Official 2015 tank thread III: Edmonton won!! I repeat, Edmonton won!

[Jame]

You have precisely articulated my position. This is why the "development or losing, but not both" false choice is so maddening.

Is anyone making it a choice? I'm not.

 

[CaptPantalones]

Jack Eichel is a distant memory, it's now McDavid, Hanifin, Strome and Marner. Hopefully we don't play our way out of that grouping now.

We should be adding zacha to this mix

 

[Jame]

Exactly. Look at what being on a historically bad team last year did for girgensons. Kid should be ruined by now but he's not.

Look what it did for Cody Hodgson

 

[Zip15]

Is anyone making it a choice? I'm not.

To answer your questions:

1. Yes. It's often couched in a reference to Edmonton.

2. I didn't say you were.

 

[Jame]

Winning breeds confidence. It raises confidence. It takes existing confidence and adds to it.

Confidence is a driver for player development

There is no way that the current winning streak is NOT a benefit to our young core pieces. It's a positive thing.

We can still be pissed about losing out on McDavid because of an insane run of beating the Corsi odds. But we can also look at the positives.

I see no one presenting a choice. Win or McEichel? no one is presenting that choice. so that straw man can be retired.

But there is a narrative of, "****, we're not going to get McEichel, but Girgs, Myers, Risto, Ennis, Zadorov, Enroth are benefiting from the winning... more than they would from being an historically awful team again.

 

[haseoke39]

Winning breeds confidence. It raises confidence. It takes existing confidence and adds to it.

Confidence is a driver for player development

There is no way that the current winning streak is NOT a benefit to our young core pieces. It's a positive thing.

We can still be pissed about losing out on McDavid because of an insane run of beating the Corsi odds. But we can also look at the positives.

I see no one presenting a choice. Win or McEichel? no one is presenting that choice. so that straw man can be retired.

But there is a narrative of, "****, we're not going to get McEichel, but Girgs, Myers, Risto, Ennis, Zadorov, Enroth are benefiting from the winning... more than they would from being an historically awful team again.

I'm cool with that view. I just see it as a net negative, but I'm not gonna be pissy if somebody disagrees.

 

[Zip15]

Winning breeds confidence. It raises confidence. It takes existing confidence and adds to it.

Confidence is a driver for player development

There is no way that the current winning streak is NOT a benefit to our young core pieces. It's a positive thing.

We can still be pissed about losing out on McDavid because of an insane run of beating the Corsi odds. But we can also look at the positives.

I see no one presenting a choice. Win or McEichel? no one is presenting that choice. so that straw man can be retired.

But there is a narrative of, "****, we're not going to get McEichel, but Girgs, Myers, Risto, Ennis, Zadorov, Enroth are benefiting from the winning... more than they would from being an historically awful team again.

Who said I/we wanted historically awful? Regular awful (65 pts) and finishing 30th would be just fine with me, and it'd be a deserved result based on the quality of this team. A lot of great players dealt with losing and losing a lot at some point in their careers. That's just inherent in where great players are often picked. They often end up just fine.

I guess I'm just not buying that this last month of beating backups and winning games we had no business winning will have much, if any, impact on where these guys are in five years. I think they'll be where they are because they're good/great players, not because of a run of luck in December 2014 that, unfortunately, may cost them the opportunity to play with a possibly generational player.

 

[Ruckus007]

I'm happy the kids are playing well and developing. I'm thrilled in fact. That's critical.

However, I'd much rather they were playing well and hard and developing and we were still losing games and in McEichel position. Which would be exactly what would be happening if not for Enroth's hot streak.

I don't think the young players' level of play or development would be any different if they were playing the same way and yet losing the games they should be losing instead of eking out improbable wins.

I don't think it's critical to their development to get a taste of success right now. These guys have all tasted winning at every level of hockey they've played it. They know what it's like to win and I don't think any of them lack confidence in their own abilities.

If the winning was being driven by players who won't be on this team in two years then I could understand this point but it's not and I don't think it's fair to try to denigrate this streak by saying it's just Enroth's current play.

And, on that point, he's 26 and was generally playing well while losing at the beginning of the year. It's entirely possible that we're seeing another piece get filled with him and if he can maintain a .920ish SV% through 50-60 games at the end of the season, I think they should seriously consider trying to retain him.

 

[Zip15]

If the winning was being driven by players who won't be on this team in two years then I could understand this point but it's not and I don't think it's fair to try to denigrate this streak by saying it's just Enroth's current play.

Enroth might not be here four months from now. That's not an unreasonable belief based on the fact that he's an impending UFA taken in conjunction with Murray's stated preference for bigger netminders and his targeting of Neuvirth--who has performed well (.926) since being acquired.

And Enroth isn't the only reason, but he's the primary reason for the streak, taken as a whole. An unsustainable shooting percentage (over 10% during this streak) is also a culprit. Further, we all recognize that Ennis is playing better, that Girgensons looks great, and Zads/Risto haven't looked out of place on an NHL second pairing. But we should still be losing these games, unless you believe we've unlocked a secret formula that no other bad possession team has ever thought of or executed (sit back, try to limit chances, and counter).

And, on that point, he's 26 and was generally playing well while losing at the beginning of the year. It's entirely possible that we're seeing another piece get filled with him and if he can maintain a .920ish SV% through 50-60 games at the end of the season, I think they should seriously consider trying to retain him.

Come on. He had a few nice starts in losses (at LA, vs FLA spring to mind), but he was getting lit up with some frequency. Over his first 10 starts, he surrendered 4 or more goals on five occasions. Since the start of the streak, he's given up 4 or more just once in 10 games. And on the three occasions, he gave up 3 goals, we're 3-0-0--the opposing goaltenders in those games: Tokarski, Ramo, and Montoya.

He wasn't the same guy early in the season.

 

[Jame]

Who said I/we wanted historically awful? Regular awful (65 pts) and finishing 30th would be just fine with me, and it'd be a deserved result based on the quality of this team. A lot of great players dealt with losing and losing a lot at some point in their careers. That's just inherent in where great players are often picked. They often end up just fine.

Well, being regular awful just kind of puts you in the vicinity of 30th... like we are today. Edmonton is 1-6-3 in their last 10. How did you expect to compete for 30th, without being "historically" awful? 65 points?

Edmonton is on pace for 50
Carolina is on pace for 53

I guess I'm just not buying that this last month of beating backups and winning games we had no business winning will have much, if any, impact on where these guys are in five years. I think they'll be where they are because they're good/great players, not because of a run of luck in December 2014 that, unfortunately, may cost them the opportunity to play with a possibly generational player.

People usually only recognize it in reverse... like how everyone could see there was no benefit to exposing our young talent to the RonRol tire fire...

 

[haseoke39]

I don't think 65 points gets you last place this year. People gonna tank harder.

 

[Jame]

Careful, Jame. You're not allowed to talk about the benefits of winning in the tank thread. They get all pissy and delete your posts. Personal experience. Just sayin'

Im an OG in the tank mafia.

 

[Irving Zisman]

I'm cool with that view. I just see it as a net negative, but I'm not gonna be pissy if somebody disagrees.

It probably is in actuality, a net negative. But a very small one, and something that isn't going to hold the team back from rebuilding into a serious contender

 

[haseoke39]

It probably is in actuality, a net negative. But a very small one, and something that isn't going to hold the team back from rebuilding into a serious contender

We can agree to disagree on the size of the negative, although I agree this team should be in the conversation in a couple years regardless.

 

[joshjull]

Enroth might not be here four months from now. That's not an unreasonable belief based on the fact that he's an impending UFA taken in conjunction with Murray's stated preference for bigger netminders and his targeting of Neuvirth--who has performed well (.926) since being acquired.

And Enroth isn't the only reason, but he's the primary reason for the streak, taken as a whole. An unsustainable shooting percentage (over 10% during this streak) is also a culprit. Further, we all recognize that Ennis is playing better, that Girgensons looks great, and Zads/Risto haven't looked out of place on an NHL second pairing. But we should still be losing these games, unless you believe we've unlocked a secret formula that no other bad possession team has ever thought of or executed (sit back, try to limit chances, and counter).



Come on. He had a few nice starts in losses (at LA, vs FLA spring to mind), but he was getting lit up with some frequency. Over his first 10 starts, he surrendered 4 or more goals on five occasions. Since the start of the streak, he's given up 4 or more just once in 10 games. And on the three occasions, he gave up 3 goals, we're 3-0-0--the opposing goaltenders in those games: Tokarski, Ramo, and Montoya.

He wasn't the same guy early in the season.

We're not the same team either. Particularly in our end. They've done a good job cleaning up their play in our zone and have cut way down on the amount of gimme goals they are surrendering. By that I mean the type of goals we surrendered in our last game. Where the goalie doesn't have a prayer to make the save. Enroth's numbers for that game were in line with some of his earlier performances.

We're obviously still get out possessed but we are doing a much better job structurally in our end and at making the other team have to work for their scoring chances/goals. Earlier in the year we were handing over goals on a platter. Now we are giving our goalies a fighting chance to make the saves.

 

[Heraldic]

So there came the final blow to our tank mission.

MacT canned Eakinsi and made himself the head coach.

This is one person being a tank commander on two, ultimate tiers (GM and head coach), which is almost a guaranteed McEichel.

 

[joshjull]

So there came the final blow to our tank mission.

MacT canned Eakinsin and made himself the head coach.

This is one person being a tank commander on two, ultimate tiers (GM and head coach), which is almost a guaranteed McEichel.

MacT taking over as actually a positive for us. He's a decent and experienced NHL coach and since he's the GM the players have no where to hide.

 

[TehDoak]

Interesting to see. Let's see what happens. If they hire Rolston to coach we can go ahead and lock this thread up, everything will be over.

 

[couture23]

MacT taking over as actually a positive for us. He's a decent and experienced NHL coach and since he's the GM the players have no where to hide.

Exactly what I was thinking. I think this will turn into a positive.

MacT controls everything now, I think the players will tighten up.

 

[Jame]

We can agree to disagree on the size of the negative, although I agree this team should be in the conversation in a couple years regardless.

so, the negative is so big that that they will be in the conversation regardless.

got it

 

[haseoke39]

so, the negative is so big that that they will be in the conversation regardless.

got it

Yes, you do. Not sure what's actually problematic about that statement.

 

[Zip15]

Well, being regular awful just kind of puts you in the vicinity of 30th... like we are today. Edmonton is 1-6-3 in their last 10. How did you expect to compete for 30th, without being "historically" awful? 65 points?

Edmonton is on pace for 50
Carolina is on pace for 53



People usually only recognize it in reverse... like how everyone could see there was no benefit to exposing our young talent to the RonRol tire fire...

Edmonton isn't too far off last year's pace at this time. They only had 22 pts (3 more than now) through their first 30 last year. They finished with 67. People around here will never admit it, but this year's version of the Oilers is better than last year's. I could see a high-60's finish.

There were other examples of awful starts and decent finishes last year. For example, the Isles had 21 points through 30 games, but finished with 79. I think Carolina can perform similarly, and will once J-Staal gets back.

 

[Jame]

Edmonton isn't too far off last year's pace at this time. They only had 22 pts (3 more than now) through their first 30 last year. They finished with 67. People around here will never admit it, but this year's version of the Oilers is better than last year's. I could see a high-60's finish.

There were other examples of awful starts and decent finishes last year. For example, the Isles had 21 points through 30 games, but finished with 79. I think Carolina can perform similarly, and will once J-Staal gets back.

Maybe you could point to some barely decent starts, awful finishes... and we can all relax and believe the tank is perfectly fine.

 

[sabregoon]

Exactly what I was thinking. I think this will turn into a positive.

MacT controls everything now, I think the players will tighten up.

Have to think that MacT's job is in trouble if this doesn't turn around. So hopefully they start putting wins together.

 

[Chainshot]

I suppose the question of if Carolina or Edmonton continue to wallow or if they hit a small run and draw the Sabres close again.