Off-Season Thread II - Who cares.......

[J15]

Question for those that want a rebuild.

Are you prepared for a team that finishes last or near last for the better part of a decade?
That's about how long you have to be bad to fully rebuild.

What's the alternative? Unless you think there's a realistic way to turn this team into a contender over that time period is being near the bottom of the league that much worse than being in the middle and getting crushed in the playoffs every year?

More importantly, after 5 more years of mediocrity when we finally realize we have to rebuild we're going to wish we started now rather than waste an entire decade treading water and watching the peaks of a lot of our core players go by.

Holland isn't a magician, this team needs to rebuild eventually. It's a matter of when not if. Before the argument was to keep pushing while we still had good years in Z and Dats but those ships have sailed. If it's going to happen anyway (which it will) I'd rather it be now than after 5 years of middle of the pack hockey.

 

[izlez]

Who then is our team's Thornton, Burns, Pavelski, Couture?

Over the hill star that constantly loses early in the playoffs and was stripped of his captaincy?
Offensive defenseman that could never take his team far in the playoffs and averaged about 40 points per game over the past several seasons?
...ok, Pavelski doesn't have a direct comparable on our team, call him Stamkos
Young player entering his prime but is looking like he may never break out into a PPG player and will just settle in around 50-60 points...and could never take his team far in the playoffs?


Yeah, San Jose last year sounds nothing like us this year. We have no chance. The only option is tanking

Edit: Now I see you just made a post about not wanting to tank. Point still stands, we are pretty similar to what San Jose was and it's silly to act like it's hopeless

 

[J15]

Over the hill star that constantly loses early in the playoffs and was stripped of his captaincy?
Offensive defenseman that could never take his team far in the playoffs and averaged about 40 points per game over the past several seasons?
...ok, Pavelski doesn't have a direct comparable on our team, call him Stamkos
Young player entering his prime but is looking like he may never break out into a PPG player and will just settle in around 50-60 points...and could never take his team far in the playoffs?


Yeah, San Jose last year sounds nothing like us this year. We have no chance. The only option is tanking

Yeah who needs that

 

[Reddwit]

I'm tempering my expectations regarding Stamkos.

The fact that Holland is talking to every other Free Agent out there makes me think that's he's not overly optimistic in the teams chances of landing Stamkos.

It will be massive if he does choose the Wings but with Buffalo offering the most money, Tampa offering a far lower tax rate and Toronto being his home, it seems like the Wings are a long shot.

He just did an interview where he said he's talking to a ton of free agents because you never know where guys end up at the end of the day. Stamkos could've straight up told him "if not Tampa, then I'll sign with you" and yet there is still no guarantee they get him. Its better to express interest in as many guys as possible now so your interest appears genuine than to approach them after the fact when its obvious they're your plan B (or C or D...)

 

[Retire91]

Over the hill star that constantly loses early in the playoffs and was stripped of his captaincy?
Offensive defenseman that could never take his team far in the playoffs and averaged about 40 points per game over the past several seasons?
...ok, Pavelski doesn't have a direct comparable on our team, call him Stamkos
Young player entering his prime but is looking like he may never break out into a PPG player and will just settle in around 50-60 points...and could never take his team far in the playoffs?


Yeah, San Jose last year sounds nothing like us this year. We have no chance. The only option is tanking

Ok so you pointed out San Jose as an example of a team that the red wings could emulate to get deep into the playoffs, then bashed all the players that got them there. So what was it exactly I was to take away from this in the form of not needing high draft picks to build a contender?

 

[Frk It]

What's the alternative? Unless you think there's a realistic way to turn this team into a contender over that time period is being near the bottom of the league that much worse than being in the middle and getting crushed in the playoffs every year?

More importantly, after 5 more years of mediocrity when we finally realize we have to rebuild we're going to wish we started now rather than waste an entire decade treading water and watching the peaks of a lot of out core players go by.

Holland isn't a magician, this team needs to rebuild eventually. It's a matter of when not if. Before the argument was to keep pushing while we still had good years in Z and Dats but those ships have sailed. If it's going to happen anyway (which it will) I'd rather it be now than after 5 years of middle of the pack hockey.

No GM in the league is going to tear down a team that has a 25 year playoff streak, 1 year before they move into a new arena. Not one.

I get that from strictly a roster construction standpoint that it might be more advantageous to gut the team and acquire some top 5 picks.

But you can't disregard the business side of things. Being a playoff team typically generates extra revenue, and many other teams would love to be able to say they are in that situation every year.

That's probably going to have to be pried from Holland's hands before he embraces shaking the team up in a meaningful way to rebuild aggressively.

 

[Retire91]

No GM in the league is going to tear down a team that has a 25 year playoff streak, 1 year before they move into a new arena. Not one.

I get that from strictly a roster construction standpoint that it might be more advantageous to gut the team and acquire some top 5 picks.

But you can't disregard the business side of things. Being a playoff team typically generates extra revenue, and many other teams would love to be able to say they are in that situation every year.

That's probably going to have to be pried from Holland's hands before he embraces shaking the team up in a meaningful way to rebuild aggressively.

That's the side of me that gets the 'going for it' mentality. Strictly from a business standpoint. The 2 or 3 games of revenue plus the odd accidental second round advancement that is possible might just be all the Illichs are after. I think 20 years ago Illich would have rebuilt no matter what was on the horizon. The current Illich might just be milking playoff revenue.

Signing Stamkos and landing some help on D might secure some serious playoff revenue for a new arena but IMO lessons the chances of becoming an actual contender with any regularity.

 

[Tatar]

Question for those that want a rebuild.

Are you prepared for a team that finishes last or near last for the better part of a decade?
That's about how long you have to be bad to fully rebuild.

Yes. The alternative is to remain treading water in this illusion that anything can happen even if you just make the playoffs.

We're not a contender now.

Would getting Stamkos help? Of course! Though that also won't make us Cup contenders until we fix our back-end. Nor would it fix the giant hole that Kronwall and Zetterberg are going to leave in the next couple of years.

I have a bad feeling if we miss on stamkos, holland will sign a B or C player to a S.Weiss like contract.

If we get stamkos for the right price and can make some trades for real defensive help then hell yeah make a push for the Cup.

If we miss out, rebuild the team.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

This offseason is not shaping up like anything is going to change.

Stamkos will sign with another team and then Holland will load up on B level talent and try to keep this sinking ship afloat for another season, but i don't think it's gonna be enough to lose in the first round again. Wings probably miss the playoffs and end up drafting 10-12th overall. Gonna be brutal.

 

[Claypool]

This offseason is not shaping up like anything is going to change.

Stamkos will sign with another team and then Holland will load up on B level talent and try to keep this sinking ship afloat for another season, but i don't think it's gonna be enough to lose in the first round again. Wings probably miss the playoffs and end up drafting 10-12th overall. Gonna be brutal.

Can you at least wait until after the free agents have signed before being negative?

 

[Reddwit]

Yes. The alternative is to remain treading water in this illusion that anything can happen even if you just make the playoffs.

We're not a contender now.

Would getting Stamkos help? Of course! Though that also won't make us Cup contenders until we fix our back-end. Nor would it fix the giant hole that Kronwall and Zetterberg are going to leave in the next couple of years.

I have a bad feeling if we miss on stamkos, holland will sign a B or C player to a S.Weiss like contract.

If we get stamkos for the right price and can make some trades for real defensive help then hell yeah make a push for the Cup.

If we miss out, rebuild the team.

What? The same two players that 90% of this board *****es about? Two broken down players that, if we signed Stamkos, would be at best, the 3rd best options at their position by the time their deals are up?

Zetterberg and Kronwall leaving are the least of our concerns. Both were barely above average this past season.

 

[BinCookin]

Can you at least wait until after the free agents have signed before being negative?

Dont worry about him Claypool, he is a walking poster board for depression. (all negative all the time forever)

you guys know the last team that took a playoff team (just like ours) and just burnt it to the ground on a rebuilding idea?....

Philadelphia.

I am not sure I want to follow their lead.

 

[last_sd]

Price of D is crazy high this year.
EDM just traded Hall for Larsson straight up.

 

[chances14]

Price of D is crazy high this year.
EDM just traded Hall for Larsson straight up.

pretty terrible trade for the oilers on the surface

guess we'll see how it plays out

 

[FlashyG]

Yes. The alternative is to remain treading water in this illusion that anything can happen even if you just make the playoffs.

We're not a contender now.

Would getting Stamkos help? Of course! Though that also won't make us Cup contenders until we fix our back-end. Nor would it fix the giant hole that Kronwall and Zetterberg are going to leave in the next couple of years.

I have a bad feeling if we miss on stamkos, holland will sign a B or C player to a S.Weiss like contract.

If we get stamkos for the right price and can make some trades for real defensive help then hell yeah make a push for the Cup.

If we miss out, rebuild the team.

OK, so hypothetically speaking we're committed to a full rebuild. Who are we selling off and what do you expect to get for them? How quickly do you think we can trade them off?

Can we turn things around before Larkin, Dekeyser and Mrazek become UFA's? if not we're likely losing them too.

How deep is next years draft? is there someone available that's worth tanking for?

There are so many variables to tearing down and rebuilding a team that its as much of a gamble as what we're currently doing.

 

[obey86]

Yes. The alternative is to remain treading water in this illusion that anything can happen even if you just make the playoffs.

We're not a contender now.

Would getting Stamkos help? Of course! Though that also won't make us Cup contenders until we fix our back-end. Nor would it fix the giant hole that Kronwall and Zetterberg are going to leave in the next couple of years.

I have a bad feeling if we miss on stamkos, holland will sign a B or C player to a S.Weiss like contract.

If we get stamkos for the right price and can make some trades for real defensive help then hell yeah make a push for the Cup.

If we miss out, rebuild the team.

The hole on the team resulting from Zetterberg and Kronwall is already there. They are poor players at this point in their careers.

In fact, Wings would be better off at this point if they both retired.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Hall for Adam Larsson. What the ****?

 

[Vladdy84]

Brendan Smith for McDavid!!!

 

[last_sd]

From that trade.
1. Price of D was/is super high.
2. Price could drop a little now that EDM is probably out of trade market for D. EDM had the most ammo in terms of young forward talent to trade.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

But yeah they could totally get Fowler or Shattenkirk for Tatar and a 2nd.

 

[Retire91]

There doesn't need to be a full blow it up rebuild. I mean I am fine with that actually but not advocating it. Just stop pretending like this team has a foundation to patch into the playoffs. Patching this team for 6-7 seasons now has resulted in the worst Redwings team I have ever seen on the ice. Need to stop making moves like we can just go for it and start protecting the resources that build a young team, like giving young players priority ice time over older free agent signings and protecting your draft positions. I think the "going for it" mentality is what erks people the most. I don't know how many people on here are actually saying full on blow it up.

If he signs Stamkos and brings in a true #1 D then fine I'll go for the ride. I am also enough of a realist to know even if one of those things happens both are not going to happen. So why not start to prioritize building a youthful core and go from there?


Holy cow Hall for Larson, well at least we know now a winger will get D but dang. I think Larson is underrated but also, dang.

 

[drwings40]

Holly sh** What a steal by Shero.

 

[Pavels Dog]

But yeah they could totally get Fowler or Shattenkirk for Tatar and a 2nd.

Big difference is Larsson is signed for a long time on a very cheap deal. Fowler only has 2 years left before getting a big raise, Shattenkirk 1 year before a massive raise. That lowers their value a lot.

edit: whoa, Subban for Weber. That is a massive trade. What is Montreal doing?

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Larsson is a good player, but geez. This really shows you how stark the difference in value between a winger and a defenseman can be.

 

[drwings40]

Shea Weber for Subban