Out of Town Thread Part XVIII

[Miller Time]

They didn't tank? What do you think they did to get those three 1st round picks in one year? They just managed to only suck for 3 years instead of the 5 we are heading to. They picked a direction and gutted the team. They in fact did SOMETHING. We have not. Just because they traded a few away in june and october doesn't mean it wasn't a tank job for the next season. A lot smarter than letting your FA walk for nothing.

Preach

It's so easy to see & get... The whole idea that it takes years of lottery finish for a commited rebuild is nonsense.

clarity of intention & direction, keeping (or adding) the right veteran leadership & coaching to ensure the right locker room mentality for the young players being integrated, and a few schrewd/tactical asset moves...

That's all it really takes, especially when you can spend to the cap, to get enough talent in place to return to competitiveness quickly...

It's our type of approach that drags it out and dooms a franchise to ongoing mediocrity

 

[Miller Time]

Sweeney took a lot of flak for that summer. A lot. And while moving on from Lucic was a brilliant move getting Senyshyn for Hamilton really wasnt.

Anyways, 2015 didn't make the Bruins the team they are. Hitting a homerun with Pastrnak and McAvoy in 2014 and 2016 and the remnants of the 2011 championship team (Chara, Rask, Bergeron, Marchand, Krejci) make the team what they are.

For reference in 2015-16 the bruins missed the playoffs with 93 points, picking 14th overall (McAvoy)
Imagine what great scouting and development could do with our 15th OA pick...

2015 they secured 6! picks from the top 60 (3x1st, 3x2nd)... 2016 they secured an extra 1st...

Trading away Lucic, Boychuk, Hamilton in the process.

2 years, 9 top 60 picks... Debrusk, Carlo, Macavoy & cap space (to then roll the dice on moves like Nash, Backes, and to re-sign core pieces like Marchand).

Also fired CJ, 2 1/2 years removed from a finals appearance (which was 2yrs after the cup win), and brought in a coach that fit the personnel & direction they wanted.

I hate the B's, but they did one heck of a reset following the same road map many of us have been praying the Habs would figure out...

& Thing is, they made lots of mistakes. That's what some who defend MB at all costs don't seem to get... Mistakes are fine, normal, and expected... But you gotta have a clear & simple plan, and the conviction to follow it.

It was a ore

 

[FormerLurker]

They didn't tank? What do you think they did to get those three 1st round picks in one year? They just managed to only suck for 3 years instead of the 5 we are heading to. They picked a direction and gutted the team. They in fact did SOMETHING. We have not. Just because they traded a few away in june and october doesn't mean it wasn't a tank job for the next season. A lot smarter than letting your FA walk for nothing.

They traded Lucic and a 22 year old Hamilton for the extra first rounders. That's not gutting the team or tanking, it's just good asset management. If they had gutted the team, they wouldn't still have all of Bergeron, Marchand, Krejci, Chara, and Rask.

Oh, and the Bruins do let free agents walk for nothing. They acquired Brett Connolly for two second rounders at the 2015 trade deadline, and he walked in 2016.

 

[LaP]

What they did was draft well. Pasta @ 25, McAvoy @ 14. Krug undrafted, Carlo second round. Gut the team? They basically have the same core minus Thomas that won the Cup. They have actually been trying to win the past few years , see Backes, Belesky and Nash deals.

We have sucked because we our amateur scouting blows. And when MB had a solid core he was too chicken**** to give up some futures to make a run.

They also brought them in the NHL quickly so they could get NHL experience before their vets became too old (Pasternak at 18, MacAvoy at 19, Carlo at 19 and Debrusk at 20 but almost 21). They did not let them rot in the AHL for 3-4 years just because they had to "earn" their spot by being 10 times better than some scrubs working hard.

They drafted them, they believed in them and they iced them. That's how you develop young players. The second you start doubting your kids you should fire your scouting team instead of doing like us and blame the kids for being kids. Meanwhile in Montreal Jordan Weal will play 15 minutes a game ...

 

[koyvoo]

Overtime goal predictions-

Kerfoot
Donskoi

 

[koyvoo]

Landeskog wins it.

Going back to SJ for game 7.

 

[Archijerej]

Preach

It's so easy to see & get... The whole idea that it takes years of lottery finish for a commited rebuild is nonsense.

clarity of intention & direction, keeping (or adding) the right veteran leadership & coaching to ensure the right locker room mentality for the young players being integrated, and a few schrewd/tactical asset moves...

That's all it really takes, especially when you can spend to the cap, to get enough talent in place to return to competitiveness quickly...

It's our type of approach that drags it out and dooms a franchise to ongoing mediocrity

How were the Bruins moves different from us trading Pacioretty and Galchenyuk?

 

[Archijerej]

Trading Petry would be good asset management. His value will never be that high. He's getting old. He slowed down at the end of the season and was slowly reverting back to his mean. He'll likely cost too much soon. We have Brook and Juulsen as prospects on the right side of the defense with Weber to help them. Trading Petry would make a lot of sense. But every time i say that it's like i'm saying we should tank.

Because it is a tanking move. Our blueline is basically Weber and Petry playing 20+ minutes plus a bunch of depth defensemen with ice time more or less evenly spread out. Take away one of those two, and you have a guarantee you're not making the playoffs. Expecting any of our young defensemen to fill Petrys' role next season is just silly. He's still signed for a couple of years. We have the option of being patient and move him when there's someone to adequately replace him.

 

[Miller Time]

How were the Bruins moves different from us trading Pacioretty and Galchenyuk?

Because we followed that up by:
- losing young, cost controlled prospects to waivers while keeping older, useless vets
- trading down in the draft to add a 4th liner
- not using a non-PO year to add future assets at/near deadline

Or, in other words, no consistency of direction or clear plan

 

[Archijerej]

They also brought them in the NHL quickly so they could get NHL experience before their vets became too old (Pasternak at 18, MacAvoy at 19, Carlo at 19 and Debrusk at 20 but almost 21). They did not let them rot in the AHL for 3-4 years just because they had to "earn" their spot by being 10 times better than some scrubs working hard.

They drafted them, they believed in them and they iced them. That's how you develop young players. The second you start doubting your kids you should fire your scouting team instead of doing like us and blame the kids for being kids. Meanwhile in Montreal Jordan Weal will play 15 minutes a game ...

Care to explain why they haven't done the same with Senyshyn, Forsbacka-Karlsson, Lauzon, Frédéric, Lindgren, Vaakanainen, Studnicka and Andersson. It's almost as if Pastrnak and McAvoy are excellent young players that forced themselves into the lineup.

 

[Archijerej]

Because we followed that up by:
- losing young, cost controlled prospects to waivers while keeping older, useless vets
- trading down in the draft to add a 4th liner
- not using a non-PO year to add future assets at/near deadline

Or, in other words, no consistency of direction or clear plan

Good we haven't done any of those things, because you cannot possibly mean moving down a few spots in the 4th round of the draft, losing Scherbak and De la Rose and not selling assets while in the middle of a playoff run.

 

[Miller Time]

Good we haven't done any of those things, because you cannot possibly mean moving down a few spots in the 4th round of the draft, losing Scherbak and De la Rose and not selling assets while in the middle of a playoff run.

Yes, I mean asset management with a plan.

Simple, boring, effective.

The opposite, speaks for itself.

 

[Archijerej]

Yes, I mean asset management with a plan.

Simple, boring, effective.

The opposite, speaks for itself.

I guess we disagree about the significance of the moves I listed above. They don't influence the retool in any meaningful way.

 

[Miller Time]

I guess we disagree about the significance of the moves I listed above. They don't influence the retool in any meaningful way.

That's the exact mindset behind our ongoing mediocrity.

Devil is always in the details. The best run organizations don't squander any resources needlessly, weak GM's like MB don't appreciate the importance of aligning all decisions towards a defined vision.

 

[Archijerej]

That's the exact mindset behind our ongoing mediocrity.

Devil is always in the details. The best run organizations don't squander any resources needlessly, weak GM's like MB don't appreciate the importance of aligning all decisions towards a defined vision.

These are very nice platitudes, but they do not change the value of Scherbak and De la Rose as NHL assets. I would even argue that adding a #4 center at the deadline for free, basically, shows the kind of restraint and attention to detail you have in mind. There were far more expensive options available and Bergevin is in a hot spot and yet he stuck to his stated plan.

 

[hockeyfan2k18]

It's nauseating to watch people defend Bergevin... Bruins as an organization are just flat out better. They got rid of the GM that brought them a cup...in Montreal, that GM would have gotten guaranteed 10 years. So they got rid of their stanley cup winning GM and coach and replaced them with good people. Dumped Lucic who was clearly on the decline. As an organization they are just flat out better. Bruins have a direction, something Habs have lacked for many years.

How much is Rask making btw? Habs have 2 players making $20M/year and are over 30 with a lot of term left on those deals. Bruins have hit homeruns in key areas. Center (Areas we still can't figure out), goalie D, etc...

Sweeney (who I criticized) looking like a genius.

 

[hockeyfan2k18]

I'm really hoping it goes out west but I'm torn on Dallas because if they win it I'll lose my internet argument about Jim nill being an overrated gm

Jim Nill is a good GM. I have told you this for some time now.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Jim Nill is a good GM. I have told you this for some time now.

That's great man. I disagree, but whatever. He's good at certain high attention parts about being a gm but terrible at others.

 

[japhi]

Because we followed that up by:
- losing young, cost controlled prospects to waivers while keeping older, useless vets
- trading down in the draft to add a 4th liner
- not using a non-PO year to add future assets at/near deadline

Or, in other words, no consistency of direction or clear plan

To be fair the Bruins made similar and worse moves. Signing Backes and Belesky, they gave up a ton for a useless Nash, two seconds for Connoly. Personally I don’t see that clear a direction, they moved some vets for picks then traded those picks for vets, and signed some more vets.

The reason they are where they are is they added to a solid core with good draft picks outside of the top 12. Don’t believe they have one recent top 10 pick in that lineup but haven't gone through it in detail. Thats the direction - they stuck with their core and drafted well.

 

[Rapala]

They didn't tank? What do you think they did to get those three 1st round picks in one year? They just managed to only suck for 3 years instead of the 5 we are heading to. They picked a direction and gutted the team. They in fact did SOMETHING. We have not. Just because they traded a few away in june and october doesn't mean it wasn't a tank job for the next season. A lot smarter than letting your FA walk for nothing.

They managed to keep a veritable core at the same time this can't be overlooked. That experience is paying off big time right now.

 

[tazsub3]

How were the Bruins moves different from us trading Pacioretty and Galchenyuk?

It is actually exactly the same.

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

They didn't tank? What do you think they did to get those three 1st round picks in one year? They just managed to only suck for 3 years instead of the 5 we are heading to. They picked a direction and gutted the team. They in fact did SOMETHING. We have not. Just because they traded a few away in june and october doesn't mean it wasn't a tank job for the next season. A lot smarter than letting your FA walk for nothing.

Bruins didn't gut their team. They traded a FA with 1 year left on his contract for a 1st and Jones, then traded Jones for a 1st and Kuraly. They traded Hamilton because he didn't fit in/they didn't like him.

Trading Petry would be good asset management. His value will never be that high. He's getting old. He slowed down at the end of the season and was slowly reverting back to his mean. He'll likely cost too much soon. We have Brook and Juulsen as prospects on the right side of the defense with Weber to help them. Trading Petry would make a lot of sense. But every time i say that it's like i'm saying we should tank.

Well, you are when you're stating right after we don't have a replacement for him, yet.

Trading Petry would be like those suggesting we trade Shaw and Byron. The potential replacement in ufa is Myers, who might not cost much more and Petry would actually bring in a solid asset. However, if Myers costs too much more, then you're already limiting your team and it's starting to look like bad asset movement.

Petry for a 1st and prospect, or another pick.

1st and prospects for a LHD.

Sign Myers for no more than 6.5 and no longer than 5 years.

I'm fully on board with that.

Then likely trade the extra 1st to rid ourselves of Alzner.

End result, we have pretty much the same team with around 3 mill extra in capspace in a year where the ufa class is rather strong at this point.

Myers is long, but not too long. Could easily be traded in 2-3 years assuming he doesn't regress hard.

 

[Whitesnake]

It's that time when I like to remind myself of the good finds I made back in the days and forget about the ugly ones.....JT Compher, a favorite of mine in the 2013 draft.....would have been a very good 2nd rounder. Heck, would have easily been a better 1st rounder....

 

[Rapala]

Preach

It's so easy to see & get... The whole idea that it takes years of lottery finish for a commited rebuild is nonsense.

clarity of intention & direction, keeping (or adding) the right veteran leadership & coaching to ensure the right locker room mentality for the young players being integrated, and a few schrewd/tactical asset moves...

That's all it really takes, especially when you can spend to the cap, to get enough talent in place to return to competitiveness quickly...

It's our type of approach that drags it out and dooms a franchise to ongoing mediocrity

The key for me is to try to get multiple early picks in consecutive drafts to build a young core that can grow together. Not necessarily all super stars but a balanced approach. It is so much easier to fill holes and and free up capital for more targeted post season needs in this manner. Not only that but free agents are more likely to look harder at an opportunity to play with good young guns. People continually bring up Edmonton as an argument against tanking. What they fail to note is the Oil had plenty of opportunity to trade some of those early picks for multiples which could have accomplished a better balance and didn't take advantage of it.

 

[1909]

Bruins are a bunch of lucky bastards. But Habs had in the past the opportunity to draft Bergeron, Marchand,McAvoy, Lucic instead of Urquhart, Lapierre, Sergachev or Maxwell......

Thank you Trevor Timmins !