P.K. Subban Thread - 5.0 - The "Doughty Money Vs. Lowball Bridge" Edition

[Mr. Hab]

This reminds me of Mario Tremblay VS Patrick Roy...

Ego vs ego...

We're not paying to watch Bergevin negotiate...

Do what it takes to get Subban on the ice.

5-6 year contract.

**** this 2 year rip-off contract bridge nonsense...
Get Subban on a 5-6 year contract so we don't have to do this in 2 years...



IF Subban gets traded...it will come back to bite us in the ***, no doubt about it. Can't believe someone was mentioning Schenn or Carlson for Subban. (but I'd definitely take Carlson over Schenn, that's for sure...Schenn is reminding me of Komisarek...a decent AHLer...overpaid NHL dmen).

p.s.: I wouldn't give the bank to Subban, but 3mil/year is a joke...especially that he was making 850 000 in the last two years (Markov was making 5.75mil to help the team with his crutches). For the record...I'm a huge fan of Subban on the ice...not off the ice (he's a cocky ****ing *****...his parents should teach him about humble pie...too many NHLers need to learn about how to eat lots of humble pie... they think 'cause they're making lots of money that they're above everyone). IF Subban does get traded...we better not be getting crap like Kovalenko, Rucinsky, and Thibault (during that Roy trade). You can see how our Habs defended Gorges (we all love mr.humble)...but no one every defends Subban must be a reason (pretty obvious)... wouldn't be surprised if Subban asks for a trade...we're ****ed. Subban is the best dman since I can't remember...but money and contracts are now ****ing our Habs. If it's not injuries...it's contracts/money. Oye ve!

 

[Tuggy]

I am beyond tired of waiting for a deal to be done. Everytime I get a text alert from TSN I'm hoping it's to tell me that PK has signed.

But I don't see anyway the Habs trade him. I think it would be a HUGE mistake.

 

[Roulin]

That's why we kept Julien Brisebois - The Numbers Guys with contracts - the GM doesn't have to "do it all" and he has others / advisors to rely on - He is the Face of HABS administration but he is NOT the only guy!

Brisebois is in Tampa, signing Hedman to a reasonable extension and finding Conacher. We replaced him with Boivin's son.

 

[Monctonscout]

Brisebois is in Tampa, signing Hedman to a reasonable extension and finding Conacher. We replaced him with Boivin's son.

Why would the assisatnt GM be scouting players? Wouldn't that be their scouts? ...or was it Gauthier that had all those great picks and not Timmins & staff?

Hedman got a nice extension because he hadn't been that good so far.

 

[Roulin]

Why would the assisatnt GM be scouting players? Wouldn't that be their scouts? ...or was it Gauthier that had all those great picks and not Timmins & staff?

Hedman got a nice extension because he hadn't been that good so far.

Conacher went pro as an AHL signing with the Norfolk Admirals, who were (at the time) GM'd by Brisebois. Undrafted, like Desharnais when Brisebois was Hamilton's GM. I'm sure amateur scouts had a lot of input in both signings, just letting the poster know what Brisebois has been up to.

 

[Agnostic]

Some of the crap on here is beyond ridiculous.

This is pro sports, not your neighborhood business.

In pro sports guys get paid as much for potential as performance.

You're not honestly going to tell me that Doughty DESERVED his 8 year 56 mil contract coming off a 40 point season and 1st round exit are you?

...or That Hall DESERVED 7 years and 42 mil coming off 42 and 53 point seasons?

...or that Zajac DESERVED 8 years and 46 mil coming off 6 point(in 15 games) and 44 point(in 82 games) seasons?

Either those GM's are completely off their rocker or those guys are paid on potential. It's not hard to see why teams do that. They'd rather have guys signed long term at a reasonable cap number than lose them to UFA in their prime(Suter Parise Richards etc) or have to pay them huge contracts(see Lecavalier Nash Vanek Weber) to keep them.

Comparing PK to Del Zotto makes no sense at all. PK is a lot closer to where Doughty was in 2011 than where Del Zotto is.

Del Zotto struggled in 10-11 and put up 11 points in 47 games and was demoted to the AHL most of the year. In 11-12 he had a breathrough year offensively(41 points in 77 games and +20) but he played much more sheltered minutes than Girardi Staal and McDonough.

With Markov out(even when he came back he wasn't getting tough matchups) and Hamrlik gone/Gill traded, Subban played most of the year with Gorges and got PP PK and tough matchups against top lines(24:18/game 36 points in 81 games and +9).

Don't get me wrong, I hope they don't have to give him a Doughty contract and I'd love 6 years 24 mil or even 6 years up to 30 mil to buy up UFA years, I think MB is nuts if he thinks 2 years 5.5 mil is a reasonable offer given what young players are signing. They could sign him to a "bridge" contract 2 years and 9-9.5 mil but then they'll end up paying a 6-7 mil cap hit for sure.

Subban has been nothing short of a great ambassador fort the team and one of the better performers the last 2 years despite at times getting little help, the way some fans throw him under the bus for trying to get himself a good contract is as cowardly as can be.

Add Carey Price to the list of players paid off potential, so Bergevin doesn't need to go past his most recent re-up to find an example of this. He's already done it. Early performances by Price says it might pay off.

He's playing with fire after swimming in gasoline.

 

[Rosso Scuderia]

I don't think PK is the kind of guy that will sit on his contract if he gets a long one. He's a competitor, he will help this team no matter how long his contract is. I don't think it's that big of a risk to sign PK long term unless he really has major attitude problem in the lockeroom which I doubt.

He's the core of this team with Price and MaxPac, I don't know why MB doesn't want to give him long term.

 

[onebighockeyfan]

I don't think PK is the kind of guy that will sit on his contract if he gets a long one. He's a competitor, he will help this team no matter how long his contract is. I don't think it's that big of a risk to sign PK long term unless he really has major attitude problem in the lockeroom which I doubt.

He's the core of this team with Price and MaxPac, I don't know why MB doesn't want to give him long term.

Maybe MB has some doubts about PK, whatever they are, and he would like to get to know him a little bit more before committing long-term.

 

[Leon Lucius Black]

Maybe MB has some doubts about PK, whatever they are, and he would like to get to know him a little bit more before committing long-term.

I don't get how you'd even have doubts over him, I love Pacioretty but I'd be more concerned over giving Pacioretty a long-term deal after only one good offensive year.

Even IF Subban struggled during a long-term contract there would be many teams willing to take a change on him even if he had a big contract.

 

[HTTP 400]

Maybe MB has some doubts about PK, whatever they are, and he would like to get to know him a little bit more before committing long-term.

Not "maybe". That's exactly what he said, way before the situation became a circus.

http://www.lapresse.ca/sports/hocke...des-choses-chez-pk-que-jai-besoin-de-voir.php

Bergevin : "Subban est un bon jeune défenseur avec beaucoup de potentiel, mais j'arrive à Montréal et il y a des choses que j'ai besoin de voir"

Subban is a good young defensemen, with a lot of potential, but I just arrived in Montreal and there are things I need to see.

 

[HomaridII]

Dave Stubbs ‏@Dave_Stubbs
Some wouldn't throw a party RT @NHL_STATS: @Dave_Stubbs If PK gets a lucrative long term contract, how will this be perceived in the room?

 

[FisherKing]

If an impasse has been reached, and an agreement regarding a long term or bridge contract can't be reached, wouldn't it make sense for both sides to simply sign a 1 year deal in which Bergeron could give a bit more and PK accept a little less and gives all parties 1 year to reevaluate their respective positions. Say 1 yr at $4-$4.5 M. Seems like a logical resolution to the matter. Of course what is unfortunate is that due to the late start in the season, they in fact wouldn't have the benefit of a full year but rather only half a one but I expect that would be better than both sitting on opposite sides of the room which is no advantage to either side.

 

[Kriss E]

I don't see how that changes anything. If there's an unwritten rule about doing offersheet, and some GMs don't obey it already, they won't change because now the unwritten rule is because of the lockout they just came out of.

There is actually, unless I'm mistaken.
But if you sign a player to an offer sheet, the total amount of the contract will always be divided by the first five years only. Sign PK to a 50M 7y contract, that's a 10M cap hit. That's huge.
Also, there's no more front loaded contracts. So that makes it tougher.

In the end, any GM offering an offersheet would have to offer something reasonable, and so, the possibility of Bergevin matching it increases. There's no point in offering an offersheet that you think will be matched.

Under the old CBA, I'm pretty sure he would have gotten offers by now.

 

[Agnostic]

Dave Stubbs ‏@Dave_Stubbs
Some wouldn't throw a party RT @NHL_STATS: @Dave_Stubbs If PK gets a lucrative long term contract, how will this be perceived in the room?

The "in the room" BS is media soap opera.

 

[417]

Dave Stubbs ‏@Dave_Stubbs
Some wouldn't throw a party RT @NHL_STATS: @Dave_Stubbs If PK gets a lucrative long term contract, how will this be perceived in the room?

That's the delicate part of this negotiation...man, I really feel for Bergevin.

I get both parties point of view...but at this point, they're just going to have to come to an agreement

Subban will have to accept the 2 year deal, anyways, there's only 40 or so games left in this year and can he start negotiating his long term deal as soon as next year.

While the Habs will have to offer more than the 2.75M they're reportedly offering him, probably start at 4.5M.

 

[Kriss E]

Dave Stubbs ‏@Dave_Stubbs
Some wouldn't throw a party RT @NHL_STATS: @Dave_Stubbs If PK gets a lucrative long term contract, how will this be perceived in the room?

Enough about this ''in the room'' BS. It's such god damn crap.
The players just went through a lockout vs the owners because they wanted what they perceived was their fair value. Actually, a bunch of them were vocal about how the owners were completely unfair and it was ridiculous/disrespectful.
So now that PK is in a dispute with management because he wants his fair value, they are going to turn on him??? How does that make any freaking sense?
Why would the players turn on him instead of tapping him on the back considering that's exactly what they all fought for?
Oh right, he threw his towel on the floor once and puts music not everybody likes, so they're gonna be pissed at him.
Enough of this stupid garbage.

 

[Marc the Habs Fan]

Not sure if this was posted:

Dave Stubbs ‏@Dave_Stubbs
And those who believe #Habs @PKSubban1 is demanding Doughty money? Absolutely not true

Considering Stubbs has spoken to Subban several times, I would take that as fact.

 

[HTTP 400]

That's the delicate part of this negotiation...man, I really feel for Bergevin.

I get both parties point of view...but at this point, they're just going to have to come to an agreement

Subban will have to accept the 2 year deal, anyways, there's only 40 or so games left in this year and can he start negotiating his long term deal as soon as next year.

While the Habs will have to offer more than the 2.75M they're reportedly offering him, probably start at 4.5M.

4M per, 2 year deal. Seems so easy to me!

 

[coolasprICE]

Subban will have to accept the 2 year deal, anyways, there's only 40 or so games left in this year and can he start negotiating his long term deal as soon as next year.

Many are saying how Bergevin is in full control. I disagree.

If PK remains strong he'll eventually get traded and he'll get his long term deal.

 

[Miller Time]

That's the delicate part of this negotiation...man, I really feel for Bergevin.

I get both parties point of view...but at this point, they're just going to have to come to an agreement

Subban will have to accept the 2 year deal, anyways, there's only 40 or so games left in this year and can he start negotiating his long term deal as soon as next year.

While the Habs will have to offer more than the 2.75M they're reportedly offering him, probably start at 4.5M.

MB is just making it worse by dragging this out...

The longer he waits, the harder it is for him to cave bc it sends bad message to others that if u play hardball, he'll cave.

For subban, with the lockout prep, he was already getting comfortable with the idea of no hockey this year... Think Meehan will let him give in now? Doubt it.

Habs have way more to lose, no subban this year hurts us, & subban can go play in Europe (I'm sure his khl offers are substantial) to get "playing" again... Can the habs really afford to let his value slip away just to prove a point?

Just suck it up, get the 6 year deal signed, and star spinning the positive PR already

 

[Jay Wolf]

Dave Stubbs ‏@Dave_Stubbs
Some wouldn't throw a party RT @NHL_STATS: @Dave_Stubbs If PK gets a lucrative long term contract, how will this be perceived in the room?

Such a ridiculous question! It will be perceived in the room exactly the way it is: a talented young player getting signed to a longterm deal. As if that's never happened before! The assumption that hockey players are petty, vain, covetous children that need constant reassurance that they're as good as everyone else is ludicrous!! They'll be happy to have him back in the fold. Period!

If this creates a rift in the room, perhaps there are some people that should mind their own ****ing business!

 

[Marc the Habs Fan]

Not entirely sure how signing bonuses work in the new CBA, so I stand to be corrected on the feasibility of this idea.

Let's assume that the only way PK signs is via the bridge contract and let's further assume that the team will come off the (reported) 2/$6M or whatever and the two sides could agree on, say, 2 yr/$8.8M (4.4 cap hit).

If the Habs give PK 2@$4.4 then actual cash paid out is really only 6.6M (half of 4.4 this year, the full 4.4 next year).

What if you structure the contract as such

Contract, 2 yrs, $4.8M (1.6M in 2013, 3.2M in 2013-14). Signing bonuses of 3M in 2013, 1M in 2013-14 on top of that.

Contract is still 2 yr, $8.8M (4.4 cap). PK's cash in hand, however, is $8M (he loses half of the 2013 'contract' but keeps all of the signing bonus money and the 2013-14 salary). Same cap hit as before, and in terms of cash in hand for Subban this is almost equivalent to a 2/$11m bridge deal.

And before anyone goes all Mitt Romney on me, I do realize this is cash out of ownership's pocket, and yes, I do expect the guy who charges $150 tix, $10 'ticket convenience fee' and $12 beer to pony up and get one of his better players signed.

Pretty sure you are correct that this could be done, the lockout and losing a part of the ''salary'' is why Suter and Parise got a HUGE signing bonus of 10 M each this season when they signed with the Wild.

 

[Tuggy]

Not sure if this was posted:

Dave Stubbs ‏@Dave_Stubbs
And those who believe #Habs @PKSubban1 is demanding Doughty money? Absolutely not true

Considering Stubbs has spoken to Subban several times, I would take that as fact.

I trust Stubbs' word more than anyone else when it comes to the Habs. That includes McKenzie, Dreger, Marinaro etc.

If I had to wager a guess as to what we'll looking at right now...MB is likely offering something in the 2.75 to 3.75M range at 2 years. PK is likely looking for something like 5 years (or more) at 5-6M (something similar to Tyler Myers). This is my best guess.

Where it lands, who knows. But I don't think either party is thinking trade at this time.

 

[Kriss E]

That's the delicate part of this negotiation...man, I really feel for Bergevin.

I get both parties point of view...but at this point, they're just going to have to come to an agreement

Subban will have to accept the 2 year deal, anyways, there's only 40 or so games left in this year and can he start negotiating his long term deal as soon as next year.

While the Habs will have to offer more than the 2.75M they're reportedly offering him, probably start at 4.5M.

Dreger was on TSN 690 this morning and if I recall correctly he said PK wouldn't have a problem taking a 2year deal, but the problem is that even for a short term deal, he's looking at a similar cap hit to the long term deal, which makes complete sense.

As it was reported, Habs are trying to get away with a short term deal, at a cheap price. It seems they just want to squeeze two more years out of PK.
Montreal has enjoyed PK at an overwhelmingly cheap price these past two years. Their way of thanking him and acknowledging that, is by trying to squeak another 2years at a very cheap price. It's ridiculous.

They have to negotiate. But when Bobby Mac says they are 2-3M apart, after saying Habs are offering him 2.75M, this means PK is looking to get around 4.5-5.5M. How are they still so far apart though? Why have they not come to a just middle? 2y at 3.75-4.25M. I don't see why PK would refuse such a deal, especially after his words. So you have to think, it's more likely that Bergevin doesn't want to negotiate.
If he did, you'd have to also think there's no way he'd let a week go by before starting talks again.
You want to make a deal? PK is at home doing nothing and waiting, set up a meeting ASAP and don't leave until you guys come to an agreement. Easily doable.

 

[417]

MB is just making it worse by dragging this out...
The longer he waits, the harder it is for him to cave bc it sends bad message to others that if u play hardball, he'll cave.

For subban, with the lockout prep, he was already getting comfortable with the idea of no hockey this year... Think Meehan will let him give in now? Doubt it.

Habs have way more to lose, no subban this year hurts us, & subban can go play in Europe (I'm sure his khl offers are substantial) to get "playing" again... Can the habs really afford to let his value slip away just to prove a point?

Just suck it up, get the 6 year deal signed, and star spinning the positive PR already

Both sides are making it worse at this point...

This is like Ross & Rachel from Friends lol...we all know you two love each other, just stop with the charades already.

The Habs are playing hardball with Subban because they know how much he's invested in their organization, he LOVES the Habs and if there was any doubt about it, just read Stubbs article

While PK is playing hardball beacuse he believes he's way too important to the Habs organization, on and off the ice and he's betting on that...

But both sides need to look at the end game here...