Orpik's Inevitable Re-sign (Now with 100% Less Nathan Horton)

mpp9

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Dec 5, 2010
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And for all three of them to play, we need to let Orpik go.

Management may not feel the need to have all three play here. Especially when it's pretty obvious they're looked at as assets.

I wouldn't marry yourself to any D prospect. It's not going to be good for your sanity.
 

Ogrezilla

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Management may not feel the need to have all three play here. Especially when it's pretty obvious they're looked at as assets.

I wouldn't marry yourself to any D prospect. It's not going to be good for your sanity.

If we can use them to get good cheap forwards, I would be perfectly happy. That's what our team needs the next year or two. Good, cheap guys to fill the line-up when Geno and Letang's new deals take effect. I don't care if its at F or D. What we have are good cheap D. We have no good cheap F coming up.
 

mpp9

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Ok. So Despres is moved for that cheap quality winger. Maatta either outplays Nisky or is sent back down. Nisky walks in free agency. Orpik is re-signed. And there's a battle next year for LD spot with Bort.

It's not the end of the world if that happens.
 

Ogrezilla

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Ok. So Despres is moved for that cheap quality winger. Maatta either outplays Nisky or is sent back down. Nisky walks in free agency. Orpik is re-signed. And there's a battle next year for LD spot with Bort.

It's not the end of the world if that happens.

if we can trade one of the d-men for a similar quality cheap forward, I agree. That immediately changes the entire scenario. Suddenly we have less openings at forward and less guys fighting for the D spots.
 

Speaking Moistly

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if we can trade one of the d-men for a similar quality cheap forward, I agree. That immediately changes the entire scenario. Suddenly we have less openings at forward and less guys fighting for the D spots.

So that young quality forward could be stuck on the fourth line, maybe the third if they really impress, for God knows how long while the precious favourites are in the top 6?

I think I'd feel differently about this if Bylsma was different. As it stands it's a new forward being treated like Despres or Bennett.

The problem isn't the wealth of young defensemen, it's the use of them. If there were these young guys in the defense then money could be spent on forwards, it would be the same problem if Shero had drafted forwards instead of defensemen. Trading for young forwards doesn't fix the underlying problem.
 

Shockmaster

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Ok. So Despres is moved for that cheap quality winger. Maatta either outplays Nisky or is sent back down. Nisky walks in free agency. Orpik is re-signed. And there's a battle next year for LD spot with Bort.

It's not the end of the world if that happens.

Or the Penguins can let Despres play this year to get him ready to be the #4 defenseman next year. Saves a lot of money, and they avoid signing a vet to a bad contract. And you still have other defense prospects to move for forward prospects.

At some point you need to move on from a longtime veteran. To find out what happens when you don't do that, look at the Steelers.
 

mpp9

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if we can trade one of the d-men for a similar quality cheap forward, I agree. That immediately changes the entire scenario. Suddenly we have less openings at forward and less guys fighting for the D spots.

Which kinda shoots down the idea that Shero's drafting philosophy was a mistake if we re-sign Orpik. I think Despres could be a great player here, but he's not a necessity. And all the trade rumors surrounding him the past year combined with him being benched constantly and sent down this year is just too much to ignore.

You've got Nisky who can be our #5 this year. And Dumoulin, Maatta and Harrington ready to compete the year after. Maatta already showing he could play in the NHL right now and Dumoulin knocking on the door.
 

Shockmaster

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Which kinda shoots down the idea that Shero's drafting philosophy was a mistake if we re-sign Orpik. I think Despres could be a great player here, but he's not a necessity. And all the trade rumors surrounding him the past year combined with him being benched constantly and sent down this year is just too much to ignore.

You've got Nisky who can be our #5 this year. And Dumoulin, Maatta and Harrington ready to compete the year after. Maatta already showing he could play in the NHL right now and Dumoulin knocking on the door.

You've also got Despres, who could be the #5 right now and give the Penguins cap relief by trading Niskanen. And if Despres does well enough, maybe he can be used in the top 4 in place of Orpik next year.

The Penguins have absoluetely nothing to lose by trading Niskanen and making Despres their #5 for the rest of the year.
 

billybudd

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Feb 1, 2012
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Without Dupuis:

Kunitz - Crosby - Bennett
Jokinen - Malkin - Neal

That pencils Bennett on one line.

This makes two presumptions that were unknowns at the time Dupuis was up for a new contract.

1. that Jokinen can finally fit with Malkin on the left wing.
2. that Bennett would add more production to a Crosby line than Pascal Dupuis can.

1 is looking like a smart bet, but 2 is not only not a given, but highly unlikely if you ask me.

Adding a guy who isn't wired to shoot (and has a muffin when he does) to a line that already has the league's best passer, while subtracting a guy who's 10th in even strength goals over the last 2 years isn't some no-brainer recipe for awesomeness.

It's certainly not as obvious of a backfill as Dumoulin/Ruopp would be for Orpik.
 

Dipsy Doodle

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This makes two presumptions that were unknowns at the time Dupuis was up for a new contract.

1. that Jokinen can finally fit with Malkin on the left wing.
2. that Bennett would add more production to a Crosby line than Pascal Dupuis can.

1 is looking like a smart bet, but 2 is not only not a given, but highly unlikely if you ask me.

Jokinen had already shown he could play with Malkin, and nobody said anything about Bennett adding more production than Dupuis.

Adding a guy who isn't wired to shoot (and has a muffin when he does) to a line that already has the league's best passer, while subtracting a guy who's 10th in even strength goals over the last 2 years isn't some no-brainer recipe for awesomeness.

It's certainly not as obvious of a backfill as Dumoulin/Ruopp would be for Orpik.



How'd Lundqvist let that muffin by him? ;)

So...it's more obvious that two guys with one year of pro hockey between them who've never played in an NHL game can backfill for 22 minutes a night on the blueline, than a guy who looked like our best forward after Sid and Geno pretty much whenever he played last year could succeed in Dupes' spot attached to Sid's hip?

Can't say we're on the same page there, mon frere.
 

billybudd

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Jokinen had already shown he could play with Malkin, and nobody said anything about Bennett adding more production than Dupuis.





How'd Lundqvist let that muffin by him? ;)

So...it's more obvious that two guys with one year of pro hockey between them who've never played in an NHL game can backfill for 22 minutes a night on the blueline, than a guy who looked like our best forward after Sid and Geno pretty much whenever he played last year could succeed in Dupes' spot attached to Sid's hip?

Can't say we're on the same page there, mon frere.


If Bennett isn't going to produce near as much as Dupuis, it's not logical to let Dupuis go and give Bennett his job.

Guys with muffins, which Bennett has, sometimes score on wrist shots and half-slappers despite themselves.



And yes, stylistically, there is far less difference between Orpik's game and that of Dumoulin or Ruopp than there is between Bennett and the type of winger Sid excels with.
 

Ugene Magic

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And for all three of them to play, we need to let Orpik go. Even if its a bit of a downgrade at D (it will be at least short term) the real key is that we have like 3 million more dollars to spend on forwards. We have to go cheap somewhere next year because of the cap. We have good cheap d-men who will be ready to play. We don't have good cheap forwards.

That's saying they're your #5, #6, and #7 D-man, there is no need to send Orpik anywhere.
 

Ogrezilla

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That's saying they're your #5, #6, and #7 D-man, there is no need to send Orpik anywhere.

1 of them will be good enough to be our number 4 guy. That will let us save money for a better winger even if we need to sign a vet number 7. That's the best allocation of money in my opinion.

Despres will be a better d-man for his price than whatever cheap forward we'd end up signing because we kept Orpik. We can fit under the cap either way, but we can spend the money on bigger needs if we use our D prospects.

Basically, I think Despres or Bortuzzo will be closer to Orpik's quality than whatever 1M forward we sign would be compared to the 3-4M guy we could sign if we let Orpik go.
 

Shockmaster

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1 of them will be good enough to be our number 4 guy. That will let us save money for a better winger even if we need to sign a vet number 7. That's the best allocation of money in my opinion.

Despres will be a better d-man for his price than whatever cheap forward we'd end up signing because we kept Orpik. We can fit under the cap either way, but we can spend the money on bigger needs if we use our D prospects.

Basically, I think Despres or Bortuzzo will be closer to Orpik's quality than whatever 1M forward we sign would be compared to the 3-4M guy we could sign if we let Orpik go.

Also, how effective will Orpik be in two years?
 

Ogrezilla

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I'm implying that Sid excels with straight line players who can shoot. Dupuis may not be ideal, but he better fits that description than Bennett ever will.

has Sid ever played with someone like Bennett? Especially with how Sid has been taking shots to start the year, I don't hate the idea of him with a great passer who can maintain puck possession.

Also, Sid has never excelled with guys like Dupuis against good defensive teams who can match up with us. Dupuis is just not a good option for Sid come playoff time. They were bad against Montreal. They were bad against Ottawa. They were bad against Boston.
 

Ugene Magic

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1 of them will be good enough to be our number 4 guy. That will let us save money for a better winger even if we need to sign a vet number 7. That's the best allocation of money in my opinion.

Despres will be a better d-man for his price than whatever cheap forward we'd end up signing because we kept Orpik. We can fit under the cap either way, but we can spend the money on bigger needs if we use our D prospects.

Basically, I think Despres or Bortuzzo will be closer to Orpik's quality than whatever 1M forward we sign would be compared to the 3-4M guy we could sign if we let Orpik go.

That's just like saying Niskanen is good enough to be a #4 guy, but that's not ideal. Not as a permanent fixture when you're sending away a better player to fit him in.
 

Ogrezilla

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That's just like saying Niskanen is good enough to be a #4 guy, but that's not ideal. Not as a permanent fixture when you're sending away a better player to fit him in.

there will be an inferior player somewhere. Either a d-man worse than Orpik or a forward worse than whoever we could sign with Orpik's salary cap space. The cap will make sure of that. There's a very good chance that Despres or Bortuzzo will outperform their salary. There is a much lower chance that we find a cheap forward who will do the same.

We need guys on cheap contracts who can out-perform their salary. Every team to win the Cup since the lockout has had at least one or two of them. Our only real chance to add guys like that are on defense barring a significant trade.

I'm not sure I can think of any more ways to say the same thing.
 

Shockmaster

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there will be an inferior player somewhere. Either a d-man worse than Orpik or a forward worse than whoever we could sign with Orpik's salary cap space. The cap will make sure of that. There's a very good chance that Despres or Bortuzzo will outperform their salary. There is a much lower chance that we find a cheap forward who will do the same.

I'm not sure I can think of any more ways to say the same thing.

And if they actually play Despres this year, maybe they find out he's not all that much inferior.
 

Shockmaster

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Right. I don't disagree with that. I'm just conceding that point because I would want Orpik to be let go either way.

I know what you mean. It just seems like some posters here don't get that a) Niskanen should be very much expendable right now, and b) by letting Despres play now, the Penguins can get a much better read on if he's ready for top 4 duties next season.
 

Dipsy Doodle

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If Bennett isn't going to produce near as much as Dupuis, it's not logical to let Dupuis go and give Bennett his job.

Guys with muffins, which Bennett has, sometimes score on wrist shots and half-slappers despite themselves.



There's nothing "muffin" about Bennett's shot. He has a very good one, save for the fact that it was hampered to a degree because of his injury last year. He still has enough accuracy to place a shot where it wouldn't fit if you taped a dime to either side, something Dupuis can't say on his best day.

Nobody said he wouldn't produce near as much as Dupuis, either. This might be unintentional, but you're changing your position here. You first said the presumption was that Bennett would add more production to Sid's line than Dupuis. That was also untrue.

Bennett has shown himself to be more capable of filling a top 6 role - Dupuis' role or otherwise - than any defense prospect has shown capable of filling a top 4 role. That's the crux of the issue.

Personally, I think both Bennett and Despres could succeed in those roles. But if we're trying to look at matters from management's perspective, I don't see how anyone could argue that any of our young defensemen are more capable of stepping into a top 4 role than Bennett was capable of stepping into a top 6 role. There's just nothing to base that on.

And yes, stylistically, there is far less difference between Orpik's game and that of Dumoulin or Ruopp than there is between Bennett and the type of winger Sid excels with.

Who cares about style? We're talking about being able to fill a role. And what winger like Bennett has Crosby spent any amount of time with?

I don't understand where you're trying to go with this.
 

KIRK

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I agree it's probably inevitable. This organization has a wierd fascination with keeping the same group around even when some of those guys aren't any good. Unknown to much of the hockey world, Orpik has been on a steep decline for years. Ideally Shero could take advantage of that and get something back, even if it's just a mid-round pick or a reclamation project. You also get the added benefit of addition by subtraction - Bortuzzo or Niskanen have to be considered upgrades.

In other words, I expect a 4 year deal at $4.75m per.

Nuts, but probably right. Personally, what he SHOULD get is something along the lines of Chris Phillips last two deals. One before this was 3.5M per year, 4 years. This one is 3.1M per year, 3 years. His skills are diminishing. Give him a 'thanks for the memories', you're now a 4/5 deal . . . something around 3.5M.

One other thing: With the raises for Geno AND Tanger hitting and with Sutter being a RFA, is there any money to give Orpik a million dollar raise?
 

Ogrezilla

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Nuts, but probably right. Personally, what he SHOULD get is something along the lines of Chris Phillips last two deals. One before this was 3.5M per year, 4 years. This one is 3.1M per year, 3 years. His skills are diminishing. Give him a 'thanks for the memories', you're now a 4/5 deal . . . something around 3.5M.

One other thing: With the raises for Geno AND Tanger hitting and with Sutter being a RFA, is there any money to give Orpik a million dollar raise?

not if we want any other bottom 6 forwards making 1M or more.
 

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