Orpik's Inevitable Re-sign (Now with 100% Less Nathan Horton)

Discussion in 'Pittsburgh Penguins' started by Warm Cookies, Oct 6, 2013.

  1. Ogrezilla

    Ogrezilla Nerf Herder

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2009
    Messages:
    68,667
    Likes Received:
    13,581
    Trophy Points:
    156
    Location:
    Pittsburgh
    I don't know if he's weight room stronger, but he's more effective at moving players out of his way when he's standing still.
     
  2. Soggy Biscuit

    Soggy Biscuit Yep, it went in

    Joined:
    May 28, 2006
    Messages:
    65,392
    Likes Received:
    8,686
    Trophy Points:
    186
    You misinterpret the thread's intent - look at my post on page 3. I'm a steadfast supporter of DB and Shero, and I've said before that there are pros and cons to their philosophy.

    When most people project beyond this year they're assuming Orpik won't be here, and I don't see any historical basis for that. If that doesn't warrant discussion on a message board dedicated to hockey's future, I'm not sure what does. If you're tired of talking about it, you don't have to talk about it.
     
  3. Ogrezilla

    Ogrezilla Nerf Herder

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2009
    Messages:
    68,667
    Likes Received:
    13,581
    Trophy Points:
    156
    Location:
    Pittsburgh
    I'm also a Shero supporter. My historical basis is that Shero doesn't do many stupid things. Keeping Orpik itself wouldn't be that bad of a move in a bubble, but it would mean Shero's draft strategy of the last few years has been extremely stupid.
     
  4. Soggy Biscuit

    Soggy Biscuit Yep, it went in

    Joined:
    May 28, 2006
    Messages:
    65,392
    Likes Received:
    8,686
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Would it? Nobody's waiver-eligible until 2015 anyway, and the draft has always been discussed in terms of going BPA to acquire assets. We don't know how many of these prospects in the logjam will even be around by summer.
     
  5. Pens1566

    Pens1566 Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2005
    Messages:
    13,206
    Likes Received:
    355
    Trophy Points:
    154
    Location:
    WV
    I'll call Orpik getting dealt to the Ducks this season. Just a hunch.
     
  6. Aiastelmon

    Aiastelmon 2 for 3

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    5,380
    Likes Received:
    933
    Trophy Points:
    109
    Well, we do endlessly discuss the same issues because that's pretty much all you can do.

    Bottom line, Orpik and the Pens are not good partners for a deal. He will want 4-5 years at 4m+ a year, we want to resign PM and have lots of young talent, including Bort, ready to go. It won't happen.
     
  7. Darth Vitale

    Darth Vitale Dark Matter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2003
    Messages:
    28,171
    Likes Received:
    110
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Darkness

    It's an interesting thing because if you look at our forward signings and how Bylsma and Shero heap the love on their grinding forwards most years (or at least until they become too expensive for what they bring, like Cooke and Kennedy), you could easily argue the team will "do a Dupuis" with Orpik, and give him a nice raise and give him 4 more years (until his late 30s).

    On the other hand though, looking at the defense, and Scuderi's signing... I think that's more relevant than how we treat our veteran forwards. To me, with all those kids ready to jump in at a cheap price, and bringing Scuderi in at not a cheap price... that spells doom for Orpik. And I'll reiterate the longer the Pens go without negotiating (assuming they're not -- sounds like not), the more of an attitude Brooks will carry / the more defensive he'll get about it.

    He (rightfully) probably feels this team owes him one and that he's unique among the guys for speaking out bluntly etc when it needs a wake-up call, but ... I think Shero is going to be patient like he always is, watch what happens with the cap projections (which I think the teams get some kind of estimate from the league in March or April), and then decide if they want to negotiate, and by then it might be too late.

    Orpik took a nice discount the last time. He will expect the "respect contract", having watched all these other guys in their 30s get theirs last summer (3 of them to be exact)... and I don't think he's going to get it because unlike those guys, he's easier to replace at a cheaper price.
     
  8. Ugene Malkin

    Ugene Malkin Registered User

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2008
    Messages:
    37,797
    Likes Received:
    4,986
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Location:
    Pittsburgh
    Confusing tall and lanky does not equal stronger, and I disagree with just about everything you say here.

    He is no where near as good with the puck as Orpik by a good bit. You're pumping his tires a tad bit here.

    If he was all that, Orpik would be already gone.
     
  9. Ogrezilla

    Ogrezilla Nerf Herder

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2009
    Messages:
    68,667
    Likes Received:
    13,581
    Trophy Points:
    156
    Location:
    Pittsburgh
    2015 isn't that far away, and we aren't going to bring them all up at the same time. It needs to start happening.
     
  10. Ogrezilla

    Ogrezilla Nerf Herder

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2009
    Messages:
    68,667
    Likes Received:
    13,581
    Trophy Points:
    156
    Location:
    Pittsburgh
    I disagree. He isn't as good of a skater and he doesn't have the experience so he makes mistakes. The skating will keep him from ever being as good as Orpik was at his best.
     
  11. Crafton

    Crafton Liver-Eating Johnson

    Joined:
    May 6, 2010
    Messages:
    9,833
    Likes Received:
    92
    Trophy Points:
    75
    Location:
    San Francisco
    i don't think the probative value of the inquiry, namely Oprik's future with this team outweighs the grim relativity that Oprik's potential re-signing serves as the perfect springboard for the kinds of discussions that have already been thoroughly debated in the off-season. this is especially true given how far into the season we are - i don't see how anyone is better equipped to argue that Orpik will or will not be signed than they were three months ago when we saw dozens of line-ups without him and several examples of line-ups with a re-signed Orpik. moreover, i'm not sure using the language of 'inevitability' is the best means of fostering a discussion.

    sure i don't have to talk about anything, but it's a damn shame to see the best minds of my generation spend their time re-hashing topics that have already been thoroughly debated at an interval after not much has changed. i'll merely reiterate that i think this particular discussion would be more fruitful if it happened in the future.
     
  12. Soggy Biscuit

    Soggy Biscuit Yep, it went in

    Joined:
    May 28, 2006
    Messages:
    65,392
    Likes Received:
    8,686
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Kunitz didn't get a respect contract, he got a tiny raise after being a top 10 scorer. Scuderi, at the same age Brooks will be next year, took a haircut to be here.

    Orpik's married now and will have spent nearly 15 years with the organization. If the choice is to get paid what he's getting paid now for a few years to stay with a contender and the only team he's known or go somewhere else for a mil per more a season, I think he'll stay.
     
  13. Darth Vitale

    Darth Vitale Dark Matter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2003
    Messages:
    28,171
    Likes Received:
    110
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Darkness
    I think Ogre is right that about Bortuzzo's strength around the net and along the boards, but it's more a case of Orpik being less aggressive than he used to be, than it is Bortuzzo having overwhelming strength or something like that. If Orpik wanted to he could remain the strongest guy on the team in all these areas but I think because of his injuries and hernia problems and whatnot, he's decided to dish out less abuse during regular seasons so that he can be healthy in teh playoffs. He seemed to suggest as much during the Islanders series last year when asked about his increased aggressiveness.

    As for "with the puck" we have to define what we mean. I would say Orpik is a better skater with the puck but Ogre might be talking about the decisions he makes or the passes, etc. As far as skating though, for his size Orpik is one of the best / smoothest out there, and Bortuzzo isn't. I don't think they're close in the sense of "technical skating skills for a big guy", based on what I've seen. Then again I'm not a power skating instructor so I may be off my rocker, but just visually... Orpik's strides and pivots and whatnot, seem much smoother than Bortuzzo's.
     
  14. Aiastelmon

    Aiastelmon 2 for 3

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    5,380
    Likes Received:
    933
    Trophy Points:
    109
    Orpik is by far our worst D with the puck including Scuds, not sure what hockey you're watching the past few years. His outlet passes are awful, he ices the puck in non pressure situations, his touch on D to D passes and chips is terrible. He's always putting the puck in guys' skates and causing needless physical wear on Martin.

    The only value he has is skating, which ain't what it used to be, and hits, which are way down also. You can't even call him a physical player as he is awful in front of his own net, and he fails to even tie up guys with his stick. The only reason it isn't worse is he's with Martin, who could be the perfect security blanket for Depres.

    The very best use for Orpik is trade bait at the deadline, but I see us keeping him for the playoff run.
     
  15. Soggy Biscuit

    Soggy Biscuit Yep, it went in

    Joined:
    May 28, 2006
    Messages:
    65,392
    Likes Received:
    8,686
    Trophy Points:
    186
    I can't help what people choose to do with the topic. Besides, the same old arguments get brought up in every thread regardless.

    What's changed since the off-season? Well, most people's projected Orpik replacement hasn't even started the season in the NHL, for one.

    The point is that many have been automatically writing off Orpik in future line-ups, and I have serious doubts about that for the reasons I outlined. Given our history, we should be constructing projected line-ups with Orpik, rather than playing with the extra money that comes with assuming he won't be here.
     
  16. Sideline

    Sideline Registered User Sponsor

    Joined:
    May 23, 2004
    Messages:
    9,760
    Likes Received:
    784
    Trophy Points:
    184
    He also has the worst pinch to hold the offensive zone other than perhaps Engelland and Scuderi, but it's close.
     
  17. Darth Vitale

    Darth Vitale Dark Matter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2003
    Messages:
    28,171
    Likes Received:
    110
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Darkness
    You seem to be discounting how much players in their 30s value term (almost as much as dollars).

    Kunitz got almost 4M and 4 Years. That's a "respect" contract any way you cut it. Kunitz's numbers are at least somewhat inflated by playing with Crosby and everyone (including his agent) knows that. Kunitz isn't going to go somewhere else and start being the "offensive generator" on a top line, so almost getting a "4&4" on a contending team, playing with Crosby... is a great deal for him IMO. Scuderi didn't get as much money as he could have elsewhere probably, but he also got 4 Years. And his hit is still respectable. It's not like we low-balled him, at his age.

    When I say Orpik will want the "respect contract", I mean in the same way those other guys got close to the best deal they could get at their ages, on a competitive, cap-tight team (of course anyone can choose to go play for a doormat for an extra $2M a year but these guys want Cups), Orpik will want his 4 Years, 5M (or something like that). And he won't get it, because it's not apples and apples for him. We have no one in our system to replace a Kunitz or Dupuis, or even a Scuderi apparently... but we have a number of guys who can fill slots on our D if you're willing to accept the premise that by next year Robert Bortuzzo will be playing with Paul Martin.
     
  18. Ogrezilla

    Ogrezilla Nerf Herder

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2009
    Messages:
    68,667
    Likes Received:
    13,581
    Trophy Points:
    156
    Location:
    Pittsburgh
    Another change is that Maatta and Bortuzzo have shown that they are really good. I think we need to have openings on D for next season, and I think that more today than I did a month ago.

    Orpik is the longest tenured defender in Penguins history. That tells me historically, he has been here longer than should have been expected already. Orpik is out. Confirmed :laugh:
     
  19. Darth Vitale

    Darth Vitale Dark Matter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2003
    Messages:
    28,171
    Likes Received:
    110
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Darkness
    Also I'll add that Orpik's regular season play has declined each of the last two years (to my perception anyway, FWIW)... and it's likely it will continue in the sense that he's never going to be 2009 Orpik again. So you can't give him the 2009 Orpik money at this point... not in our situation.
     
  20. Soggy Biscuit

    Soggy Biscuit Yep, it went in

    Joined:
    May 28, 2006
    Messages:
    65,392
    Likes Received:
    8,686
    Trophy Points:
    186
    I'm still not sure how you're concluding that sort of raise from the Scuderi and Kunitz examples, CV. Term, sure, but Scuds took a discount and Kunitz stayed at basically the same cap hit despite a career year.

    And Bennett showed that he could fill a top 6 role last year more than any young defenseman has shown us he could fill a top 4 role to this point.

    Have they shown more than Bennett did last year?
     
  21. Soggy Biscuit

    Soggy Biscuit Yep, it went in

    Joined:
    May 28, 2006
    Messages:
    65,392
    Likes Received:
    8,686
    Trophy Points:
    186
    I don't think management feels the same way we do on that front.
     
  22. chethejet

    chethejet Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2012
    Messages:
    4,656
    Likes Received:
    392
    Trophy Points:
    94
    who can replace Orpik? Harrington is sound defensively, is a much better skater and cost effective. More importantly, the Pens have to integrate two outstanding young defense men who offer talent of a top two or at least a top four ability with friendly contracts.
     
  23. Ogrezilla

    Ogrezilla Nerf Herder

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2009
    Messages:
    68,667
    Likes Received:
    13,581
    Trophy Points:
    156
    Location:
    Pittsburgh
    Apples and oranges. There are 12 forward positions and Bennett is the only forward prospect we had anywhere close to ready for the NHL. There are 6 defenseman spots and we have at least 5 or 6 D-men who are fighting for NHL spots or could be in the next year or two.
     
  24. Aiastelmon

    Aiastelmon 2 for 3

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    5,380
    Likes Received:
    933
    Trophy Points:
    109
    I don't see the Kunitz or Dupuis deals as respect deals as much as a the reality of the lack of other options within the org or in FA. They have played at a level over the past few years that generally suits their TOI (if not their lines), and in a few years, will slide down the depth chart and hopefully TOI along with the increase in cap space to add replacements, most likely via trade. Though if you consider Neal and BB long term 2nd wheel solutions for Malkin and Crosby, then you can consider Kunitz and Dupuis adequate 3rd wheels for most of their remaining contracts, and a fair value in that role.

    For goodness sake, did you see the deals Clowe and Clarkson just got? Neither of those guys is an adequate 2nd wheel for any 1C in the league. I understand those are different types of players, but there is very little in FA at forward.
     
  25. billybudd

    billybudd 1for the other thumb

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2012
    Messages:
    21,170
    Likes Received:
    1,111
    Trophy Points:
    139
    I guess we're mostly talking about Dupuis, here, but it's worth noting that Shero tried to better-deal him in the form of Iginla. When Iggy didn't work out as a top 6 forward, a Dupuis re-signing always struck me as a fall-back position.

    In the case of Dupuis, there's not really any natural fit to backfill him. Our most-talented forward prospect is probably Sill or Kuhnackl, which speaks of how bereft we are in terms of skilled forwards. He was re-signed out of necessity because nobody else could do the job and a UFA forward would be more expensive and not necessarily better.

    With Orpik, though, there are two defensemen (Dumoulin and possibly Ruopp) on the cusp of being able to slot into his exact role, and that's not including Despres (whom I expect to be traded somewhere down the line). Dumoulin and Ruopp aren't guys who are ready for NHL work 3 or 4 years from now. In a pinch, Dumoulin could play right this second.

    I think the inestimable Darth Vitale is right on the money in saying the longer the Penguins go without engaging in contract talks with Orpik, the larger the chip on his shoulder will grow.

    If he makes it to the trade deadline without being re-signed, he's going UFA. If he goes UFA, he'll get paid. Either by a club that's set to lose a left-handed defensive D like the Rangers (Staal's almost certainly going to Carolina when his contract expires) or Kings (Willie Mitchell is really, really breaking down and Regehr's legs are shot), or by a young team that would be ecstatic over the proposition of adding an outspoken assistant Captain with a ring (Edmonton, Colorado...maybe Buffalo or Columbus).

    I don't think he's about to come back to us with an offer to knock $1 mil annually off the number they show him. Not after what he just saw Letang bank.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2013

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice
monitoring_string = "358c248ada348a047a4b9bb27a146148"