's top-10 before being paid like he's top-60.

publicity hungry little brat.

 

[habtastic]

The difference between Subban's confidence and that of other players is that he speaks his mind. You can be sure that all players in the NHL as great as Subban think highly of themselves, they just don't usually talk about it publicly, which is a disservice to the game, with the exception of the Atlantic division which does have some trash talking.

NHL fans don't get the same exciting rivalries as NBA fans for example. At no time in the next 10 years will you hear one of Seguin or Galchenyuk call the other overrated, even though those two could become the rivalry of the decade, that is because they were raised and are continuously taught to be boring, in true stereotypical Canadian fashion. If more NHL players had personalities, the game would do better marketing-wise.


He is indeed too good to play for 3 million.

The Habs had him at $850,000 for two years. That is sufficient extraction. They should now pay him what he's worth.

It seems that what you want from an NHL player is to go all reality TV and give us entertainment. I love Roenick and Roy and guys like that. VERY different from holding out after a lockout, claiming you're worth more, endorsements, blah blah. That's not being confident. That's showing a lack of context for where you are and who you play for. Granted, the past management has not lived up to that to their fullest, BUT there has always been the understanding that this is an organization that, if we bring you up through the ranks, you pay your dues.

You like it just because he's being contrarian? So where you see a brave soul, I see an egomaniac. It's just a matter of preference, I suppose. Neither of us is objectively right. I just have MB's style of thinking about these matters, however I do think they should negotiate rather than seemingly be at two ends of the spectrum. (Which is how PK makes it sound...meehan too.)

You don't think the NHL has had awesome rivalries, even personal ones? I don't know what league you're watching. Personally I think the NBA is a fluff league. Personal rivalries, yeah...those don't exist at ALL in the NHL. You can read lips, right? There are too many examples to give and in any case, that's the TYPE of rivalry I prefer, the NHL kind, NOT the NBA. PK is absolutely great in terms of personality on the ice. He is not being so great in handling this situation. Two very different things. We're both cheering for the same team, so it's not like I have a greater interest in him getting a certain contract because I DON'T like him or I want the Habs to fail or vice versa. We both want PK as our blueline #1-2. That doesn't mean that if he says the Rocket was overrated and that he (PK) would have smoked him every time, that it's a positive example of just speaking your mind, cuz if he does, he can GTFO. Being candid doesn't make you better if the material sucks.

He's not too good to play for 3M now and then 6M for who knows how long after. I am a firm believer in the fact that the Habs organization rewards you for your loyalty. I think it wouldn't kill him to pay attention to that if he wants a long career as a Hab.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

Who wouldn't in that situation?

I don't think I would to be honest. I'm not throwing stones but he does come off very 'me first'. I've defended and sided him through all the crap he's been through but I just happen to think he's not coming off very well. That's all.

Plus having a chip on your shoulder about let's say for argument's sake 3 million as opposed to 5.5 isn't something that inspires my empathy. I get the whole he should get what he's entitled and there's nothing wrong with getting every last penny, etc. but that doesn't mean that I should like how you're going about it.

I'm not convinced that a bridge contract is a slap in the face to PK which to me is the lens I look through this whole situatuation.

I think you and I are on the same page in that it's not the figures per say, but rather how he's handling the situation. Others see it as confidence. (?) I see it as thinking he's too good to play for 3M for two years and that the Habs brand will suffer without him. That's just punching your fans and organization in the face. Using your popularity as leverage?

The ironic thing about this whole thread is that EVERYONE loves PK. It's really about people's attitude's towards how someone in his position should act. Humble (and a multi-millionaire) or cocky (and not playing hockey). It would be really great if he helped his new GM out, showed that he IS the real deal for a further two years at a very reasonable price and then asked for the big ticket. In fact, that's the type of person I thought he was, hence frustration.

Yeah that's more or less how I feel. I don't like how he keeps appealing to the fans. It may very well be genuine but it still feels too political for my tastes.

Just to be clear, just because I don't exactly like where he's coming from doesn't mean I necessarily think he's being a baby or whatever but like you said I didn't expect this type of hard ball from him over something that in my opinion isn't that big a deal.

 

[onebighockeyfan]

In my entire life, I've never met anybody who's amazing at what they do who had no confidence and no pride.

There's a simple reason for that. If you don't have confidence, if you don't have pride, you can't excel.


He doesn't need to prove he's top-10 before being paid like he's top-60.

Top 60 don't get 6 million. You can have pride and confidence and not provide quotes like this to the press, this is at the Lance Armstrong level. Many players excel and don't have to let law it all out there through Stubbs. PK's timing was also awful concerning he's sitting at home.

 

[onebighockeyfan]

In my entire life, I've never met anybody who's amazing at what they do who had no confidence and no pride.

There's a simple reason for that. If you don't have confidence, if you don't have pride, you can't excel.


He doesn't need to prove he's top-10 before being paid like he's top-60.

I just look on Cap Geek. The ~50th highest paid Ds make around 4 million.

 

[DAChampion]

It seems that what you want from an NHL player is to go all reality TV and give us entertainment. I love Roenick and Roy and guys like that. VERY different from holding out after a lockout, claiming you're worth more, endorsements, blah blah. That's not being confident. That's showing a lack of context for where you are and who you play for. Granted, the past management has not lived up to that to their fullest, BUT there has always been the understanding that this is an organization that, if we bring you up through the ranks, you pay your dues.

He *HAS* paid his dues. He was paid $850,000 the last two years.

You like it just because he's being contrarian?

PK is not a contrarian, he's asking to be paid his value.

That doesn't mean that if he says the Rocket was overrated and that he (PK) would have smoked him every time, that it's a positive example of just speaking your mind, cuz if he does, he can GTFO.

He's not saying anything like that. He's saying he's a good player in all situations who wants to be paid what he's worth.

I am a firm believer in the fact that the Habs organization rewards you for your loyalty.

You and I have not been following the same organization the past decade.

PK Subban has been very loyal. He was giving 100% when the rest of the team was not --- what you call "playing by his own rules" -- and he did this while making $850,000. Now Habs management wants to "reward" him by having him play for (1/2 - 2/3) of what he's worth.

They do not reward loyalty.

 

[DAChampion]

I just look on Cap Geek. The ~50th highest paid Ds make around 4 million.

Exactly, and Bergevin is offering ~3.0.

 

[MD thaivuN]

I Have absolutely no idea how anyone can produce such negative reactions out of that Stubbs article.

It's just like that time when Subban admitted that he didn't perform well and then RDS was sh***ing on me and hoping he should be scratched.

 

[onebighockeyfan]

He *HAS* paid his dues. He was paid $850,000 the last two years.


PK is not a contrarian, he's asking to be paid his value.


He's not saying anything like that. He's saying he's a good player in all situations who wants to be paid what he's worth.


You and I have not been following the same organization the past decade.

PK Subban has been very loyal. He was giving 100% when the rest of the team was not --- what you call "playing by his own rules" -- and he did this while making $850,000. Now Habs management wants to "reward" him by having him play for (1/2 - 2/3) of what he's worth.

They do not reward loyalty.

PK was full of himself in this interview. Way over the top. I would not be surprised hs teammates spill their coffee and roll their eyes when they read this.

 

[onebighockeyfan]

Exactly, and Bergevin is offering ~3.0.

Have you been following or what? Apparently they are 3 million appart...do the math!

 

[PricePkPatch*]

PK was full of himself in this interview. Way over the top. I would not be surprised hs teammates spill their coffee and roll their eyes when they read this.

My god, so you CAN read people's mind just based on their reported words?

You should go to the politics board. We're trying to see if Obama is genuine about a few issues. We could use someone with your skills.

 

[onebighockeyfan]

My god, so you CAN read people's mind just based on their reported words?

You should go to the politics board. We're trying to see if Obama is genuine about a few issues. We could use someone with your skills.

wtf, it's his own quotes! He said it then he must mean it. Where did you come up with this mind reading nonsense?

I will not get into gun control politics on here, and neither should you. It's a hockey forum.

 

[PricePkPatch*]

wtf, it's his own quotes! He said it then he must mean it. Where did you come up with this mind reading nonsense?

Well, you can obviously know what Subban was full of himself in the interview, rather than being genuine. Clearly, you must have mind-reading abilities

Tell me, when Obama said he wants to increase gun control measures in the USA, was he genuine or he simply wanted to exploit the recent tragedies?

 

[onebighockeyfan]

Well, you can obviously know what Subban was full of himself in the interview, rather than being genuine. Clearly, you must have mind-reading abilities

Tell me, when Obama said he wants to increase gun control measures in the USA, was he genuine or he simply wanted to exploit the recent tragedies?

OK, then he was genuinely full of himself. It was over the top and the timing terrible. Antoher example that he needs to learn how to shut up.

 

[Gros Bonhomme]

Man this whole circus is giving me stomach ulcers.

 

[PricePkPatch*]

Man this whole circus is giving me stomach ulcers.

You mean the Subban situation itself, or the fan *****slap fight?

 

[Gros Bonhomme]

You mean the Subban situation itself, or the fan *****slap fight?

The whole thing

 

[WG]

Not entirely sure how signing bonuses work in the new CBA, so I stand to be corrected on the feasibility of this idea.

Let's assume that the only way PK signs is via the bridge contract and let's further assume that the team will come off the (reported) 2/$6M or whatever and the two sides could agree on, say, 2 yr/$8.8M (4.4 cap hit).

If the Habs give PK 2@$4.4 then actual cash paid out is really only 6.6M (half of 4.4 this year, the full 4.4 next year).

What if you structure the contract as such

Contract, 2 yrs, $4.8M (1.6M in 2013, 3.2M in 2013-14). Signing bonuses of 3M in 2013, 1M in 2013-14 on top of that.

Contract is still 2 yr, $8.8M (4.4 cap). PK's cash in hand, however, is $8M (he loses half of the 2013 'contract' but keeps all of the signing bonus money and the 2013-14 salary). Same cap hit as before, and in terms of cash in hand for Subban this is almost equivalent to a 2/$11m bridge deal.

And before anyone goes all Mitt Romney on me, I do realize this is cash out of ownership's pocket, and yes, I do expect the guy who charges $150 tix, $10 'ticket convenience fee' and $12 beer to pony up and get one of his better players signed.

 

[Monctonscout]

Some of the crap on here is beyond ridiculous.

This is pro sports, not your neighborhood business.

In pro sports guys get paid as much for potential as performance.

You're not honestly going to tell me that Doughty DESERVED his 8 year 56 mil contract coming off a 40 point season and 1st round exit are you?

...or That Hall DESERVED 7 years and 42 mil coming off 42 and 53 point seasons?

...or that Zajac DESERVED 8 years and 46 mil coming off 6 point(in 15 games) and 44 point(in 82 games) seasons?

Either those GM's are completely off their rocker or those guys are paid on potential. It's not hard to see why teams do that. They'd rather have guys signed long term at a reasonable cap number than lose them to UFA in their prime(Suter Parise Richards etc) or have to pay them huge contracts(see Lecavalier Nash Vanek Weber) to keep them.

Comparing PK to Del Zotto makes no sense at all. PK is a lot closer to where Doughty was in 2011 than where Del Zotto is.

Del Zotto struggled in 10-11 and put up 11 points in 47 games and was demoted to the AHL most of the year. In 11-12 he had a breathrough year offensively(41 points in 77 games and +20) but he played much more sheltered minutes than Girardi Staal and McDonough.

With Markov out(even when he came back he wasn't getting tough matchups) and Hamrlik gone/Gill traded, Subban played most of the year with Gorges and got PP PK and tough matchups against top lines(24:18/game 36 points in 81 games and +9).

Don't get me wrong, I hope they don't have to give him a Doughty contract and I'd love 6 years 24 mil or even 6 years up to 30 mil to buy up UFA years, I think MB is nuts if he thinks 2 years 5.5 mil is a reasonable offer given what young players are signing. They could sign him to a "bridge" contract 2 years and 9-9.5 mil but then they'll end up paying a 6-7 mil cap hit for sure.

Subban has been nothing short of a great ambassador fort the team and one of the better performers the last 2 years despite at times getting little help, the way some fans throw him under the bus for trying to get himself a good contract is as cowardly as can be.

 

[AcadiaAxeMan]

Julien Brisebois handles the numbers

That's why we kept Julien Brisebois - The Numbers Guys with contracts - the GM doesn't have to "do it all" and he has others / advisors to rely on - He is the Face of HABS administration but he is NOT the only guy!

Both Stan Bowman and Bergevin himself said that Bergevin is "not a numbers guy", of course his team isn't living under a rock but negotiating player contracts is something Meehan does every single day, and he had no problem getting Markov and Emelin numbers they were happy with - the latter taking one of those mystical bridge contracts. Why do you think so many great players hire Meehan? Because he gets them paid, and you don't do that by making ridiculous demands.

 

[Leon Lucius Black]

If that interview was with Jamie Benn or Ryan O'Reilly people would say "oh they're right, they deserve to be paid for what they've done" but instead since it is PK he's cocky, a prima dona, has a bad attitude, isn't a team player etc etc...

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I don't know the numbers, but one thing I do know is that PK Subban does in fact have a bigger head than I thought and is turning hockey and more specifically the brand of the Habs into some cheap marketing issue. What he's worth? Really sucks to hear him talk in that tone, usually reserved for players of his age and years in the league from other leagues. That's what I love about the NHL, you don't see this kind of garbage from the "kids." Yes, large contracts have been handed out to young players, but because the organizations are overeager. I don't think I've ever seen this kind of "What would the Habs marketing dept. do without me?" attitude. If he can't play for 2 friggin years at a price like (let's just say it's "low", like 3M, which isn't really low IMO), before knowing (cuz he's so confident) he's going to get a 6M or more contract, I'm sorry, that's greedy. You have your whole NHL career to play, PK, seriously, I do hope that when the numbers are revealed, it doesn't make you look like a greedy self-important d-bag. (I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now as it relates to figures.) I know he also means on-ice worth, but at this point in his career, it's a show of goodwill that goes a LONG way. (You're helping yourself to by allowing your organization to build that winning team that you claim to want.) Two years! Just take the 3M and play like a boss. Is it the end of the world?

Still, the attitude, trying to play the "I love the Habs" while simultaneously saying "...but I don't love them THAT much" is aggravating. Special player, yes. Deserves large money in the grand scheme, I believe yes. Do his endorsement deals need the Habs more than the Habs marketing needs him? I think so big time. Just wish he'd be a team player in all senses of the word. It hurts to have your faith in the integrity of a hero dashed. And no, I wouldn't do the same thing in his place. And no, I won't be able to accept him being traded.

Flip it around, we all know that Subban is worth more than 3 mil. Are the Canadiens being greedy trying to get him for that money? You want him to take less than he's worth but you 'wont accept him being traded'.... How does that make sense?

I don't see how that changes anything. If there's an unwritten rule about doing offersheet, and some GMs don't obey it already, they won't change because now the unwritten rule is because of the lockout they just came out of.

I think teams are aware that they'd be matched and don't want to rock the boat. Last time it actually happened Burke threw up a big stink. Maybe he'll get an offer but I don't expect it to happen. It's not a reflection on his abililties though as we saw Drew Doughty go through the same situation without an offer.

So?

Every player in his age range from Del Zotto to Kulikov have signed bridge contracts of 2 years at 2.5M$/yr what makes PK different? He played 23mins a game in a team that finished last.

Michael Del Zotto is not in his range. Would you trade PK straight up for him or Kulikov?

Yeah... I wouldn't do it either.

If Subban really valued the team, he would accept that 2 year 3 M per. Then he would easily be signed long term. Even though he showed great stuff in 2 years, last year he started bad. Is he really worth 5 M per? Did he score 20 goals/season. Subban is an RFA. PK's points are good but not worth 5 M/season even though he plays big minutes.

I think Subban is far too greedy. From what RDS is reporting, Meehan suggested him to sign that 2 year deal. I do believe that the new HABS management will not want PK to become a distraction. Management wants to set a new mentality.

If the gap is big between both, PK will be traded. Frankly, I think the Habs will benefit. If Bergevin plays his cards right, I'm sure they can get high quality picks and a top winger or D. If not, this can turn out to bite the Habs in the future.

Really? If he really valued the team would he accept playing the season for a hundred bucks? Would he accept playing for free? At what point is he allowed to look out for his own best interests and not get slammed?

2 years at 3 mil per is ridiculous. Trying to say that he's putting himself above the team and being selfish for not accepting a lowball offer is flat out stupid. And if that's the offer the Habs are sticking to (and who knows what's going on there) then your anger is misplaced.

He worth 6 millions and he knows it. He brings to the table what a 6 mil defenceman brings. Bergevin is trying to have a deal like the Del Zotto one where he underpay the guy. It is not because some guy get screwed that Subban have to get screwed. He is smarter than that. I dont get the "he is greedy" comment. He knows his value and he wants a fair deal. He is the face of the montreal canadiens. The highlight reel show and the one that is selling stuff. I dont know why Bergerin is taking so much time before signing him. A 1st defenceman doesnt come easily. When you get one, you dont get rid of him. I dont get the rethoric of some people saying he must be traded if he doesnt agree to a bridge contract.

6 mil is pretty rich in my opinion. I don't think he's there yet. 4.5 to 5? Okay. But 6 mil is going overboard. Hopefully he's not asking for this.

That being said, he's closer to a 6 mil defenseman than he is to a 3 mil defenseman.

The Habs had him at $850,000 for two years. That is sufficient extraction. They should now pay him what he's worth.

Good point. The Habs have already enjoyed his services at rock bottom rates. If anything you'd think that we'd be willing to go up a little bit from what we normally would because of this.