OT: Other Sports aka 2 weeks until NFL Draft thread XXVI

[JWK]

Not really, Wentz is much more projectable to the NFL than Goff.

I don't care about competition levels, the fact is Wentz won/lead his team to 4 straight championships. That's ridiculous at any level. Not to mention Wentz played a pro style offense, that actually forces him to make reads and go through progressions. Whereas Goff played in the crappy spread offense that teaches QBs nothing other than to get the ball out quick to your first read.

Spread offenses are trash for QBs but work in the NCAA because it relies on our athletes being better than your athletes. The QB is told to get rid of the ball quickly and let the WR/RB try to make a play in space. There are no complex routes or progressions to work through. Just get the ball out and let the athlete make a play.

That's why we are seeing shortage of quality starting starting QBs in the NFL. Because more and more NCAA teams are moving to the spread offense, which doesn't require QBs to do much of anything.

That's why I value players like Wentz, Cook, Hackenberg over players like Goff, Lynch, Precott etc. Wentz, Cook, Hackenberg all had to run NFL style offense, that force you to read defenses go through your progessions and make the right throw.

Wait, you don't like Goff because he played in a Spread offense so you'll take Hackenberg over Goff even though he played in the Spread offense and sucked?

 

[cgf]

holy crap rams. wentz/goff aren't THAT good prospects.

Gotta make a splash upon their return to LA, and their already going to have a nasty Defense.

 

[cgf]

I feel pretty confident in saying Wentz will be a much better NFL QB than RG3. I don't think Wentz is going to be elite, but I think he can be a top 10 sort of QB for 10+ years. I'm not completely sold on Goff personally. I like him and I think he can be a NFL starter, but how good is a big question to me.

Goff's another Matt Ryan. Wentz has some big Ben/C-Pep to him.

 

[jrmysell]

Not really, Wentz is much more projectable to the NFL than Goff.

I don't care about competition levels, the fact is Wentz won/lead his team to 4 straight championships. That's ridiculous at any level. Not to mention Wentz played a pro style offense, that actually forces him to make reads and go through progressions. Whereas Goff played in the crappy spread offense that teaches QBs nothing other than to get the ball out quick to your first read. A perfect example of a player going to a small school and outperforming others in his draft is Vincent Jackson who went to Northern Colorado and was chosen 61st. Braylon Edwards (Michigan) was drafted #3 overall, Troy Williamson (South Carolina) went #7, Mike Williams (USC) #10 the list goes on. There were 10 WRs chosen before VJ that year the only one that has had a better career is Roddy White taken at #27 and the funny part is he went to a small school as well in Alabama Birmingham. Football is a lot different than hockey when it comes to prospects. If you're good, you're good it doesn't matter what school you went to. Whereas the vast majority of top prospects play in the CHL, NCAA, Sweden, Finland or Russia.

Spread offenses are trash for QBs but work in the NCAA because it relies on our athletes being better than your athletes. The QB is told to get rid of the ball quickly and let the WR/RB try to make a play in space. There are no complex routes or progressions to work through. Just get the ball out and let the athlete make a play.

That's why we are seeing shortage of quality starting starting QBs in the NFL. Because more and more NCAA teams are moving to the spread offense, which doesn't require QBs to do much of anything.

That's why I value players like Wentz, Cook, Hackenberg over players like Goff, Lynch, Precott etc. Wentz, Cook, Hackenberg all had to run NFL style offense, that force you to read defenses go through your progessions and make the right throw.

That is a little bit incorrect. He was on a team that won 4 straight, but it wasn't just him. He literally only threw 46 passes his first 2 years. 16 then 30. Not really him leading those 2 teams. He did his 3rd year, but then again, last year, he was hurt and didn't even play in half their games. That team is completely stacked, and the QB wasn't the main reason they were winning those games. His entire career, he threw 13 more passes than Derek Carr did as a rookie. Not exactly him leading that team to 4 straight championships.

 

[ABasin]

Not really, Wentz is much more projectable to the NFL than Goff.

I don't care about competition levels, the fact is Wentz won/lead his team to 4 straight championships. That's ridiculous at any level. Not to mention Wentz played a pro style offense, that actually forces him to make reads and go through progressions. Whereas Goff played in the crappy spread offense that teaches QBs nothing other than to get the ball out quick to your first read. A perfect example of a player going to a small school and outperforming others in his draft is Vincent Jackson who went to Northern Colorado and was chosen 61st. Braylon Edwards (Michigan) was drafted #3 overall, Troy Williamson (South Carolina) went #7, Mike Williams (USC) #10 the list goes on. There were 10 WRs chosen before VJ that year the only one that has had a better career is Roddy White taken at #27 and the funny part is he went to a small school as well in Alabama Birmingham. Football is a lot different than hockey when it comes to prospects. If you're good, you're good it doesn't matter what school you went to. Whereas the vast majority of top prospects play in the CHL, NCAA, Sweden, Finland or Russia.

Spread offenses are trash for QBs but work in the NCAA because it relies on our athletes being better than your athletes. The QB is told to get rid of the ball quickly and let the WR/RB try to make a play in space. There are no complex routes or progressions to work through. Just get the ball out and let the athlete make a play.

That's why we are seeing shortage of quality starting starting QBs in the NFL. Because more and more NCAA teams are moving to the spread offense, which doesn't require QBs to do much of anything.

That's why I value players like Wentz, Cook, Hackenberg over players like Goff, Lynch, Precott etc. Wentz, Cook, Hackenberg all had to run NFL style offense, that force you to read defenses go through your progessions and make the right throw.

First, Wentz only played 5 and 7 games his first two seasons, attempting a TOTAL of 46 passes, with 3 touchdowns. But he LED them to championships? Unless the entirety of those stats happened during 2 championship games, he was a peripheral contributor at best those first two years.

EDIT: Someone beat me to this. Good post.

As for not caring about competition levels and "that's ridiculous at any level".... come on. If some kid QBs a few consecutive high school championships in the Fairbanks Alaska league, we're supposed to ignore the level of competition and be impressed? Compare that kid equally to a kid who played much better competition in Florida or Texas or wherever? I mean no offense, but ignoring the level of competition is absurd.

How many future NFL players has Wentz ever seen on the other side of the line of scrimmage? And how many has Goff seen? I remember reading an interview with John Fox when talking about undrafted free agents, in particular, Chris Harris. They had Harris and some other kid to choose from, and Fox said "Pick the kid from the bigger program who played against better competition"(sic). They picked Harris.

It matters.

Now, I fully agree with you point about pro type offenses and making reads. You can't do that, you can't play QB in the NFL.

I'm not saying Goff is better than Wentz or vice versa. I'm saying there's no way to know.

 

[Hasbro]

Thanks to Osweiller I bet Hack goes on Day 3

 

[dahrougem2]

Salute to the Mamba. People have their opinions on him be it good or bad, but he is my favourite athlete of all time. I'm so glad I got to watch him as I grew up, from his very first championship when I was 6 years old to his final game. No athlete had more of an impact on me than Kobe Bryant. His insane work ethic drove me to be better every day. Last night was so sad, yet so great seeing him drop 60 points and lead a comeback win in true Kobe fashion.

Thanks for the memories, Kobe.

 

[Bonzai12]

Bleh. My old boss was the father of the girl Kobe raped.

Don't get me started.

 

[famicommander]

De La Rosa has had a strange game today.

So far
2 fielding errors
1 run-allowing wild pitch
5 IP, 1 H, 1 BB, 7 SO on 72 pitches
2 hits, 2 RBI, 1 run scored

He's still in the game.

 

[Hasbro]

Bleh. My old boss was the father of the girl Kobe raped.

Don't get me started.

I will always love Tina Fey for taking his slime bag lawyer to task for violating her privacy rights.

 

[Hasbro]

So I'm seeing a ton of opinions on how this will effect Broncos from it killing any possibility of a Kaep trade (thank god!) to sending Lynch tumbling.

Thing is, I can see the Niners or Eagles reaching for him at 7 or 8 or trading down.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Broncos opening vs Carolina. I like it.

 

[ColoradoSportsFan]

Broncos opening vs Carolina. I like it.

I dunno...seems like a boring matchup to me. We just played them. Plus it's kinda messed up for the league to make them come here and watch us celebrate.

Would have rather had Houston.

 

[Hasbro]

Wanted Houston.

It would have been fun to put Brock into "I've made a terrible mistake" mode one game in.

 

[tigervixxxen]

They always do playoff rematch, I don't want to give the Pats that stage, so it turned out fine.

 

[ColoradoSportsFan]

I do love the week 11 bye. Perfect time to rest for the playoff push.

In my perfect world...

Opener - vs Houston
Turkey Day - vs NE
1st game after bye week - vs Carolina

 

[Bonzai12]

The Titans/Rams deal may have killed the 49ers/Broncos/Kaep deal.

San Francisco - ESPN's Mark Dominik believes the Colin Kaepernick to Denver deal is "done" contingent on the 49ers drafting a quarterback. Dominik, a former NFL GM, cited the fact that Kaepernick has visited the Broncos facility, and that never happens unless a deal and contract are done.

Why It Matters: The "drafting a quarterback" part is a sticking point now with the #1 pick earmarked for a quarterback. Cleveland at #2 and Dallas at #4 are both possible quarterback drafters, so unless San Francisco wants Memphis's Paxton Lynch, the likelihood of this deal getting done went down when the Titans traded out of the #1 pick. Kaepernick could still get dealt in an alternate deal, but we wouldn't expect the San Francisco or Denver pass offenses to flourish this year no matter where Kaepernick plays.

 

[chet1926]

Wait, you don't like Goff because he played in a Spread offense so you'll take Hackenberg over Goff even though he played in the Spread offense and sucked?

No. Goff has more physical talent than Hackenberg. But that being said if Hackenberg gets an opportunity to start somewhere, I wouldn't be stunned to see Hackenberg have more immediate success than Goff. In the long run my guess would be that Goff is the better QB. That spread offense is just a NFL QB killer and it takes most guys a few years to learn a pro style offense.

 

[chet1926]

First, Wentz only played 5 and 7 games his first two seasons, attempting a TOTAL of 46 passes, with 3 touchdowns. But he LED them to championships? Unless the entirety of those stats happened during 2 championship games, he was a peripheral contributor at best those first two years.

EDIT: Someone beat me to this. Good post.

As for not caring about competition levels and "that's ridiculous at any level".... come on. If some kid QBs a few consecutive high school championships in the Fairbanks Alaska league, we're supposed to ignore the level of competition and be impressed? Compare that kid equally to a kid who played much better competition in Florida or Texas or wherever? I mean no offense, but ignoring the level of competition is absurd.

How many future NFL players has Wentz ever seen on the other side of the line of scrimmage? And how many has Goff seen? I remember reading an interview with John Fox when talking about undrafted free agents, in particular, Chris Harris. They had Harris and some other kid to choose from, and Fox said "Pick the kid from the bigger program who played against better competition"(sic). They picked Harris.

It matters.

Now, I fully agree with you point about pro type offenses and making reads. You can't do that, you can't play QB in the NFL.

I'm not saying Goff is better than Wentz or vice versa. I'm saying there's no way to know.

I misread about Wentz, for some reason I thought I'd read somewhere that he was the main QB on all the championships teams. Needless to say it's still extremely tough to win 4 championships in a row at any NCAA level. I mean the UConn womens basketball team which has been dominating the sport for 25 years just finally accomplished a 4-peat. You still have to play the games a win them. Everyone is always out to get you, you have a target on your back. If it was easy at the NCAA level teams would do it all the time.

I think you are undervaluing the FCS level. Yes I will agree that, it's not like going up against a SEC schedule. But that being said this level has time and time again show it can produce good players just not nearly as many as the big time programs. Joe Flacco (Delaware) and Tony Romo (Eastern Illinois) are good examples of QBs from small schools. Flacco won a Super Bowl and Romo is consistently a top 10 QB. I'd agree with John Fox's analysis when it comes to 6th, 7th, UFA guys, but these top end guys have been heavily analyzed and scrutinized, the scouts know if they can play or not.

The success stories in the NFL of guys who lead spread offenses in college is very minimal at this point. You have Cam Newton, Andy Dalton, Marcus Mariota(had a solid rookie season) Jameis Winston (solid rookie year), Derek Carr played in a modified spread in college, Teddy Bridgewater and Ryan Tannehill that's about it. The rest of the top starters in the league primarily played in non-spread offenses.

It's just a long adjustment period for guys coming from spread offenses. Even Mariota and Winston who had decent rookie years struggled making reads and often relied on their feet to make a play.

I guess my point is that if you have two QB that are fairly equal talent wise, one from a spread offense the other from a pro offense, I go for the guy with the pro offense experience 10 times out of 10. The learning curve is just not as steep, and is far less risky.

 

[Bonzai12]

The success stories in the NFL of guys who lead spread offenses in college is very minimal at this point. You have Cam Newton, Andy Dalton, Marcus Mariota(had a solid rookie season) Jameis Winston (solid rookie year), Derek Carr played in a modified spread in college, Teddy Bridgewater and Ryan Tannehill that's about it. The rest of the top starters in the league primarily played in non-spread offenses.

That's like every recent QB that's been talented. We haven't had a supreme bust come out of a quirky offense like an Andre Ware-type situation. Maybe Tebow/Manziel/EJ Manuel/Weeden, but was anyone really sold on those guys being awesome?

 

[jrmysell]

I misread about Wentz, for some reason I thought I'd read somewhere that he was the main QB on all the championships teams. Needless to say it's still extremely tough to win 4 championships in a row at any NCAA level. I mean the UConn womens basketball team which has been dominating the sport for 25 years just finally accomplished a 4-peat. You still have to play the games a win them. Everyone is always out to get you, you have a target on your back. If it was easy at the NCAA level teams would do it all the time.

I think you are undervaluing the FCS level. Yes I will agree that, it's not like going up against a SEC schedule. But that being said this level has time and time again show it can produce good players just not nearly as many as the big time programs. Joe Flacco (Delaware) and Tony Romo (Eastern Illinois) are good examples of QBs from small schools. Flacco won a Super Bowl and Romo is consistently a top 10 QB. I'd agree with John Fox's analysis when it comes to 6th, 7th, UFA guys, but these top end guys have been heavily analyzed and scrutinized, the scouts know if they can play or not.

The success stories in the NFL of guys who lead spread offenses in college is very minimal at this point. You have Cam Newton, Andy Dalton, Marcus Mariota(had a solid rookie season) Jameis Winston (solid rookie year), Derek Carr played in a modified spread in college, Teddy Bridgewater and Ryan Tannehill that's about it. The rest of the top starters in the league primarily played in non-spread offenses.

It's just a long adjustment period for guys coming from spread offenses. Even Mariota and Winston who had decent rookie years struggled making reads and often relied on their feet to make a play.

I guess my point is that if you have two QB that are fairly equal talent wise, one from a spread offense the other from a pro offense, I go for the guy with the pro offense experience 10 times out of 10. The learning curve is just not as steep, and is far less risky.

Our point about him only playing 1.5 seasons, is that it isn't him leading the team. That team is obviously stacked. When your starting QB goes down and you continue winning, that's not him leading a team, that's that team carrying the QB. Yeah, he obviously helped, but it was kinda like the Broncos this year, the team carried the QB rather than the other way around. When Manning went down, and your backup came in, there wasn't a big drop off (unlike somebody like the Cowboys who rely on their QB). SDSU was more like the Broncos than the Cowboys. Y'all won a SB even with your QB getting hurt.

 

[chet1926]

That's like every recent QB that's been talented. We haven't had a supreme bust come out of a quirky offense like an Andre Ware-type situation. Maybe Tebow/Manziel/EJ Manuel/Weeden, but was anyone really sold on those guys being awesome?

Not really. Kirk Cousins, Russell Wilson, Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, Andrew Luck, Blake Bortles. Not to mention on top of that the established guys of Romo, Manning, Palmer, Cutler, Stafford, Rodgers (when he was at Cal they ran a pro style, didn't go to a spread until the new coach came in 3 years ago), Brady, Big Ben etc.

All those guys came from pro style offenses in college. I'd say the vast majority of the top tier QBs came from pro style offenses in college. Not to say a spread offense guy can't do it, but it seems to happen far less frequently.

 

[JWK]

No. Goff has more physical talent than Hackenberg. But that being said if Hackenberg gets an opportunity to start somewhere, I wouldn't be stunned to see Hackenberg have more immediate success than Goff. In the long run my guess would be that Goff is the better QB. That spread offense is just a NFL QB killer and it takes most guys a few years to learn a pro style offense.

I would love to know why you think Hack will have more immediate success than Goff. I'm like the biggest Hack fan in the world but how can he be better than Goff?

You can't use the Spread vs. Pro offense argument here because both ran the Spread offense in College, while one (Goff) carried his team while the other (Hack) was bad most of the time.

The success stories in the NFL of guys who lead spread offenses in college is very minimal at this point. You have Cam Newton, Andy Dalton, Marcus Mariota(had a solid rookie season) Jameis Winston (solid rookie year), Derek Carr played in a modified spread in college, Teddy Bridgewater and Ryan Tannehill that's about it. The rest of the top starters in the league primarily played in non-spread offenses.

It's just a long adjustment period for guys coming from spread offenses. Even Mariota and Winston who had decent rookie years struggled making reads and often relied on their feet to make a play.

Also Brees, Flacco, Alex Smith, and Bortles played in the Spread offense. Russell Wilson played in a Spread offense at NC State before transferring to Pro-Style offense in Wisconsin for his SR year and turned out fine.

Btw, both Bridgewater and Tannehill played in a Pro-Style offense in college.

 

[famicommander]

So much going on in sports today

NBA playoffs, NHL playoffs, Rockies day game, DU lacrosse with a big road win, Mammoth on the road in Saskatchewan, boxing on NBC, UFC on Fox, plus there's like six people at the Rapids game tonight.

 

[Hasbro]

plus there's like six people at the Rapids game tonight.

So a packed house.

Gruden analyses Lynch and Prescott. Over effusive as usual