Post-Game Talk: Nucks 3 Hawks 4 (SO): Hawks extend their streak, Honey Badger Don't Give A ****â„¢

[Bleach Clean]

Dragging around Salo? Salo is an extremely smart D man. I believe A.V has time and time again said where Salo stood on our team. The only reason he wasn't resigned is because of his durability and age will catch up to him soon.

Salo is smart, and was lauded for his time here, but he was carried last year. It was the first year you could see a shift in who was carrying who, and he definitely lost something in his game. Edler was running around half the time because of Salo. I stand by it, and it's been covered in advanced metrics on Canucksarmy.



I think this is a case again of projecting a players past accomplishments on current play. One can generalize Salo to be a smart, dependable defensemen. That version however, wasn't available last year. And then his play fell off drastically after the Marchand submarine.

Edler still needs a real smart solid D to cover his mistakes so he can be offensive. Like Bieksa. Alot expect more. There are top D's out there who could probably carry any partner. I truthfully dont think Edler could carry Tanev like Hamhuis has in the past.

Edler's game this year is just showing frustrations people have had of him for some time. The frustration with Hamhuis is just that he hasn't been playing up to par this season. Big difference. One will come back. The other may continue to frustrate nightly because we feel he has the tools to become more

Edler is at his best with a defensive Dman. However, he can still carry a pairing without one. These are not the same things.


The frustrations come from people wanting Edler to play like Hamhuis - that isn't going to happen. Dan's strength is his defensive game, Edler's is his offensive game. Is Edler near the top of the offensive statistics, yes. Is Hamhuis at the top of his defensive statistics? Not by my count. But on top of that people want Edler to be as, or near as good as Hammer in the Dzone. Is that rational?


People can't complain about Edler's offense because he's near the top. They can nit-pick his D work. However, a defensive Dman who's calling card it should be to play sound defense, is struggling hard. So Dan isn't contributing at either end of the ice. Yet the call is for Edler to steady his game? Even though he's played better this year against stronger competition?


This is about past bias clouding current analysis. Nothing more. Right now, no one is helping Edler get anything done, even against stronger competition. Yet, there he is, pumping in the points. While Hamhuis gets a free pass. You say Hamhuis gets the benefit of the doubt for traditionally being a steady defensive option, how come Edler doesn't get the same for being a contributing two-way option?

 

[Win One Before I Die]

Sedin Sedin Kesler
Kassian Burrows Booth
Hansen Schroeder Raymond
whoever

do it

 

[thepuckmonster]

Sedin Sedin Kesler
Kassian Burrows Booth
Hansen Schroeder Raymond
whoever

do it

Why are all the wingers on the middle two lines on their off wings?

/nitpick

 

[Pseudonymous*]

Bleach Clean,

I dont think youre taking into account potential. Hamhuis has always played up to his potential until this past streak. Edler was pretty solid in the playoffs a couple years ago, thats it. I dont care how good his offensive stats are now. The guy is capable of playing better D, he has the tools. This isn't a new thing hes struggling with

A current bad streak from a real damn consistent player who lives up to his potential every year is nothing compared to a player continually not playing up to par with the player he can be

Maybe most of us expect more from edler than you?

Also we'll agree to disagree about Edler being able to carry a D pairing. I think he needs somebody extremely good defensively. Or he'll be the 2nd pairing

I think hamhuis will be the 1st pairing everytime on this team. Only reason edler gets more minutes is the powerplay

Unless Edler turns into the player we've seen him be at times

Its sounding like you are giving benefit of the doubt to the more valuable D while im more frustrated because I expect more from one player. I expect Edler to be good offensively and defensively because i believe hes capable (it may not happen) , I know Hamhuis will be the player he is again, which is amazing defensively and decent offensively

 

[HankieDankie]

It's like the canucks have 4 kids on defense, they youngest just doesn't know any better yet (jason), they have a quiet one who has a lot of potential but doesn't apply himself (alex), a naughty one that makes you laugh and cry ..you take the good and the bad as it comes and at the end of the day you say i did my best..but the oldest, he should know better! (dan)..then you have their cousin keith, who never fits in and is always an outcast...and his little brother chris..chris may be the one bright spot of the family if he gives it a shot.

Now Keith should have some big responsibilities as he's a big kid, but he only gets along with his younger brother chris. Only Dan can keep Kevin in check but Dan hasn't been himself lately and someone else has to keep Kevin in check..Jason is too young to deal with Kevin so that leaves Alex..we'll see how alex does ..

One big dysfunctional family, MoDern Family, 7:00 pm every other day on Sportsnet. Frustrating. On so many levels.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Bleach Clean,

I dont think youre taking into account potential. Hamhuis has always played up to his potential until this past streak. Edler was pretty solid in the playoffs a couple years ago, thats it. I dont care how good his offensive stats are now. The guy is capable of playing better D, he has the tools. This isn't a new thing hes struggling with

A current bad streak from a real damn consistent player who lives up to his potential every year is nothing compared to a player continually not playing up to par with the player he can be

Maybe most of us expect more from edler than you?

But the player Edler "can be" is miles better than what Hamhuis is. If both players play to their potential, Hamhuis doesn't touch Edler in ability. Edler at that point is a franchise Dman. So it's still an unfair comparison.


Hamhuis is "capable" of playing better D, why isn't he? Capability doesn't matter, contribution does. So what are each contributing right now? Hamhuis is middling offensively and poor defensively. Edler is perhaps the same defensively and excellent offensively. Who is contributing more?


Not to mention the inherent differences in a defensive Dman vs. a 2way Dman. Each should be judged by different standards because they don't play the same type of game.

Also we'll agree to disagree about Edler being able to carry a D pairing. I think he needs somebody extremely good defensively. Or he'll be the 2nd pairing

I think hamhuis will be the 1st pairing everytime on this team. Only reason edler gets more minutes is the powerplay

Unless Edler turns into the player we've seen him be at times

Its sounding like you are giving benefit of the doubt to the more valuable D while im more frustrated because I expect more from one player.

Agree to disagree on the first point. What I saw last year was Edler carrying Salo. You might see it different. Fair enough.


I think your expectations are too great. It's not about giving the benefit of the doubt to the more "valuable D", it's judging each by their style of game. Hamhuis failing at being a defensive D is a lot worse to me than Edler struggling in the Dzone (which he is, but not overtly so). Edler still is a 2way defender and he's doing more than enough offensively to make up for it, while Hamhuis is doing what?


I foresee both continued to be paired together as the team's #1 pairing. The rest will be left to figure things out for themselves.

 

[Towel-Power]

I'm happy to know that the great Honey Badger is so strong he can concuss Hossa with an elbow brush.

That's Torres' fault and and Hawks fans can go **** themselves if they think refs didn't hand this win to them on a silver platter and their team still managed to **** it up in regulation.

I hope you don't seriously believe that. Canucks were outclassed completely.

 

[Pseudonymous*]

.....

You see them sticking together working? Everyone here seems alot more confident Edler will adapt to his offside than I am.

I believe its going to limit how far we go, i may be the only one who sees it as that big of a problem but im sticking to that, have since before the start of the season.

Having your best D not being at his best and the other D's stuck with whoever is left, well, recipe for disaster. Even if they all step it up a bit. I believe our D will be exposed in the playoffs

 

[Bleach Clean]

Found this old blog on Salo:


http://vansunsportsblogs.com/2012/0...-canucks-really-change-after-the-boston-game/


In it, the data cites Salo has an adjusted Fenwick below 0 for the majority of his last season here. So much so, that AV was trying to shelter him in the playoffs by bumping Tanev up to play with Hamhuis.




There's also a blurb about Edler no being ready, and him needing a stay at home Dman to "drive play against top competition". The last phrase being about just the hardest thing a Dman can be expected to do while playing big minutes. He seems to be doing exactly that, even with Hamhuis looking lost.

 

[thepuckmonster]

I hope you don't seriously believe that. Canucks were outclassed completely.

Yes that's why the Hawks gave up a 2 goal lead in 4 minutes with ugliest goals being scored. Because they "outclassed" (whatever that means, sounds ********) the Canucks.

Hard to get momentum when your constantly on the PK for ******** calls (Ballard was soft make up call for missed icing contact and Daniel's was a joke, Kesler and Toews should have been a wash and Lapierre's was legit, Hansen's was the most ******** call I've ever seen in the last 2 years).

 

[Tiranis]

Yes that's why the Hawks gave up a 2 goal lead in 4 minutes with ugliest goals being scored. Because they "outclassed" (whatever that means, sounds ********) the Canucks.

Hard to get momentum when your constantly on the PK for ******** calls (Ballard was soft make up call for missed icing contact and Daniel's was a joke, Kesler and Toews should have been a wash and Lapierre's was legit).

Honestly, not sure what game you were watching. We were outchanced by an absolutely ridiculous margin (24 to 9 at even strength). The Hawks dominated possession and chances. Canucks rode the goaltending (on both sides) to a 3-3 tie in regulation, but deserved much worse.

 

[Pseudonymous*]

Found this old blog on Salo:


http://vansunsportsblogs.com/2012/0...-canucks-really-change-after-the-boston-game/


In it, the data cites Salo has an adjusted Fenwick below 0 for the majority of his last season here. So much so, that AV was trying to shelter him in the playoffs by bumping Tanev up to play with Hamhuis.




There's also a blurb about Edler no being ready, and him needing a stay at home Dman to "drive play against top competition". The last phrase being about just the hardest thing a Dman can be expected to do while playing big minutes. He seems to be doing exactly that, even with Hamhuis looking lost.

I dont need stats, i watch the games. And the playoffs were against one team, not even a full 7 game series. And we lost and alot of canucks came out flat.

Point is. Dont need stats.

I know Salo is a very good D, no stats could tell be otherwise. lol

Stats can be used to prove anything you wish

Edler needs somebody to make up for his mistakes (a babysitter), the same way bieksa does. Im sticking to that. I believe he shouldn't need that. I believe theres alot more in there and its painfully frustrating.

 

[Tiranis]

I dont need stats, i watch the games.

We all watch the games. Surprise, surprise. Where exactly do you think this conversation is going if he sees one thing and you see another? Stats, which in this case are actually of the fairly reliable variety, introduce some objectivity into what otherwise might as well be a pissing contest.

Stats can be used to prove anything you wish

Sadly they can't be used to prove Salo was anything but a burden on the rest of the team last season. You're welcome to try though if you actually believe what you say.

 

[Bleach Clean]

You see them sticking together working? Everyone here seems alot more confident Edler will adapt to his offside than I am.

I believe its going to limit how far we go, i may be the only one who sees it as that big of a problem but im sticking to that, have since before the start of the season.

Having your best D not being at his best and the other D's stuck with whoever is left, well, recipe for disaster. Even if they all step it up a bit. I believe our D will be exposed in the playoffs

Edler has to do it. There's no other way. Even if they start bringing in other Dmen, I expect that top pairing to persist because it gives the Canucks the best utility. It allows them to ice the team's two best Dmen for large portions of the game.


The limit to how far this team will go will come down to the offense. It has for the past two years. Defensively, this team's been pretty stingy in near every series they have played since 2010.



I just don't see a marked difference in Edler's play from this year to last. He has always had defensive lapses. Actually, he's looked far better on the right side than I thought he would. His CorsiRelQoC is above 1 (1.047) for the first time since the 2009-2010 playoffs. That's big when that pairing gets the big minutes against the opposition's best. How can that possibly be a recipe for disaster?


This team will again sink or swim based on its offense, specifically depth offense. The D is more than adequate. Just have to wait for Bieksa and Garrison to gel as a pairing.

 

[Pseudonymous*]

We all watch the games. Surprise, surprise. Where exactly do you think this conversation is going if he sees one thing and you see another? Stats, which in this case are actually of the fairly reliable variety, introduce some objectivity into what otherwise might as well be a pissing contest.



Sadly they can't be used to prove Salo was anything but a burden on the rest of the team last season.

I didn't see that debate going anywhere, thats why i was trying to end it. I respect he has a different opinion, im not trying to change his opinion

 

[Pseudonymous*]

We all watch the games. Surprise, surprise. Where exactly do you think this conversation is going if he sees one thing and you see another? Stats, which in this case are actually of the fairly reliable variety, introduce some objectivity into what otherwise might as well be a pissing contest.



Sadly they can't be used to prove Salo was anything but a burden on the rest of the team last season. You're welcome to try though if you actually believe what you say.

So basically what youre telling me is Edler is capable of carrying a D man and he usually plays up to his potential more than Hamhuis? Because that was my point/the debate, lol people can spin off that point all they want in order to try to be right about something, but i will not have apart of that because its time consuming, pointless and would take it far off track

I dont think anybody carried Salo. There was a period he struggled, sure. More than any other years. I am also glad we decided to go another route. Thats all ill touch on that

Im leaving this thread with the only thing i wanted to say. Edler should be more than capable of carrying a pairing and being an all around good D man, a #1. He is not there and hasn't been there for a long time. Its frustrating. Hamhuis, i expect he'll be the defensive D hes always been. Thats that. You guys are entitled to believing hes playing great or hamhuis is alot more frustrating or whatever. lol

 

[Bleach Clean]

I didn't see that debate going anywhere, thats why i was trying to end it. I respect he has a different opinion, im not trying to change his opinion

Just to add a bit to the Salo statline before this dies: The article cites that the sample data only accounted for 7 games played by Salo (likely due to injury) on its 11-20 sample section. This section also may have been thrown off by that small sample. Therefore, it's possibly Salo could have had an adjusted Fenwick of below 0 for 50~ of the 68 total games he played. Meaning, Edler was saddled with a sub-top4 defender for the majority of that time frame.


Quite clearly, Salo wasn't the same and AV knew it.

 

[BoHorvatFan]

The bottom line is Bieksa and hamhuis were great together and Edler and Ehrhoff were great together. Losing Ehrhoff has screwed everything up since. Garrison is not in the same class as him and we're paying Garrison more freaking money and Ehrhoff is only signed for a couple more years!

Biggest mistake Gillis has made was letting a top notch skating, puck moving, dynamic d-man go and so far not being able to replace him because there are few players in the league with his skill set, sure he had some flaws but overall he was incredible for us.

 

[Pseudonymous*]

Just to add a bit to the Salo statline before this dies: The article cites that the sample data only accounted for 7 games played by Salo (likely due to injury) on its 11-20 sample section. This section also may have been thrown off by that small sample. Therefore, it's possibly Salo could have had an adjusted Fenwick of below 0 for 50~ of the 68 total games he played. Meaning, Edler was saddled with a sub-top4 defender for the majority of that time frame.


Quite clearly, Salo wasn't the same and AV knew it.

No he didn't look the same, it was definitely time to part ways. Glad to see him get back to himself this year with Tampa and hope it continues, great guy.

Like bieksa, he always had that knack for a clutch goal. Ill miss that

 

[Bleach Clean]

So basically what youre telling me is Edler is capable of carrying a D man and he usually plays up to his potential more than Hamhuis? Because that was my point/the debate, lol people can spin off that point all they want in order to try to be right about something, but i will not have apart of that because its time consuming, pointless and would take it far off track

I dont think anybody carried Salo. There was a period he struggled, sure. More than any other years. I am also glad we decided to go another route. Thats all ill touch on that

If Salo is playing like a sub top4 Dman for 50 of his 68 games _AND_ Edler finishes with a better CorsiQoC than he had with Ehrhoff, how is he not attributed with carrying the pairing? Can only a defensive Dman carry a pairing?


The potential bit is hard to quantify. But if Edler does more than he is right now, we're talking a franchise level Dman. If he tightens up his Dzone play while contributing offense like he has, what counter argument could there be?

 

[RobertKron]

I dont need stats, i watch the games. And the playoffs were against one team, not even a full 7 game series. And we lost and alot of canucks came out flat.

Point is. Dont need stats.

I know Salo is a very good D, no stats could tell be otherwise. lol

Stats can be used to prove anything you wish

Edler needs somebody to make up for his mistakes (a babysitter), the same way bieksa does. Im sticking to that. I believe he shouldn't need that. I believe theres alot more in there and its painfully frustrating.

What is the point in even engaging in a discussion if all you're going to do is cover your eyes and ears and scream "IM NOT LISTENING" when they back up what they see with numbers and reasoning?

 

[Pseudonymous*]

The bottom line is Bieksa and hamhuis were great together and Edler and Ehrhoff were great together. Losing Ehrhoff has screwed everything up since. Garrison is not in the same class as him and we're paying Garrison more freaking money and Ehrhoff is only signed for a couple more years!

Biggest mistake Gillis has made was letting a top notch skating, puck moving, dynamic d-man go and so far not being able to replace him because there are few players in the league with his skill set, sure he had some flaws but overall he was incredible for us.

Speaking of letting go ehrhoff, what injury was he playing with in the playoffs, did it come out? Because there better have been a real damn good excuse. He was brutal.

 

[thepuckmonster]

The bottom line is Bieksa and hamhuis were great together and Edler and Ehrhoff were great together. Losing Ehrhoff has screwed everything up since. Garrison is not in the same class as him and we're paying Garrison more freaking money and Ehrhoff is only signed for a couple more years!

Biggest mistake Gillis has made was letting a top notch skating, puck moving, dynamic d-man go and so far not being able to replace him because there are few players in the league with his skill set, sure he had some flaws but overall he was incredible for us.

You make me want to jab knitting needles in my eyes. Seriously.

Are you actually going to whine about this for 10 years he's in Buffalo? Question: what team made the playoffs last year, and which one didn't?

Bonus Question: How good is Buffalo's defense right now? Hint: Ask Ryan Miller

Our PP is hardly the issue right now and Hoffer is a bad defender.

 

[thepuckmonster]

Speaking of letting go ehrhoff, what injury was he playing with in the playoffs, did it come out? Because there better have been a real damn good excuse. He was brutal.

Separated shoulder.

 

[RobertKron]

Speaking of letting go ehrhoff, what injury was he playing with in the playoffs, did it come out? Because there better have been a real damn good excuse. He was brutal.

Shoulder. It was being numbed before every game in the finals, if I recall.