News Article: O/T: NHL league-wide...HDA releases statement: Done with NHL etc.

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

You certainly did some clarifying. Well done.

You laid out a thinly veiled racist manifesto of the attitudes they are leaving behind.

My black & minority friends are laughing at your response right now. Seriously dude, no racism here, take that crap elsewhere.

Also, guess you conveniently missed this:

"I say all of this as: 1. A Minority 2. Non-Anglo-Saxon/white 3. My family are legal immigrant minorities from the 1960's + a few are white. 4. I've experienced racism myself, numerous times personally & professionally....So No Racial/Cultural Bias one way or the other."

 

[lomekian]

Anyone of your heritage in the NHL? Would that player self describe himself as "brown" in a racial context?

Next they'll start referring to Asian players as yellow.....

Depends if they are being as flippant as me.

There is a serious point behind my joke however, which is about the terms people use and how they are loaded. I am undeniably brown in skin-tone. I refuse to be influenced by the negative connotations that have been applied to that description.

Being mixed, I can't call myself 'black', and I resent people who try to force that term on me, and don't accept it any more than I would being called white. I don't expect anyone else to feel the same way as me, but equally I want people to feel free to do so without some nonsense negative connotations hanging over a term which is undeniably the most accurate in simple terms.

Sometimes my friends and I have used the term in each others company, although not in any particular seriousness, and I'm sure I'm not the only brown person with brown friends who has done the same. Simply put, words that have no inherent demerit in their meaning, should be liberated from those who have tried to impose their own negativity upon them. Its not like the n-word, which has always had a specificity and an attitude attached to it.

Also, re asian people, they cannot accurately be described as yellow, so it is slightly different.

I'm not saying you are wrong to question the wisdom of the choice of word in this context, but rather making a wider point.

 

[jkutswings]

Remember when diversity was supporting those with different backgrounds or opinions instead of tearing them down? Pepperidge Farm remembers.

 

[lomekian]

So not liking Rap/Hip-Hop/R&B/Saggy Pants with Unsolicited Ass-Crack & hairy ass is now considered "Dangerous racial garbage"= disagree with you & it's automatically "racist/offensive"... that isn't logical. Also there are White/Latino etc. other colors/races/ethnicities that are Rap/Hip-hop/R&B artists, & I don't like any of them either.

Also I never said "the way they walk", "the way they dress" etc....you're confusing me with somebody else.

You really need to stop watching 'The View', CNN, MSNBC, really all MSM. You're being programmed. Also my black & minority friends are laughing even harder at you now, thanks, we needed a good laugh tonight.

Firstly, I believe the sincerity of the point you are trying to make. However you have done so clumsily, particularly with reference to the Chris Rock skit. Can black people be as racist as anyone else? Of course! But we're not really talking about racism as the central point. The conversation is about the legacy of institutionalised discrimination still having a major impact in both conscious and unconscious thought, leading to a perpetration of the continued impact of a power imbalance and the abuse of that power.

Secondly, Rap/Hip-Hop etc comes in many forms, and the over-produced, dick-waving rubbish that tops the charts and playlists is a poor representation. If done well it should be challenging, melodic in its vocal performancce and entirely compatible with different instruments and beat patterns. A shame you haven't found any you like, but then I've never got on with death metal, and that seems to sell!

Thirdly, don't quote CNN, MSNBC or any other media you don't like at those who disagree, and accuse them of being programmed. It insults those who disagree with you and makes you look like a reactionary, ill-informed idiot. I'm confident that like myself, most of those disagreeing with you are perfectly capable of reaching conclusions without mediocre news outlets. Its become one of the clarion calls of those fearful of social evolution of one form or another to blame the 'liberal media', and so often citing things that are largely an irrelevance in opinion forming. The media is very good at reinforcing opinions and prejudices but very seldom shapes them.

I'm not very keen on the opinions on the right of the Republican party, but I'm not going to insult those opinions by attributing them as being inculcated by the mental midgets on Fox News.

 

[lomekian]

Remember when diversity was supporting those with different backgrounds or opinions instead of tearing them down? Pepperidge Farm remembers.

We all need to remember what dialogue means, and perhaps more importantly that we can learn through dialogue with those we disagree with. It confuses me that so many people are so scared of genuinely engaging with those who disagree with them. Firstly, those who disagree with you may know something you don't, and secondly, if you genuinely converse, you can also win people over. If we are not respectful to others, how can we demand it return? Also, if there is one thing the world has shown us of late, its that polarisation without seeking common ground only benefits those who profit from division, and ultimately care more about their own ambitions than either side of the argument.

Accordingly hopefully the NHL & HDA can re-connect and find enough commonality of purpose to salvage this situation (or alternatively the NHL partners with another orgnaisation with similar goals)

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

Firstly, I believe the sincerity of the point you are trying to make. However you have done so clumsily, particularly with reference to the Chris Rock skit. Can black people be as racist as anyone else? Of course! But we're not really talking about racism as the central point. The conversation is about the legacy of institutionalised discrimination still having a major impact in both conscious and unconscious thought, leading to a perpetration of the continued impact of a power imbalance and the abuse of that power.

Secondly, Rap/Hip-Hop etc comes in many forms, and the over-produced, dick-waving rubbish that tops the charts and playlists is a poor representation. If done well it should be challenging, melodic in its vocal performancce and entirely compatible with different instruments and beat patterns. A shame you haven't found any you like, but then I've never got on with death metal, and that seems to sell!

Thirdly, don't quote CNN, MSNBC or any other media you don't like at those who disagree, and accuse them of being programmed. It insults those who disagree with you and makes you look like a reactionary, ill-informed idiot. I'm confident that like myself, most of those disagreeing with you are perfectly capable of reaching conclusions without mediocre news outlets. Its become one of the clarion calls of those fearful of social evolution of one form or another to blame the 'liberal media', and so often citing things that are largely an irrelevance in opinion forming. The media is very good at reinforcing opinions and prejudices but very seldom shapes them.

I'm not very keen on the opinions on the right of the Republican party, but I'm not going to insult those opinions by attributing them as being inculcated by the mental midgets on Fox News.

Eloquently put @lomekian & sorry to hear you've also experienced racism (just as I have) in your lifetime.

1st pt., I was referring to racism vs. cultural differences (which have nothing to do with skin color)...too often someone who is labeled/accused/smeared a "racist" isn't...they just don't wanna hear Rap & see saggy pants street thugs (of ALL COLORS) etc.

2nd pt. I'm not into heavy metal/death metal either, nor country, nor folk, nor jazz, nor eclectic jazz, nor Rap/Hip-hop/R&B. Not liking the latter 3 DOES NOT make someone a racist like @Bench tried to insinuate in a prior post. There's no logic in his statement/false accusation. That would be like me accusing someone who didn't like classic rock 'n roll of being a racist...which would be a very stupid accusation to make. Now, I did buy Snoop's 1st CD (Doggpound) in '93/'94 when it 1st came out (just to hear what the hype was all about) & it was actually better than I thought it would be, but I'm still not a fan of those genres.

3rd pt. Agree to disagree. Counterpoint: If I'd said Hannity, Drudge Report, Alex Jones, Ben Shapiro & countless other independent (right-wing or even libertarian) news outlets, would you still be saying the same thing?
Re: "The media is very good at reinforcing opinions and prejudices but very seldom shapes them."...the MSM is a propaganda machine, we know which way they sway.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

The people running the NHL don't care. The only reason they even bothered to do anything at all was so they could cover their ***** and say "Hey look we care about equality too". That's all they needed to do to protect their bottom line. The NHL knows hockey fans will keep tuning in and they know that they won't financially benefit from supporting a group of people that don't care about hockey. Is it morally reprehensible? Absolutely. Unfortunately the NHL won't actually start caring until it starts to effect their revenue.

 

[Gniwder]

Depends if they are being as flippant as me.

There is a serious point behind my joke however, which is about the terms people use and how they are loaded. I am undeniably brown in skin-tone. I refuse to be influenced by the negative connotations that have been applied to that description.

Being mixed, I can't call myself 'black', and I resent people who try to force that term on me, and don't accept it any more than I would being called white. I don't expect anyone else to feel the same way as me, but equally I want people to feel free to do so without some nonsense negative connotations hanging over a term which is undeniably the most accurate in simple terms.

Sometimes my friends and I have used the term in each others company, although not in any particular seriousness, and I'm sure I'm not the only brown person with brown friends who has done the same. Simply put, words that have no inherent demerit in their meaning, should be liberated from those who have tried to impose their own negativity upon them. Its not like the n-word, which has always had a specificity and an attitude attached to it.

Also, re asian people, they cannot accurately be described as yellow, so it is slightly different.

I'm not saying you are wrong to question the wisdom of the choice of word in this context, but rather making a wider point.

Yes, we are discussing, not arguing like the other guy, lol. Brown is used in various contexts, Mexican, Arabs, Indians (the real ones), etc. I was just wondering what you're angle was. In many cases, it's used in a negative connotation quite frequently, and IMO it is a poor choice of words for an organization determined to address racial inequality in hockey.

I think getting characterized as black for being partially black is a carryover from the racists past in this country. I mean, Tiger Woods is as much Asian as he is black and Eddie Van Halen (RIP) was as much Asian as he was white.

If I was mixed race, I think I'd select multiple boxes on forms. As an engineer, I like to be technically correct. When people ask me where I'm from originally, I answer I WAS Japanese. I have my US citizenship now.

 

[MBH]

Not sure I enjoy the sentiment of your first two lines here, as they sound a bit dog-whistle like. Your third line is a very valid question. The fourth is exactly the crux of the issue.

Not sure I enjoy the sentiment of your first two lines here, as they sound a bit dog-whistle like. Your third line is a very valid question. The fourth is exactly the crux of the issue.

It's more cynical, based on observation, than racism. There are people who have professional vested interest in exploiting racism and concern about it. There's an entire consultant industry dedicated to some of training, webinars, etc.
Company has incident at work. Has no idea what to do. So they call consultant. Run everyone through training. Go on with things.

Does it help? Who knows?

Hockey's got some serious diversity issues.
Always has.

If people talked about blacks the way the hockey world talked about Swedes and Russians in the 80s, 90s and early 00s - holy shit...
Did we need a Euro hockey diversity alliance to stand up for Euros in hockey? No. They lived with prejudice and discrimination and proved everyone wrong.

That's not to suggest this sort of prejudice is worse than racism, faced by blacks in the hockey world. But I can only imagine the shit some of the European imports face in the CHL, with idiotic high school jocks and the prevailing attitudes about Europeans.

So it's interesting what we choose to care about.

 

[Gniwder]

It's more cynical, based on observation, than racism. There are people who have professional vested interest in exploiting racism and concern about it. There's an entire consultant industry dedicated to some of training, webinars, etc.
Company has incident at work. Has no idea what to do. So they call consultant. Run everyone through training. Go on with things.

Does it help? Who knows?

Hockey's got some serious diversity issues.
Always has.

If people talked about blacks the way the hockey world talked about Swedes and Russians in the 80s, 90s and early 00s - holy shit...
Did we need a Euro hockey diversity alliance to stand up for Euros in hockey? No. They lived with prejudice and discrimination and proved everyone wrong.

That's not to suggest this sort of prejudice is worse than racism, faced by blacks in the hockey world. But I can only imagine the shit some of the European imports face in the CHL, with idiotic high school jocks and the prevailing attitudes about Europeans.

So it's interesting what we choose to care about.

Has a Euro player ever had stuff thrown on the ice because he's Euro?

I think black players have it a little tougher.....
Banana flung at Flyers' Simmonds in Ontario

and Euros always had the option to go home, whereas black players were actually playing at home.

 

[MBH]

I'm not a judgemental person, but you might be a piece of shit. You can tell I'm not judgmental, because I just said so.

.

Right there is one of the two places it goes off the rails.

The lefties just love to call you a piece of shit/racist/homophobe.

On the right, someone questions your manhood and calls you a commie pinko homosnowflake.

 

[MBH]

Has a Euro player ever had stuff thrown on the ice because he's Euro?

I think black players have it a little tougher.....
Banana flung at Flyers' Simmonds in Ontario

and Euros always had the option to go home, whereas black players were actually playing at home.

Is throwing a banana on the ice worse than questioning one's character based on their birthplace? I don't know. They are both shitty.
Besides - throwing a banana on the ice would never be deemed acceptable in north America. Questioning the toughness based on what country you were born in? An entire segment of the hockey fan world reveled in it.

Honestly, I've got my suspicion about the hockey world and the way coaches/old-boy-network and the league treats brown-skinned players. But it's not so overt that fans just buy into it and espouse the bullshit like it's common knowledge.

You see hints of it, though, like in other sports...
Where white guys get by on character and grit and smarts, and brown guys are so athletic, if only they'd apply themselves or had the brains for it ... blah blah blah

 

[lilidk]

Rasism is real thing. It's ok talk about it , but when it is on the news 24/7it makes people angry. Angry people got easily monipulating , election is coming.

 

[Gniwder]

Is throwing a banana on the ice worse than questioning one's character based on their birthplace? I don't know. They are both shitty.
Besides - throwing a banana on the ice would never be deemed acceptable in north America. Questioning the toughness based on what country you were born in? An entire segment of the hockey fan world reveled in it.

Honestly, I've got my suspicion about the hockey world and the way coaches/old-boy-network and the league treats brown-skinned players. But it's not so overt that fans just buy into it and espouse the bullshit like it's common knowledge.

You see hints of it, though, like in other sports...
Where white guys get by on character and grit and smarts, and brown guys are so athletic, if only they'd apply themselves or had the brains for it ... blah blah blah

Here's the major difference, those Euro players.... managers at every level brought in enforcers to protect them. Guys like Kurri, Kovalev, Feds, D & Z never had to fight for themselves. (Except for Datsuk fighting Perry which was epic) Meanwhile black players were left to fend for themselves. You typically don't see superstars like Iginla or Simmonds having to fight... except when they're black.

Being both an immigrant and a minority, I'll take xenophobia over racism any day of the week.

My own personal worst experience was when I was in Thompson and couldn't get served in restaurants because they thought I was First Nation. Imagine going on 3 week work trip and having to eat at the Chinese restaurant by the bridge every day. I had to have a white person escort me if I wanted to eat anywhere else. Bouncer tried to kick me out of the nudie bar because I wasn't buying beer and I had to explain to him that the waitress wasn't serving me. He was a decent kid, went and grabbed a waitress right away.

So yeah, racism is way worse, and I know how First Nation people get treated.

 

[MBH]

Here's the major difference, those Euro players.... managers at every level brought in enforcers to protect them. Guys like Kurri, Kovalev, Feds, D & Z never had to fight for themselves. (Except for Datsuk fighting Perry which was epic) Meanwhile black players were left to fend for themselves. You typically don't see superstars like Iginla or Simmonds having to fight... except when they're black.

Being both an immigrant and a minority, I'll take xenophobia over racism any day of the week.

My own personal worst experience was when I was in Thompson and couldn't get served in restaurants because they thought I was First Nation. Imagine going on 3 week work trip and having to eat at the Chinese restaurant by the bridge every day. I had to have a white person escort me if I wanted to eat anywhere else. Bouncer tried to kick me out of the nudie bar because I wasn't buying beer and I had to explain to him that the waitress wasn't serving me. He was a decent kid, went and grabbed a waitress right away.

So yeah, racism is way worse, and I know how First Nation people get treated.

I'm talking about hockey.
When people question your character or ability... based on birthplace or skin color, what's the difference?

 

[Gniwder]

I'm talking about hockey.
When people question your character or ability... based on birthplace or skin color, what's the difference?

Euros were questioned on their toughness, they were given the opportunity to play and even given protection. Blacks had to literally fight for it. I'd say they had a tougher road, and they still do. Note how hockey IQ still comes into question with every black player. Soetimes they;re not given an opportunity at all.

Same crap as my nudey bar story, the bouncer gave me an opportunity to prove I can pay for my beer and sling dollar bills around, whereas the waitress didn't until the bouncer forced her.

 

[lomekian]

Eloquently put @lomekian & sorry to hear you've also experienced racism (just as I have) in your lifetime.

1st pt., I was referring to racism vs. cultural differences (which have nothing to do with skin color)...too often someone who is labeled/accused/smeared a "racist" isn't...they just don't wanna hear Rap & see saggy pants street thugs (of ALL COLORS) etc.

2nd pt. I'm not into heavy metal/death metal either, nor country, nor folk, nor jazz, nor eclectic jazz, nor Rap/Hip-hop/R&B. Not liking the latter 3 DOES NOT make someone a racist like @Bench tried to insinuate in a prior post. There's no logic in his statement/false accusation. That would be like me accusing someone who didn't like classic rock 'n roll of being a racist...which would be a very stupid accusation to make. Now, I did buy Snoop's 1st CD (Doggpound) in '93/'94 when it 1st came out (just to hear what the hype was all about) & it was actually better than I thought it would be, but I'm still not a fan of those genres.

3rd pt. Agree to disagree. Counterpoint: If I'd said Hannity, Drudge Report, Alex Jones, Ben Shapiro & countless other independent (right-wing or even libertarian) news outlets, would you still be saying the same thing?
Re: "The media is very good at reinforcing opinions and prejudices but very seldom shapes them."...the MSM is a propaganda machine, we know which way they sway.

1. I know - but my point is that not all who dress like street thugs are that
2. Didn't think you were into death metal, just making an equivalence.
3. the same applies. If you watch those people, you are either engaging in idealogical tourism or are doing so because they echo your beliefs. No-one watches MSM or Hannity and has a sudden revelation and massive shift in ideology. News media often echoes what their target audience want to hear, whether online, in print or on screen.

 

[lomekian]

Yes, we are discussing, not arguing like the other guy, lol. Brown is used in various contexts, Mexican, Arabs, Indians (the real ones), etc. I was just wondering what you're angle was. In many cases, it's used in a negative connotation quite frequently, and IMO it is a poor choice of words for an organization determined to address racial inequality in hockey.

I think getting characterized as black for being partially black is a carryover from the racists past in this country. I mean, Tiger Woods is as much Asian as he is black and Eddie Van Halen (RIP) was as much Asian as he was white.

If I was mixed race, I think I'd select multiple boxes on forms. As an engineer, I like to be technically correct. When people ask me where I'm from originally, I answer I WAS Japanese. I have my US citizenship now.

Before they started getting specific with their boxes over here, as a matter of principal I used to tick every single one that I had any bloodlines for. Now I don't have to most of the time ;-)

 

[lomekian]

It's more cynical, based on observation, than racism. There are people who have professional vested interest in exploiting racism and concern about it. There's an entire consultant industry dedicated to some of training, webinars, etc.
Company has incident at work. Has no idea what to do. So they call consultant. Run everyone through training. Go on with things.

Does it help? Who knows?

Hockey's got some serious diversity issues.
Always has.

If people talked about blacks the way the hockey world talked about Swedes and Russians in the 80s, 90s and early 00s - holy shit...
Did we need a Euro hockey diversity alliance to stand up for Euros in hockey? No. They lived with prejudice and discrimination and proved everyone wrong.

That's not to suggest this sort of prejudice is worse than racism, faced by blacks in the hockey world. But I can only imagine the shit some of the European imports face in the CHL, with idiotic high school jocks and the prevailing attitudes about Europeans.

So it's interesting what we choose to care about.

The historical context makes your comparison a false equivalence, because its one things being labelled soft on a cultural basis etc by someone whose ancestors are the same bloodlines as you to being labelled inappropriately showy, or stupid or backward by someone whose ancestors may have owned some of yours as slaves and are part of a system that has been systematically abusing and dehumanising you for centuries. Or for native americans replace slavery with genocide and displacement. Those rocks takes rather more to push uphill!

 

[ArmChairGM89]

So let’s get to the real point if all this... is Lucas Raymond adopted? He very clearly has features the point to being mixed race, but his parents are stark white. Anybody have any insight? Not that it matters but I tend to want to know everything about my guys.

 

[wingsnut19]

Rasism is real thing. It's ok talk about it , but when it is on the news 24/7it makes people angry. Angry people got easily monipulating , election is coming.

If the topic of racism being on TV a lot makes you angry, imagine how upsetting it is for people that experience it non stop.

 

[lilidk]

If the topic of racism being on TV a lot makes you angry, imagine how upsetting it is for people that experience it non stop.

It doesn't make me angry it's depressing. When I see in the news when some animals playing knock down game on elderly that is makes me angry. People need to respect each other that's all.

 

[wingsnut19]

It doesn't make me angry it's depressing. When I see in the news when some animals playing knock down game on elderly that is makes me angry. People need to respect each other that's all.

Yes, people need to respect each other. But history has shown us that this issue is far more complicated than telling people to respect others. Racism is something deeply engrained in our culture, and it is troubling that people seem to not be able to accept this. In order to reverse that, it needs to be a continuous conversation. Non marginalized people do not get to decide when that conversation is over.

 

[LeftWingLocked]

Yes, people need to respect each other. But history has shown us that this issue is far more complicated than telling people to respect others. Racism is something deeply engrained in our culture, and it is troubling that people seem to not be able to accept this. In order to reverse that, it needs to be a continuous conversation. Non marginalized people do not get to decide when that conversation is over.

Most of us agree that we have a huge racism problem in this country but I also think people are angling racism with the NHL in a wrong way. Hockey has an income inequality issue. Most hockey players nowadays come from rich families. The old story about growing in Manitoba and playing on a pond is toast. Now its travel teams, private hockey tutors, and using sticks that cost more than someone makes in a day. I grew up watching hockey but I never played because my family wasn't well off and didn't have the money. I guess I'm an anomaly as a hockey fan.

 

[lomekian]

Most of us agree that we have a huge racism problem in this country but I also think people are angling racism with the NHL in a wrong way. Hockey has an income inequality issue. Most hockey players nowadays come from rich families. The old story about growing in Manitoba and playing on a pond is toast. Now its travel teams, private hockey tutors, and using sticks that cost more than someone makes in a day. I grew up watching hockey but I never played because my family wasn't well off and didn't have the money. I guess I'm an anomaly as a hockey fan.

If it makes you feel any better, its almost impossible to play where I grew up, and I've only met 1 person from this city who has EVER played. (He got to international u15 standard I think). My family couldn't afford a car, let alone all the other inherent costs. Funnily enough I discovered Hockey via NHL'93 and before on 'blades of steel', and got hooked to the idea. When i was 16 I saved up to go to Canada, saw one of the last Nordiques home games, and had already decided I was a wings fan. So I'm definitely an anomaly too!