Orpik's Inevitable Re-sign (Now with 100% Less Nathan Horton)

[Dipsy Doodle]

Apples and oranges. There are 12 forward positions and Bennett is the only forward prospect we had anywhere close to ready for the NHL. There are 6 defenseman spots and we have at least 5 or 6 D-men who are fighting for NHL spots or could be in the next year or two.

Ah, but we also had cheaper vets available to re-sign for the bottom 6 if we had so chosen: Cooke or TK. We chose to keep Dupuis in a top 6 role at a higher price instead of incorporating Bennett.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

I think the inestimable Darth Vitale is right on the money in saying the longer the Penguins go without engaging in contract talks with Orpik, the larger the chip on his shoulder will grow.

The last contract negotiation with him was pretty acrimonious. This time he's coming in pre-pissed off too.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Ah, but we also had cheaper vets available to re-sign for the bottom 6 if we had so chosen: Cooke or TK. We chose to keep Dupuis in a top 6 role at a higher price instead of incorporating Bennett.

That's cool. It still doesn't change the fact that the forward and defense situations are entirely different. Signing Dupuis didn't mean Bennett was losing his spot in the NHL. Signing Orpik means someone who belongs in the NHL won't be there. At least not with us.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I guess we're mostly talking about Dupuis, here, but it's worth noting that Shero tried to better-deal him in the form of Iginla. When Iggy didn't work out as a top 6 forward, a Dupuis re-signing always struck me as a fall-back position.

In the case of Dupuis, there's not really any natural fit to backfill him. Our most-talented forward prospect is probably Sill or Kuhnackl, which speaks of how bereft we are in terms of skilled forwards. He was re-signed out of necessity because nobody else could do the job and a UFA forward would be more expensive and not necessarily better.

With Orpik, though, there are two defensemen (Dumoulin and possibly Ruopp) on the cusp of being able to slot into his exact role, and that's not including Despres (whom I expect to be traded somewhere down the line).

I think the inestimable Darth Vitale is right on the money in saying the longer the Penguins go without engaging in contract talks with Orpik, the larger the chip on his shoulder will grow.

If he makes it to the trade deadline without being re-signed, he's going UFA. If he goes UFA, he'll get paid. Either by a club that's set to lose a left-handed defensive D like the Rangers (Staal's almost certainly going to Carolina when his contract expires) or Kings (Willie Mitchell is really, really breaking down), or by a young team that would be ecstatic over the proposition of adding an outspoken assistant Captain with a ring (Edmonton, Colorado...maybe Buffalo or Columbus).

I don't think he's about to come back to us with an offer to knock $1 mil annually off the number they show him. Not after what he just saw Letang bank.

Sure there was: Bennett. He's the most analogous to our current situation on d, when are projecting Despres for when they suggest he'll slip into a top 4 role. But instead of putting Bennett in a top 6 role and re-signing the cheaper Cooke for our bottom 6, we decided to to keep Dupes and let Bennett first grow in a bottom 6 role.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

That's cool. It still doesn't change the fact that the forward and defense situations are entirely different. Signing Dupuis didn't mean Bennett was losing his spot in the NHL. Signing Orpik means someone who belongs in the NHL won't be there. At least not with us.

I'm not sure what in the last few seasons has shown you we're averse to keeping young NHL-ready defensemen out of the line-up in favour of vets, haha.

 

[billybudd]

Sure there was: Bennett. He's the most analogous to our current situation on d, when are projecting Despres for when they suggest he'll slip into a top 4 role. But instead of putting Bennett in a top 6 role and re-signing the cheaper Cooke for our bottom 6, we decided to to keep Dupes and let Bennett first grow in a bottom 6 role.

Bennett was expected to win the spot on Malkin's wing, but Jokinen stole it out from under him in training camp. Can't pencil Bennett in on two different lines and expect him to perform both duties.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I'm not sure what in the last few seasons has shown you we're averse to keeping young NHL-ready defensemen out of the line-up in favour of vets, haha.

I'm not sure when in the last few seasons we have had this many guys lining up to make the team. This is new ground for Shero. This is what he's built through drafting and even the Staal trade. He made this situation. Signing Orpik would be a huge misstep imo.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

I'm not sure when in the last few seasons we have had this many guys lining up to make the team. This is new ground for Shero. This is what he's built through drafting and even the Staal trade. He made this situation. Signing Orpik would be a huge misstep imo.

And the reality is that we really don't have any place to play more forwards with the emergence of Kobesew as the solution on L3 wing anyways. That was the only slot we had open.

So even if we're willing to sit Glass, which we are not, you can't even trade the D prospects for anyone this season for lack of roster space.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Bennett was expected to win the spot on Malkin's wing, but Jokinen stole it out from under him in training camp. Can't pencil Bennett in on two different lines and expect him to perform both duties.

Without Dupuis:

Kunitz - Crosby - Bennett
Jokinen - Malkin - Neal

That pencils Bennett on one line.

I'm not sure when in the last few seasons we have had this many guys lining up to make the team. This is new ground for Shero. This is what he's built through drafting and even the Staal trade. He made this situation. Signing Orpik would be a huge misstep imo.

Last year:

Niskanen - Letang
Orpik - Martin
Engelland - Lovejoy
Strait - Bortuzzo
Morrow - Despres

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

So we're in agreement here?

Plausible.

We agree it's possible, but as I
continue to show, the numbers bear
out that inking Orpik severely handicaps your roster.

By the time you fill out your roster giving modest raises, there will literally be no cap space left.

Perhaps the cap pushes beyond 70m and everyone still gets a modest raise, but that is a lot to hope for.

Why draft all of these kids on the blueline if you aren't going to use their ELCs to give you cap relief and roster flexibility?

 

[Ogrezilla]

Without Dupuis:

Kunitz - Crosby - Bennett
Jokinen - Malkin - Neal

That pencils Bennett on one line.



Last year:

Niskanen - Letang
Orpik - Martin
Engelland - Lovejoy
Strait - Bortuzzo
Morrow - Despres

Right. Last year. And we've seen what happens when you don't make room for them. We've lost 2 of those guys and have nothing to show for it. Doing it again really will make Shero's whole team building strategy very questionable.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

and we've seen what happens when you don't make room for them. We've lost 2 of those guys and have nothing to show for it.

Not saying it's right...I was pissed when we waived Strait. I'm just saying that's what happened, and it shows we're not afraid to keep NHL-ready young defensemen out of the line-up in favour of vets...much lesser vets than Orpik. We sacrificed a good young defenseman for freaking Lovejoy.

The good news is that there's no danger of losing any of our defense prospects to waivers until 2015, provided Despres is a fixture on the team.

 

[SEALBound]

Right. Last year. And we've seen what happens when you don't make room for them. We've lost 2 of those guys and have nothing to show for it. Doing it again really will make Shero's whole team building strategy very questionable.

In all fairness, Lovejoy was terrible here. Losing Strait because of him irritates me to no end. But even if we had him...where would he have gone?

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Here's a question for y'all:

Do you really think the Pens would sign off on a roster where 4 of their 7 blueliners are Despres, Bortuzzo, and two rookie defensemen? Because without Orpik, Niskanen, and Engo, that's what'll happen.

 

[Ogrezilla]

In all fairness, Lovejoy was terrible here. Losing Strait because of him irritates me to no end. But even if we had him...where would he have gone?

I forgot about Lovejoy. I was talking about Strait and Morrow.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Here's a question for y'all:

Do you really think the Pens would sign off on a roster where 4 of their 7 blueliners are Despres, Bortuzzo, and two rookie defensemen? Because without Orpik, Niskanen, and Engo, that's what'll happen.

Letang - Scuderi
Martin - Despres
Bortuzzo - Rookie
Rookie/Eaton/RandomVet

Yes, I can see that happening if they give Bortuzzo and Despres time to play this year.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Letang - Scuderi
Martin - Despres
Bortuzzo - Rookie
Rookie/Eaton/RandomVet

Yes, I can see that happening if they give Bortuzzo and Despres time to play this year.

You've got more faith in the Pens turning the blueline over to youth than me man, haha.

 

[Shockmaster]

Here's a question for y'all:

Do you really think the Pens would sign off on a roster where 4 of their 7 blueliners are Despres, Bortuzzo, and two rookie defensemen? Because without Orpik, Niskanen, and Engo, that's what'll happen.

Unless the Penguins are okay going into next season with a very weak bottom 6 forward group, they might not have a choice.

 

[Ogrezilla]

You've got more faith in the Pens turning the blueline over to youth than me man, haha.

I'll say it again. If they aren't willing to do this sort of thing, then they have had a terrible draft and trade strategy over the last few years. This was always what was going to happen when we started drafting and trading for nothing but high end d-prospects.

 

[Ugene Magic]

I think Ogre is right that about Bortuzzo's strength around the net and along the boards, but it's more a case of Orpik being less aggressive than he used to be, than it is Bortuzzo having overwhelming strength or something like that. If Orpik wanted to he could remain the strongest guy on the team in all these areas but I think because of his injuries and hernia problems and whatnot, he's decided to dish out less abuse during regular seasons so that he can be healthy in teh playoffs. He seemed to suggest as much during the Islanders series last year when asked about his increased aggressiveness.

As for "with the puck" we have to define what we mean. I would say Orpik is a better skater with the puck but Ogre might be talking about the decisions he makes or the passes, etc. As far as skating though, for his size Orpik is one of the best / smoothest out there, and Bortuzzo isn't. I don't think they're close in the sense of "technical skating skills for a big guy", based on what I've seen. Then again I'm not a power skating instructor so I may be off my rocker, but just visually... Orpik's strides and pivots and whatnot, seem much smoother than Bortuzzo's.

I can agree to that lodgic most certainly how you laid it out, and that's my point in most of it, a healthy Orpik, which we've not seen in at least a couple of seasons. Kunitz battled the same issue, hernia. He's signed and still serviceable at the same age no less.

The last real big draw here is everyone thinks these young guys are ready to take on those big minutes and there won't be any major drawback from it, or they think they'll work themselves out over one full season if they're in there when it took Orpik himself 4/5 seasons to grow into, Orpik, the one we all like. Problem is, Orpik came in around that time where the Pens didn't really have that great of a D-corp and these new guys are. The Pens don't have 3,4,5 seasons to let these guys all come in at once and take over without serious warts.

Like I said earlier, they win the cup I see no reason to keep him, but if they don't....I see a couple year hiatus, and how do they feel about that for a team trying to win it all? We are looking at a 50% reduction of experience and leadership. Half the roster being young and inexperienced. That's not how you retool and win a cup, or expect too. That's why my question stands, are you all ready to sacrifice another season or two to get all your young guys in and in place to "seriously compete?"

Yeah, yeah, Sid and Geno, bla bla bla, seriously, all the guns a blaz'n?



This is all we are at this point.

 

[ColePens]

Like you and many have said... we got these defenders for a reason, right?

 

[Ogrezilla]

I can agree to that lodgic most certainly how you laid it out, and that's my point in most of it, a healthy Orpik, which we've not seen in at least a couple of seasons. Kunitz battled the same issue, hernia. He's signed and still serviceable at the same age no less.

The last real big draw here is everyone thinks these young guys are ready to take on those big minutes and there won't be any major drawback from it, or they think they'll work themselves out over one full season if they're in there when it took Orpik himself 4/5 seasons to grow into, Orpik, the one we all like. Problem is, Orpik came in around that time where the Pens didn't really have that great of a D-corp and these new guys are. The Pens don't have 3,4,5 seasons to let these guys all come in at once and take over without serious warts.

Like I said earlier, they win the cup I see no reason to keep him, but if they don't....I see a couple year hiatus, and how do they feel about that for a team trying to win it all? We are looking at a 50% reduction of experience and leadership. Half the roster being young and inexperienced. That's not how you retool and win a cup, or expect too. That's why my question stands, are you all ready to sacrifice another season or two to get all your young guys in and in place to "seriously compete?"

Yeah, yeah, Sid and Geno, bla bla bla, seriously, all the guns a blaz'n?



This is all we are that this point.

We clearly disagree on how much we need Orpik to seriously compete.

 

[mpp9]

I don't like it either. But Orpik/Martin and Scuds/Letang is among the best top 4 Ds in the game. If Shero is able to leverage our depth behind them to land a quality longterm winger, I don't think we have much to ***** about.

I care more about Crosby and Malkin's ability to dominate in the postseason than Shero's draft strategy. But Im of the opinion that Despres is on the outs here.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Like you and many have said... we got these defenders for a reason, right?

Yes, but like getting a bunch of rolls of toilet paper, you only put one on the holder at a time. I guess some holders hold two.

Guess what, you have that in Bortuzzo, Despres, Maatta.

We're not in a rebuild here.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Yes, but like getting a bunch of rolls of toilet paper, you only put one on the holder at a time. I guess some holders hold two.

Guess what, you have that in Bortuzzo, Despres, Maatta.

We're not in a rebuild here.

And for all three of them to play, we need to let Orpik go. Even if its a bit of a downgrade at D (it will be at least short term) the real key is that we have like 3 million more dollars to spend on forwards. We have to go cheap somewhere next year because of the cap. We have good cheap d-men who will be ready to play. We don't have good cheap forwards.