News Article: Our sad offense in numbers.

[Doug Prishpreed]

If injuries are not an excuse, you'd surely then apply the same principle to Tim Murray, right?

For sure. Murray does not get a pass, although in any sport you have to judge GMs over a longer time frame, for obvious reasons. You always fail to acknowledge this but keep plugging away at your defense of the coach.

 

[Jame]

This is the biggest pile of bull ever. I don't even know where to start...

Yea I don't remember pining for a 1-1-3

 

[Zip15]

For sure. Murray does not get a pass, although in any sport you have to judge GMs over a longer time frame, for obvious reasons. You always fail to acknowledge this but keep plugging away at your defense of the coach.

Keep attacking the messenger and sidestepping the message. We are nearly capped-out with little in the way of attractive, tradeable assets (or cap space) to make necessary roster upgrades. We already have $50m in commitments for next season in the likely event that LV doesn't do us the favor of taking a bad contract off our hands, and that's before we have to give raises to several players most want to keep (Kulikov, Larsson, Foligno, Girgensons, and Lehner).

That's on the GM. How many more seasons does he have to start cleaning up the mess that's in progress?

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

Keep attacking the messenger and sidestepping the message. We are nearly capped-out with little in the way of attractive, tradeable assets to make necessary roster upgrades. We already have $50m in commitments for next season in the likely event that LV doesn't do us the favor of taking a contract off our hands, and that's before we have to give raises to several players most want to keep (Kulikov, Larsson, Foligno, Girgensons, and Lehner).

That's on the GM. How many more seasons does he have to start cleaning up the mess that's in progress?

What if he trades Kane for Defense? What if we trade Girgs and Foligno for players or assets? Even if we don't get much, it frees up the cap space you're so worried about.

I have plenty to complain about re: Murray and his trades, but he really upgraded with Kuli and Okposo this past offseason, and he can do it again if he trades Kane, Girgs, and/or Foligno. Or maybe he can't - the point is, it doesn't mean that the coach doesn't suck. In fact, saying the coach sucks itself is a huge criticism of Murray. It was his decision alone!

 

[Aladyyn]

Keep attacking the messenger and sidestepping the message. We are nearly capped-out with little in the way of attractive, tradeable assets (or cap space) to make necessary roster upgrades. We already have $50m in commitments for next season in the likely event that LV doesn't do us the favor of taking a bad contract off our hands, and that's before we have to give raises to several players most want to keep (Kulikov, Larsson, Foligno, Girgensons, and Lehner).

That's on the GM. How many more seasons does he have to start cleaning up the mess that's in progress?

He sure gets more time than the coach does. I'd say 2 years after Bylsma is fired is reasonable.

 

[flashsabre]

What if he trades Kane for Defense? What if we trade Girgs and Foligno for players or assets? Even if we don't get much, it frees up the cap space you're so worried about.

I have plenty to complain about re: Murray and his trades, but he really upgraded with Kuli and Okposo this past offseason, and he can do it again if he trades Kane, Girgs, and/or Foligno. Or maybe he can't - the point is, it doesn't mean that the coach doesn't suck. In fact, saying the coach sucks itself is a huge criticism of Murray. It was his decision alone!

With the Pegulas connections to Pittsburgh, I am pretty sure the Blysma hire wasn't just Murray' s call.

 

[Zip15]

He sure gets more time than the coach does. I'd say 2 years after Bylsma is fired is reasonable.

So, for purposes of clarification, he gets 18 months before Bylsma was hired, the entirety of Bylsma's tenure, plus two years? Do I have that right?

 

[Aladyyn]

He didn't disregard development. Sorry.

Oh yes I am sure Risto really benefited from getting homicidal deployments by Bylsma.

The effects of not letting Reinhart play center are apparent right now.

 

[Aladyyn]

So, for purposes of clarification, he gets 18 months before Bylsma was hired, the entirety of Bylsma's tenure, plus two years? Do I have that right?

Bylsma is the first coach Murray hired and this current season is the first one with underwhelming results. He gets one more coach at the very least.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

Yeah I'm getting real tired of this Bylsma vs TM argument being made. Some people want to exaggerate the faults of one or claim that the faults of one are being ignored.

If in fact TM wanted an ultra-conservative defensive system then I blame him as well as Dufus. I can't absolutely claim that's true yet. I see how they pursued Babcock and if TM wanted a dump/chase team all along then why bother with Babcock? Did TM settle for a system only after hiring Bylsma? IDK, but either way for now the style they play is at least equally inept as the talent on the much-injured roster.

I've probably bored people do death here with my immediate and repeated criticism of the Kane trade. I didn't like the Lehner trade either. Still, IMO, the team has improved and should be capable of a better result under better coaching. I never liked Bylsma just like I never liked Kane. Both people have continued to show the same deficiencies as pre-Sabres. TM chose the wrong targets in that trade, and paid too much in the Lehner trade when a hugely talented draft class was available. What's a decent/good goalie like Lehner for under a defensive system that protects the goalie? Not worth #21 in a great draft, for sure (and I like Lehner).

There's blame to go around, but many here prefer to deflect one direction or another instead of acknowledging the mistakes of everyone.

This team has room to improve so all's not lost. Shedding Gionta, Cody, and Franson nets 3 mil after raises to all RFAs. Take that 3 mil, add the cap increase, and along with a Kane trade there's room for a top-four Dman and another significant player. This season is a hot mess already...no playoffs and I'm over it. I just want to see TM navigate expansion, find a new coach/system, trade Kane for a Dman, and find/sign/trade for another scoring W or additional Dman depth. He also needs to fill out Rochester with NHL capable depth players. If these things don't happen TM is in the same @#$%-bin as Dufus, but I have to wait til the summer to make that conclusion.

I might just copy and paste this post in every thread and go on my merry way until June. This season isn't worth watching right now.

 

[Zip15]

Bylsma is the first coach Murray hired and this current season is the first one with underwhelming results. He gets one more coach at the very least.

Underwhelming results? People were hoping we could stay at or around .500 when it was only Eichel who was injured - and that was before losing ROR, Kulikov, Bogosian, and Kane for all but 4 1/3 games. We've improved as a possession team and suppressing the other teams' scoring chances.

I guess it comes down to whether you think the team should be better than 14 pts in 16 games given who we've had injured. I think all things considered, they're about where I expected them.

 

[Jame]

Underwhelming results? People were hoping we could stay at or around .500 when it was only Eichel who was injured - and that was before losing ROR, Kulikov, Bogosian, and Kane for all but 4 1/3 games. We've improved as a possession team and suppressing the other teams' scoring chances.

I guess it comes down to whether you think the team should be better than 14 pts in 16 games given who we've had injured. I think all things considered, they're about where I expected them.

I think it comes down to the hockey were are playing, and all the weaknesses Bylsma has validated in the last year+

 

[joshjull]

If injuries are not an excuse, you'd surely then apply the same principle to Tim Murray, right?

Injuries are definitely an excuse for the last handful of games. Even though I think tactically Disco should have done a few things differently. Ultimately we are overwhelmed by key injuries right now.



But we have been inept offensively from the start of the season. Eichel out hurts but it shouldn't make us one of the worst in the NHL at generating scoring chances. It's not like I'm expecting us to lead the NHL in offense with Eichel out. Being middle of the road isn't that much to ask I don't think.


Murray does not get pass at all in my opinion. He hired Disco and made questionable depth decisions that I have issues with. How Murray handles what plays out this season will go a long way in my faith him as our GM.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

So, for purposes of clarification, he gets 18 months before Bylsma was hired, the entirety of Bylsma's tenure, plus two years? Do I have that right?

Probably longer. As you are well aware, it takes several years for the players he drafted to develop. You can't evaluate a GM without being able to evaluate his draft picks. Not sure why you are having such a difficult time with this concept - it's been the same way since hockey started, and is the same in every sport. Coaches can be evaluated on a game-in, game-out basis.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

We've improved as a possession team and suppressing the other teams' scoring chances.

We're 29th in tied-game Corsi.

We've dropped like 4 points due to coaching decisions and the one roster strength Murray has developed - solid young middle 6 wings - aren't being played above the fourth line despite leading the team in on-ice goal rate.

 

[Sabre Dance]

Has anyone ever asked Murray what his preferred system is? Has anyone ever asked Bylsma why he does certain things? Bylsma is available for questions every game. Pretty much the big beef had been OT.

 

[joshjull]

Has anyone ever asked Murray what his preferred system is? Has anyone ever asked Bylsma why he does certain things? Bylsma is available for questions every game. Pretty much the big beef had been OT.

It would be nice if hockey writers would ask better questions.

 

[Havok89]

If injuries are not an excuse, you'd surely then apply the same principle to Tim Murray, right?

This was a fringe playoff team at best. I don't think you can lose Eichel, ROR, Bogo, Kulikov and realistically say there's no excuses.

 

[stokes84]

Has anyone ever asked Murray what his preferred system is? Has anyone ever asked Bylsma why he does certain things? Bylsma is available for questions every game. Pretty much the big beef had been OT.

Since "systems" are not monoliths, and game plans change game to game, and change depending on personnel, it's not exactly a question you can ask and expect to get a straight answer for. That's why all of this *****ing and moaning over system is pretty hilarious.

 

[Zip15]

We're 29th in tied-game Corsi.

We've dropped like 4 points due to coaching decisions and the one roster strength Murray has developed - solid young middle 6 wings - aren't being played above the fourth line despite leading the team in on-ice goal rate.

Playing along with your cherry-picked stat, they're 8th in the league in SCF% when tied. That would lead one to believe that while they're giving up more shot attempts when tied, they're low-percentage shots that aren't translating into scoring opportunities.

 

[joshjull]

Playing along with your cherry-picked stat, they're 8th in the league in SCF% when tied. That would lead one to believe that while they're giving up more shot attempts when tied, they're low-percentage shots that aren't translating into scoring opportunities.

Or they're getting very good goaltending.

 

[Zip15]

Or they're getting very good goaltending.

Nilsson has given them good goaltending in his four games, but Lehner is 21st in ESSV% (min. 4 starts) - or if you bump the minimum to 9 games (assuming a starter will see the majority of games), he's 11th of 33. Lehner's been "pretty good," but I wouldn't go as far as saying he's been very good or excellent. In any event, I think SCF and SCA are defined by shot location and other factors. I suppose we could say that our goaltenders aren't giving up bad rebounds leading to defined scoring chances, but I would argue that anyone who has watched Lehner knows that rebound control is hardly a strength of his.

 

[joshjull]

Nilsson has given them good goaltending in his four games, but Lehner is 21st in ESSV% (min. 4 starts). I think SCF and SCA are defined by shot location and other factors. I suppose we could say that our goaltenders aren't giving up bad rebounds leading to scoring chances, but I would argue that anyone who has watched Lehner knows that rebound control is hardly a strength of his.

The point is the stat you brought up doesn't tell us what you asserted it did. It could be from good goaltending in that situation or a combo of both or even other factors. Nevermind how factoring of what's a scoring chance influence the results found.

You have a tendency to take what you want from these stats and/or inflate their value or treat them, as gospel. Like you did with last night's High quality scoring chances.

 

[Yatzhee]

All the back and forth doesn't change the fact that this team is in bad shape. If we are to solely rely on Eichel for primary scoring and 2 maybe 3 players for low secondary scoring and near 0 contribution from the rest of the talent on the roster this team is going nowhere fast.
That reeks of coaching defeciencies

 

[Zip15]

The point is the stat you brought up doesn't tell us what you asserted it did. It could be from good goaltending in that situation or a combo of both or even other factors.

You have a tendency to take what you want from these stats and/or inflate their value. Like you did with last night's High quality scoring chances.

I'm asserting that our "tied CF%" is devoid of context, which is underscored when you consider we're outchancing our opponents when tied - and nobody can argue a scoring chance is less valuable than a shot attempt. It absolutely does suggest, if not establish, that, relatively speaking, the shot attempts we're surrendering aren't amounting to scoring chances - and, alternatively, that a very high percentage of the relatively few shot attempts we are taking when tied are turning into scoring chances for us. This is objectively established:

CA60 (tied) - 15th
SCA60 (tied) - 7th

CF60 (tied) - 29th
SCF60 (tied) - 18th

We make more of our shot attempts while, at the same time, limiting opponent scoring chances in their greater number of attempts at our net.

By the way, these "tied" numbers represent roughly 25% of the minutes we've played (a tick over 4 games worth).