Orpik's Inevitable Re-sign (Now with 100% Less Nathan Horton)

[IcedCapp]

I signed Horton with the Dallas Stars in NHL 14. Then he got hurt for two months.

******* Nathan Horton

Not sure why that word is filtered. Not a curse word.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

To be perfectly honest, I think it would have been stupid for us to sign Horton to a 5+ mil per deal.

We're talking about a guy who produced at a 42 point pace last year, who last hit 60 points in '07-'08, who's played more than 67 games exactly once in the last 5 seasons, and who won't even play until December or January because he's currently recovering from shoulder surgery. Did I mention that this is an offense-only player who's entire offensive game is predicated on his shot?

No, that doesn't sound like a responsible investment at all for a contender that's already committed big money to a small group of players. Two nice playoff runs or not.

 

[ds246pit]

Z and Martin both had a terrible year. They have both turned their games around, while Oprik had gotten worse each year since.

Agreed. I loved the Z signing that year and thought the price was decent compared to Martin. He sucked for us but so did Martin (and Gonchar the first year). I understand they freed up cap to go after the big fish like Suter and Parise but it would be really nice to have Z and his shot blocking and solid shut-down defense in the lineup right now. We probably would not have kept Dupuis but i could live with that.

Kunitz-Crosby-Bennett
Jokinen-Malkin-Neal
Jeffrey-Sutter-Kobasew
Glass-Vitale-Adams

Scuderi-Letang
Orpik-Martin
Michalek-Niskanen

Lots of flexibility to move a dman like Orpik or Nisk to get offensive help if needed but that would be an amazing top 6 defensive crew.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

The FA winger market has, and will continue to suck. Norton's contract isn't any good now, and will get a heck of a lot worse in the next few years. Clowe, Jagr, Clarkson, etc etc, awful deals.

We have the assets on D to trade for a young winger or near-NHL prospect, and I suppose that's the best course IF we intend to let Dupuis or Kunitz slide to the third line sometime soon.

So this really is the time to grab that player so they can develop a bit on the bottom six.

But where do you find the room to play them? When healthy we're already sitting DJ and Dags. You're not trading BB, Kunitz or Dupuis. And you'd be nuts to trade JJ at only 2mil in a contract year, he'll vastly outproduce that contract, and he's the only guy that can fill in if Sid or Geno have injuries.

So you'd really want to batch up a D prospect like Depres with DJ and/or Dags, and give that up for a young guy like Palmieri, but hopefully a bit better. And then sit one of your third liners. The only thing you can do here is slide Kobe to the 4th line.

This is like 10 things I can't ever see the Pens doing.

 

[Shady Machine]

That is SUCH a red herring .

"No better free agent forward than Dupuis signed anywhere this off season".
- "Disagree, for instance there was Nathan Horton"
"He wanted a small market!"
- "You think Pittsburgh is not a place to bring up kids?"
"His contract was too big and too long"
- "Fair enough, I disagree, but that's arguable. He is still better than Dupuis and much more the kind of player we actually need."
"But Crosby doesn't want to play with ANYONE but Dupuis!"
- "I find that statement bizarre, and even if that's true that is Bylsma's problem and doesn't change that Horton is better than Dupuis."
"Why are people so hung up on Nathan Horton!?!"

Thanks for saving me some time trying to catch up on the thread.

 

[Darth Vitale]

You know who this thread is not supposed to be about?

 

[Ogrezilla]

To be perfectly honest, I think it would have been stupid for us to sign Horton to a 5+ mil per deal.

We're talking about a guy who produced at a 42 point pace last year, who last hit 60 points in '07-'08, who's played more than 67 games exactly once in the last 5 seasons, and who won't even play until December or January because he's currently recovering from shoulder surgery. Did I mention that this is an offense-only player who's entire offensive game is predicated on his shot?

No, that doesn't sound like a responsible investment at all for a contender that's already committed big money to a small group of players. Two nice playoff runs or not.

Agreed. Nathan Horton is just about as good as Kunitz. He produces almost exactly as much as Kunitz, though he's younger and a little better at scoring goals. But he is also has a much scarier injury history for a guy who wanted a long term deal and a million and a half extra dollars.

As for Orpik, I really hope he is gone next year. We are at the point where Shero needs to use the guys he's drafted and keeping Orpik throws a big damn wrench into that.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Agreed. Nathan Horton is just about as good as Kunitz. He produces almost exactly as much as Kunitz, though he's younger and a little better at scoring goals. But he is also has a much scarier injury history for a guy who wanted a long term deal and a million and a half extra dollars.

As for Orpik, I really hope he is gone next year. We are at the point where Shero needs to use the guys he's drafted and keeping Orpik throws a big damn wrench into that.

Yeah, that's where I stand on the Orpik issue. But playing devil's advocate, Nisky and Engelland will likely be gone by next year anyway, so that would open up room for a couple young defensemen.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Yeah, that's where I stand on the Orpik issue. But playing devil's advocate, Nisky and Engelland will likely be gone by next year anyway, so that would open up room for a couple young defensemen.

I don't want a young defenseman as the number 7. I mean, if there's a long term injury ya, I want a young guy to get called up. I want some vet who is expected to play for 1 game injuries and stuff like that to be the number 7.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I don't want a young defenseman as the number 7. I mean, if there's a long term injury ya, I want a young guy to get called up. I want somebody who is expected to play for 1 game injuries and stuff like that.

Ideally. But the #7 has to be cheap and play his role well too.

Engelland won't be cheap after this year, and I'm not sure it makes sense to go dumpster diving and hope we get a decent #7 via FA.

After this year, I'd be fine with rotating 3 young defensemen around the bottom pairing if we choose to retain Orpik.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Ideally. But the #7 has to be cheap and play his role well too.

Engelland won't be cheap after this year, and I'm not sure it makes sense to go dumpster diving and hope we get a decent #7 via FA.

After this year, I'd be fine with rotating 3 young defensemen around the bottom pairing if we choose to retain Orpik.

If Engo isn't cheap next year then somebody somewhere has made a mistake.

 

[KIRK]

Following up on a post above...

If we were to trade Orpik, it got me thinking about something. He had a big offer from the Rangers when he was a FA last time and he was waiting to see what we were going to do about Hossa before he made his decision.

The Rangers are in all kinds of disarray right now. Their fans may say they have defense, etc but they are missing a guy like Orpik on their defense.

I wonder what they would think about Orpik for Kreider. I'm sure the fans would whine about us needing to give them the world but it might make sense as a hockey trade for both sides.

I don't see how you can bring him back. Going into the 2014-2015 season, you'll have Maatta, Despres, Dumoulin, and maybe even Harrington. Resign Orpik, and three of those guys are in the minors to start next year.

Maybe you do that-- there's nothing to say that you CAN'T-- but then you have to let Martin walk, or this entire 'draft PMD's' strategy has been a fool's errand.

Yeah, that's where I stand on the Orpik issue. But playing devil's advocate, Nisky and Engelland will likely be gone by next year anyway, so that would open up room for a couple young defensemen.

Agree with the sentiment that you don't want a young guy sitting as your #7. Above is my thoughts as to why you let Orpik walk. I think you're in the same place.

But, now here's the fun question: Do you move him when Letang comes back or let him walk for nothing. Maybe you keep Nisky, who has a much lower trade value, and make an impact deal for Orpik.

Tough call: Maybe make yourself weaker this year (and that wouldn't be a given) to have something to show for Orpik after this season.

Personally, I expect Shero to err on the side of caution.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

I don't see how you can bring him back. Going into the 2014-2015 season, you'll have Maatta, Despres, Dumoulin, and maybe even Harrington. Resign Orpik, and three of those guys are in the minors to start next year.

Maybe you do that-- there's nothing to say that you CAN'T-- but then you have to let Martin walk, or this entire 'draft PMD's' strategy has been a fool's errand.

If they re-sign Orpik then it pretty much tells me that they're doomed until there's a major change. The draft strategy just for ***** and gigles because it's all about the aging vets and they're just going to ice an increasingly deteriorated roster in key places; not to mention the cap implications. Keeping Orpik just creates a mess and cripples who will be the forwards. I want not part of what Orpik is like in two years or even next year.

 

[KIRK]

If they re-sign Orpik then it pretty much tells me that they're doomed until there's a major change. The draft strategy just for ***** and gigles because it's all about the aging vets and they're just going to ice an increasingly deteriorated roster in key places; not to mention the cap implications. Keeping Orpik just creates a mess and cripples who will be the forwards. I want not part of what Orpik is like in two years or even next year.

I'd like the young guys to make the older more expensive guys expendable in Whitney style trades. That won't happen until you play them and/or stop the whole 'we are family' approach to determining who's expendable.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

If Engo isn't cheap next year then somebody somewhere has made a mistake.

He's an effective enforcer who can play competent bottom pair minutes. I don't expect him to be making less than a mil per, at the very least, and I don't think that would be a great investment for us.

Agree with the sentiment that you don't want a young guy sitting as your #7. Above is my thoughts as to why you let Orpik walk. I think you're in the same place.

But, now here's the fun question: Do you move him when Letang comes back or let him walk for nothing. Maybe you keep Nisky, who has a much lower trade value, and make an impact deal for Orpik.

Tough call: Maybe make yourself weaker this year (and that wouldn't be a given) to have something to show for Orpik after this season.

Personally, I expect Shero to err on the side of caution.

Orpik and Martin made for a solid top 4 pairing last playoffs, and Niskanen has never shown he can handle that type of responsibility in the post-season. Based on that alone, I'd probably move Nisky.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

I'd like the young guys to make the older more expensive guys expendable in Whitney style trades. That won't happen until you play them and/or stop the whole 'we are family' approach to determining who's expendable.

It's already noticeable too, Despres should have gotten that experience last year. If Orpik doesn't get re-signed it's a promising sign.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

It's already noticeable too, Despres should have gotten that experience last year. If Orpik doesn't get re-signed it's a promising sign.

Nope, It was important that Eaton got that time so he could be ready to get scratched in the POs.

 

[KIRK]

It's already noticeable too, Despres should have gotten that experience last year. If Orpik doesn't get re-signed it's a promising sign.

Yes, he should have. Perhaps the year before that. But, he didn't.

Funny, if you think about it, but for all of the defensemen that Ray Shero has drafted who didn't have a chance to play before the Pens won the cup, only Robert Bortuzzo has become a starter.

That's how many defensemen drafted in the first three rounds? And, in seven years of Sid and Geno, you've got Borts and a rental of Brenden Morrow to show for that investment.

Yeah, I know, we've got Maatta, Despres, Pouliot, Dumoulin, Harrington, etc. Then again, the issue for the Pens since winning the cup hasn't been HAVING an abundance of high end defensive prospects.

 

[KIRK]

He's an effective enforcer who can play competent bottom pair minutes. I don't expect him to be making less than a mil per, at the very least, and I don't think that would be a great investment for us.



Orpik and Martin made for a solid top 4 pairing last playoffs, and Niskanen has never shown he can handle that type of responsibility in the post-season. Based on that alone, I'd probably move Nisky.

1. Whether or not Engo resigns, you don't want a young player iced as your #7.

2. You know that I wouldn't hesitate to move both IF a good hockey trade presented itself for Orpik. As for Nisky, I'd move him regardless for two reasons: One, if you want a guy like Maatta (or Despres) picking up some of his moments, then you really do want him playing on a third pairing this year (otherwise, you've got the built in excuse to resign Orpik, because the young guy won't be 'ready' for that kind of responsibility). Two, even if Maatta sticks and struggles, it's not as if you don't have Despres and Dumoulin as fall back options.

EDIT: You know what, I wouldn't even be opposed to moving Nisky and Engo and working Despres, Maatta, and Borts in a three man cycle where each would get about 55 games.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

I

1. Whether or not Engo resigns, you don't want a young player iced as your #7.

2. You know that I wouldn't hesitate to move both IF a good hockey trade presented itself for Orpik. As for Nisky, I'd move him regardless for two reasons: One, if you want a guy like Maatta (or Despres) picking up some of his moments, then you really do want him playing on a third pairing this year (otherwise, you've got the built in excuse to resign Orpik, because the young guy won't be 'ready' for that kind of responsibility). Two, even if Maatta sticks and struggles, it's not as if you don't have Despres and Dumoulin as fall back options.

EDIT: You know what, I wouldn't even be opposed to moving Nisky and Engo and working Despres, Maatta, and Borts in a three man cycle where each would get about 55 games.

I would be good with that as well, and it would mean they're basically competing for orpik's top 4 spot for next year. You pick up an older FA dman ala Eaton for your 7th next year or let Dumo sit in the pressbox if you feel he has nothing left to gain at WB.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

1. Whether or not Engo resigns, you don't want a young player iced as your #7.

2. You know that I wouldn't hesitate to move both IF a good hockey trade presented itself for Orpik. As for Nisky, I'd move him regardless for two reasons: One, if you want a guy like Maatta (or Despres) picking up some of his moments, then you really do want him playing on a third pairing this year (otherwise, you've got the built in excuse to resign Orpik, because the young guy won't be 'ready' for that kind of responsibility). Two, even if Maatta sticks and struggles, it's not as if you don't have Despres and Dumoulin as fall back options.

EDIT: You know what, I wouldn't even be opposed to moving Nisky and Engo and working Despres, Maatta, and Borts in a three man cycle where each would get about 55 games.

I'd send Olli down, move Nisky and Engo, and call up Des and Dumo.

Let Des, Dumo, and Bort rotate.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

As much as I tend to agree about Maatta going down, i'm getting spoiled watching the guy. He's the real deal.

 

[vodeni]

Nope, It was important that Eaton got that time so he could be ready to get scratched in the POs.

that is one of the things I will never get over. And no one called them on that, instead likes of pgh media praising this move....
same thing with Glass playing 48 regular season games and getting benched, or not playing JJ, getting upset over and over again

however, Despres must play, don't understand lack of love here. Let him get 80 games under his belt. plenty veterans in Martin, Letang, Scuds and Orpik or Nisky (send one or both) and fill bottom pair with youngsters...let them play the entire season...no brainer

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

1. Whether or not Engo resigns, you don't want a young player iced as your #7.

2. You know that I wouldn't hesitate to move both IF a good hockey trade presented itself for Orpik. As for Nisky, I'd move him regardless for two reasons: One, if you want a guy like Maatta (or Despres) picking up some of his moments, then you really do want him playing on a third pairing this year (otherwise, you've got the built in excuse to resign Orpik, because the young guy won't be 'ready' for that kind of responsibility). Two, even if Maatta sticks and struggles, it's not as if you don't have Despres and Dumoulin as fall back options.

EDIT: You know what, I wouldn't even be opposed to moving Nisky and Engo and working Despres, Maatta, and Borts in a three man cycle where each would get about 55 games.

My biggest reason for not moving Orpik this year is that I don't want to worry about Martin having to find chemistry with somebody else this season. None of the other options seem like a particularly good fit right now.

I'd be content this season to see Nisky moved and Engo and Orpik play out the year, with Maatta sent back, Despres beside Bortuzzo, and Dumoulin/Harrington called up when injuries strike.

 

[JTG]

That is SUCH a red herring .

"No better free agent forward than Dupuis signed anywhere this off season".
- "Disagree, for instance there was Nathan Horton"
"He wanted a small market!"
- "You think Pittsburgh is not a place to bring up kids?"
"His contract was too big and too long"
- "Fair enough, I disagree, but that's arguable. He is still better than Dupuis and much more the kind of player we actually need."
"But Crosby doesn't want to play with ANYONE but Dupuis!"
- "I find that statement bizarre, and even if that's true that is Bylsma's problem and doesn't change that Horton is better than Dupuis."
"Why are people so hung up on Nathan Horton!?!"

That is not how the conversation went...and if you think that's how it went, you didn't truly read what I said.