Prospect Info: Olli Juolevi, Pt. III | Off to Juo-tica

[Pavel96]

What a load of passive aggressive nonsense. Can you blame people for getting excited about a prospect in his first ahl game after he did well? Do you expect people to come post that he is a bust when he doesn't do well a few games after? I understand, we all need to wait and look at a large sample size. But don't come here ****ting on some excitement people had after the very first game.

You mad bro? Haha what a load of nonsense. I can comment on other comments. That's what you do here. I am not blaming people. I am pointing out differences in comments people are making after one game as compared to 3. If you understand my point then why put on such a show? Lol you have to star out your words and you are telling me what to do on here? What a show I love it!

 

[Hit the post]

Did not watch but eh...that looks pretty ugly on paper.

That -6 figure is pretty much meaningless from my POV with any context (remove that number and the "stat line" doesn't look pretty ugly - not claiming it's great).

 

[Pavel96]

How is posting about getting exited about the first good game a prospect had a bad thing here? Or not conducive to discussion? Positivity after a good showing is not allowed to be talked about?

Ranting about positivity with a name like yours? Your username isn't positive and is bringing down my mood. Can you please change it? I could understand if the poster below was going on about this but....

Ok so does anyone actually want to chime in about how he's playing or should we just argue with each other?

 

[Dr Good Vibes]

I like being positive as much as the next guy. In fact, my demeanor definitely leans more towards optimism than pessimism. But at a certain point reality needs to outweigh faith and sunny expectations.

Juolevi has a terminal flaw in his game that will without a doubt hold him back from ever being an NHL player let alone a top 4 D man or top 2 (lol at this point). He can't win board battles. Dump the puck into his corner and he'll lose the puck to the other team. None of Olli's strengths are strong enough to outshine this crippling weakness in a defensive prospect.

At this point, he looks like a total bust. I called that he would struggle in the AHL. You could see him struggling in preseason, in young stars, I mean, it's not a surprise he's struggling in the AHL. He won't get called up this year. If he does, he'll be terrible. The simple fact is that he's a very, very long shot to make the NHL at this point. A lot of things need to go suddenly and miraculously right for this kid to make the NHL.

Again, I'm all for positivity, but an insistence on ignoring reality demonstrates a preference for delusion. Olli was a bad pick, he's a bad player even relative to peers in his draft year, and he's probably not going to be a top 4 D.

 

[krutovsdonut]

Absolutely true. But this is a discussion board, not Rogers Arena. The purpose of the boards is to give opinions and discuss them with others, not to cheer "rah rah go Canucks go" which serves no purpose in a discussion.

none of this discussion serves a purpose. we make no decisions here based on our learned observations and the chances of any decision maker being influenced by our posts are infinitessimal. the very idea of being a fan at its core is irrational. the idea of requiring that we be completely rational when discussing out irrational passtime/timewaste seems out of place.

i am all for trying to stay logical but i think anything to excess is bad and a little unwarranted enthusiasm is often a good thing.

not only that, but the greatest most exciting sports events are often the unpredictable and unexpected things. the lack of predictabiity is one of the things that attract us to competitive sport.

so "go canucks"!

 

[Pavel96]

I like being positive as much as the next guy. In fact, my demeanor definitely leans more towards optimism than pessimism. But at a certain point reality needs to outweigh faith and sunny expectations.

Juolevi has a terminal flaw in his game that will without a doubt hold him back from ever being an NHL player let alone a top 4 D man or top 2 (lol at this point). He can't win board battles. Dump the puck into his corner and he'll lose the puck to the other team. None of Olli's strengths are strong enough to outshine this crippling weakness in a defensive prospect.

At this point, he looks like a total bust. I called that he would struggle in the AHL. You could see him struggling in preseason, in young stars, I mean, it's not a surprise he's struggling in the AHL. He won't get called up this year. If he does, he'll be terrible. The simple fact is that he's a very, very long shot to make the NHL at this point. A lot of things need to go suddenly and miraculously right for this kid to make the NHL.

Again, I'm all for positivity, but an insistence on ignoring reality demonstrates a preference for delusion. Olli was a bad pick, he's a bad player even relative to peers in his draft year, and he's probably not going to be a top 4 D.

Canadiens' Victor Mete: Looking like top-pair defenseman

Only drafted 4 rounds later and they played on the same junior team.

 

[MS]

that's literally how a sports fan acts. they try as hard as they can to remain upbeat and positive and supportive of their team and players.

it's a necessary voluntary suspension of cynicism. hockey as a sport would not exist without fans who adopt that attitude. a high percentage do so fully aware of and even embracing the inherent logical shortcomings.

Oh, come on.

This is an intelligent discussion board aiming to have deep and accurate discussion about topics at hand. People who want to waive pom-poms can join the Canucks Booster Club and inaccurate opinions are going to get called out here.

Also being an analytical fan doesn't make me any less of a fan than the pom-pom crowd.

How is posting about getting exited about the first good game a prospect had a bad thing here? Or not conducive to discussion? Positivity after a good showing is not allowed to be talked about?



While I get your premise, this is not happening (in general). Prospects have their ups and downs. I just took issue with someone trying to crap on people getting excited about a prospect (or player) after their first showing this year.

Fair enough on the 2nd point.

On the first point, that is absolutely what's happening here and has always happened here. A majority of posters are blind to reality on prospect development and convince themselves that everything is great with almost everyone.

 

[Dr Good Vibes]

Canadiens' Victor Mete: Looking like top-pair defenseman

Only drafted 4 rounds later and they played on the same junior team.

Plus McAvoy, Sergachev, Cholowski etc, etc, so many great D in that draft. How sick would it be to have McAvoy on the Canucks right now? Sigh.

 

[krutovsdonut]

biega on waivers. i wonder if he pairs with juolevi if he makes it down there.

 

[Melvin]

none of this discussion serves a purpose. we make no decisions here based on our learned observations and the chances of any decision maker being influenced by our posts are infinitessimal. the very idea of being a fan at its core is irrational. the idea of requiring that we be completely rational when discussing out irrational passtime/timewaste seems out of place.

i am all for trying to stay logical but i think anything to excess is bad and a little unwarranted enthusiasm is often a good thing.

not only that, but the greatest most exciting sports events are often the unpredictable and unexpected things. the lack of predictabiity is one of the things that attract us to competitive sport.

so "go canucks"!

You can be as positive and enthusiastic as you want. Nobody's stopping you. I'm just pointing out that blind optimism and enthusiasm doesn't really feed into discussion.

"I am still optimistic and hoping for the best!"

"great!"

discussion over. If that's what you want then that'd fine. To me it's pretty pointless on a discussion board.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

none of this discussion serves a purpose. we make no decisions here based on our learned observations and the chances of any decision maker being influenced by our posts are infinitessimal. the very idea of being a fan at its core is irrational. the idea of requiring that we be completely rational when discussing out irrational passtime/timewaste seems out of place.

i am all for trying to stay logical but i think anything to excess is bad and a little unwarranted enthusiasm is often a good thing.

not only that, but the greatest most exciting sports events are often the unpredictable and unexpected things. the lack of predictabiity is one of the things that attract us to competitive sport.

so "go canucks"!

Lost me when you start to define what being a fan is supposed to be.

I enjoy analytics and trying to predict prospects and following them closely. I also don't care for any other team winning the Cup but the Canucks. I've been a Canucks fan ever since the 1994 cup run, I was 10 yrs old at the time and the NHL wasn't exactly accessible in Finland at the time.

Too bad that I am still not an actual fan because my assessment of a prospect is too grounded in reality, instead of trying to see things in a positive light.

 

[Pavel96]

Plus McAvoy, Sergachev, Cholowski etc, etc, so many great D in that draft. How sick would it be to have McAvoy on the Canucks right now? Sigh.

Completely agree. I just find it inexcusable that a player on the same junior team, who some that year saw as a more valuable dman (to that junior team - as reflected in ice team and matchups put in) was seen as a 4th round pick and yet still has been able to completely outpace the player selected 5th overall. Yet excuse after excuse is made that could and should apply more to this other player taken in the 4th round or some of those you mention that all were taken after Olli. It's appalling. Just call it as it is like you did previously and move on and if something changes great. But why pretend?

 

[krutovsdonut]

You can be as positive and enthusiastic as you want. Nobody's stopping you.

is that really true? people are always attacking rmb for it. anytime m2b does it he is accused of being childish. multiple enthusiastic posters have been banned here because of the fights it gets them into. basically people seem to go out of their way here to shout down positive enthusiasm.

otoh, gratuitous irrational negativity gets a pass. there are plenty of posts here that consist of nothing but drive by negativity and snark. i don't see you or ms chiming in to engage those posters in heuristic interventions to help them stop making pointless comments.

 

[kanuck87]

is that really true? people are always attacking rmb for it. anytime m2b does it he is accused of being childish. multiple enthusiastic posters have been banned here because of the fights it gets them into. basically people seem to go out of their way here to shout down positive enthusiasm.

otoh, gratuitous irrational negativity gets a pass. there are plenty of posts here that consist of nothing but drive by negativity and snark. i don't see you or ms chiming in to engage those posters in heuristic interventions to help them stop making pointless comments.

Do the negative posters in those altercations get banned too?

 

[Pavel96]

is that really true? people are always attacking rmb for it. anytime m2b does it he is accused of being childish. multiple enthusiastic posters have been banned here because of the fights it gets them into. basically people seem to go out of their way here to shout down positive enthusiasm.

otoh, gratuitous irrational negativity gets a pass. there are plenty of posts here that consist of nothing but drive by negativity and snark. i don't see you or ms chiming in to engage those posters in heuristic interventions to help them stop making pointless comments.

He didn't say no one's stopping you and everyone will agree with you. You are allowed to post your opinions. No one is stopping you. Other people are allowed to post their opinions - why try to stop them?

 

[Love]

I like being positive as much as the next guy. In fact, my demeanor definitely leans more towards optimism than pessimism. But at a certain point reality needs to outweigh faith and sunny expectations.

Juolevi has a terminal flaw in his game that will without a doubt hold him back from ever being an NHL player let alone a top 4 D man or top 2 (lol at this point). He can't win board battles. Dump the puck into his corner and he'll lose the puck to the other team. None of Olli's strengths are strong enough to outshine this crippling weakness in a defensive prospect.

At this point, he looks like a total bust. I called that he would struggle in the AHL. You could see him struggling in preseason, in young stars, I mean, it's not a surprise he's struggling in the AHL. He won't get called up this year. If he does, he'll be terrible. The simple fact is that he's a very, very long shot to make the NHL at this point. A lot of things need to go suddenly and miraculously right for this kid to make the NHL.

Again, I'm all for positivity, but an insistence on ignoring reality demonstrates a preference for delusion. Olli was a bad pick, he's a bad player even relative to peers in his draft year, and he's probably not going to be a top 4 D.

Good to know. I always had this same opinion of Juolevi. It's unfortunate that this flaw hasn't changed.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

is that really true? people are always attacking rmb for it. anytime m2b does it he is accused of being childish. multiple enthusiastic posters have been banned here because of the fights it gets them into. basically people seem to go out of their way here to shout down positive enthusiasm.

otoh, gratuitous irrational negativity gets a pass. there are plenty of posts here that consist of nothing but drive by negativity and snark. i don't see you or ms chiming in to engage those posters in heuristic interventions to help them stop making pointless comments.

I dont get this. Why do you feel being biased (positive or negative) is a desirable attribute to have?

 

[krutovsdonut]

Lost me when you start to define what being a fan is supposed to be.

I enjoy analytics and trying to predict prospects and following them closely. I also don't care for any other team winning the Cup but the Canucks. I've been a Canucks fan ever since the 1994 cup run, I was 10 yrs old at the time and the NHL wasn't exactly accessible in Finland at the time.

Too bad that I am still not an actual fan because my assessment of a prospect is too grounded in reality, instead of trying to see things in a positive light.

no offence intended, but fan is short for "fanatic". fandom is inherently an irrational thing. your particular approach to fandom of trying to do something irrational in a completely rational fashion is certainly a valid form of fandom, but it is not the only one and my point in posting was that it is not a normative or exclusive form of fandom even on a message board where people use analytics.

let me put it another way. a variation on the approach to message board fandom would be leaf fandom here, which is an aggressive adversarial approach to rational fandom where they use every argument available to build up their players and their team and relentlessly denigrate other teams, and where they are relentlessly optimistic about and overvaluing of their prospects. for example, liljegren just got sent down to the ahl for his d+2 season, an event that for juolevi was considered catastrophic, but hardly registered or dampened leaf ardour for their prospect. many leaf fans will argue vigorously that liljegren was a steal and could have been a top ten or even top five pick, yet at the same time have no concerns about the guy at d+2 being unable to crack a questionable leaf d corps that is desperately in need of an inexpensive option and they still project him as a top pair prospect. you may call that irrational but i just call it rationally infused optimism. i can go have a fairly rational discussion in the leaf forum if i cared about anything leaf related. very comparable to the fairly rational discussion i can have here.

 

[lousy]

You mad bro? Haha what a load of nonsense. I can comment on other comments. That's what you do here. I am not blaming people. I am pointing out differences in comments people are making after one game as compared to 3. If you understand my point then why put on such a show? Lol you have to star out your words and you are telling me what to do on here? What a show I love it!

You were harping on people for being excited for a prospect after the first game. If you cannot see why that is a problem then I do not know what to tell you. Do you expect everyone to come charging in here after a few games to proclaim doom? This is a fan board. I can understand people not being happy with the progression of a prospect. But you took it too far by trying to call out people who were happy and excited with the first game.

Ranting about positivity with a name like yours? Your username isn't positive and is bringing down my mood. Can you please change it? I could understand if the poster below was going on about this but....

Why am I not surprised you would go out of your way to make a comment like this?

 

[krutovsdonut]

I dont get this. Why do you feel being biased (positive or negative) is a desirable attribute to have?

you and everyone here are inherently irrationally biased as sports team fans serious enough about it to come and post about it.

so step one, own your irrational bias and realize its not an inherently bad thing.

then it's just a question of how much bias. the line you have drawn in the sand on that is more arbitrary than you acknowledge and the judgments you cast on fellow fans who draw other lines more unfair than you admit.

this is not a place to win arguments or decide who is smarter or more popular. it's a place to discuss hockey.

and on that note, i am out until the game starts.

 

[Melvin]

is that really true? people are always attacking rmb for it. anytime m2b does it he is accused of being childish. multiple enthusiastic posters have been banned here because of the fights it gets them into. basically people seem to go out of their way here to shout down positive enthusiasm.

otoh, gratuitous irrational negativity gets a pass. there are plenty of posts here that consist of nothing but drive by negativity and snark. i don't see you or ms chiming in to engage those posters in heuristic interventions to help them stop making pointless comments.

.
I don't chime in until someone tries to defend the pointless comments as if they are valuable parts of a discussion. If someone wants to defend the dumb posts made by Johnny Canucker I would weigh in as well.

 

[CanaFan]

no offence intended, but fan is short for "fanatic". fandom is inherently an irrational thing. your particular approach to fandom of trying to do something irrational in a completely rational fashion is certainly a valid form of fandom, but it is not the only one and my point in posting was that it is not a normative or exclusive form of fandom even on a message board where people use analytics.

let me put it another way. a variation on the approach to message board fandom would be leaf fandom here, which is an aggressive adversarial approach to rational fandom where they use every argument available to build up their players and their team and relentlessly denigrate other teams, and where they are relentlessly optimistic about and overvaluing of their prospects. for example, liljegren just got sent down to the ahl for his d+2 season, an event that for juolevi was considered catastrophic, but hardly registered or dampened leaf ardour for their prospect. many leaf fans will argue vigorously that liljegren was a steal and could have been a top ten or even top five pick, yet at the same time have no concerns about the guy at d+2 being unable to crack a questionable leaf d corps that is desperately in need of an inexpensive option and they still project him as a top pair prospect. you may call that irrational but i just call it rationally infused optimism. i can go have a fairly rational discussion in the leaf forum if i cared about anything leaf related. very comparable to the fairly rational discussion i can have here.

Probably cause:

1. Liljegren is D+2 while Juolevi is D+3

2. Liljegren was taken 17th while Juolevi was taken 5th

3. Toronto fans got a lot better things to focus on these days while we’ve got Pettersson and the dream of a tank season.

Probably explains it better than some innate difference in the people or culture of each fanbase.

 

[CanaFan]

you and everyone here are inherently irrationally biased as sports team fans serious enough about it to come and post about it.

so step one, own your irrational bias and realize its not an inherently bad thing.

then it's just a question of how much bias. the line you have drawn in the sand on that is more arbitrary than you acknowledge and the judgments you cast on fellow fans who draw other lines more unfair than you admit.

this is not a place to win arguments or decide who is smarter or more popular. it's a place to discuss hockey.

and on that note, i am out until the game starts.

Disagree that being a fan necessarily equates to losing the ability to judge things impartially. Using the etymology of the word is hardly a compelling argument for how people feel and view their sports team. Some people may be “fanatics”, others may want their team to find success without blindly consuming and loving everything the team does.

Certainly we may be biased in our affections toward the Canucks - for example it bothers me that we have a poor GM at the helm while it bothers me not that Ottawa and Edmonton have possibly worse ones - but that doesn’t mean we can’t be reasonably objective about what a single game performance means relative to a 3 year body of work. There’s irrational and then there’s blindly irrational. They certainly aren’t equivalent.

 

[Melvin]

I am perfectly fine with krutov and others believing that I am not a fan. I don't need to be a fan. Fans don't even collect a salary.

 

[Pavel96]

You were harping on people for being excited for a prospect after the first game. If you cannot see why that is a problem then I do not know what to tell you. Do you expect everyone to come charging in here after a few games to proclaim doom? This is a fan board. I can understand people not being happy with the progression of a prospect. But you took it too far by trying to call out people who were happy and excited with the first game.



Why am I not surprised you would go out of your way to make a comment like this?

Harping on people? Taking it too far by calling out people? I actually didn't quote anyone in particular but made a few general comments pointing out the differences in comments being made by multiple posters after one game as opposed to multiple. If you can't handle that, why even respond? And furthermore, why put on such a show having to **** out your words for what I can only assume is effect? If you are trying to keep this such a positive, civil place for fan engagement - why act like that to prove your point?

Ah in the name of being a fan, you can harp on my post and single me out - yet that's not taking it too far. But keep focusing on this, instead of the actual player himself and things that actually relate to him as a player and your views on that. I can understand why it's easier for some 'fans' to focus on this nonsense (calling people out for being negative) then the actual reality of the brutal state this franchise is in and specifically in this case how this highly drafted player is severely under preforming.