Post-Game Talk: Nucks 3 Hawks 4 (SO): Hawks extend their streak, Honey Badger Don't Give A ****â„¢

[Pseudonymous*]

What is the point in even engaging in a discussion if all you're going to do is cover your eyes and ears and scream "IM NOT LISTENING" when they back up what they see with numbers and reasoning?

What are you talking about? I gave my opinion. And explained my reasonings for opinions.

I explained that hamhuis has been consistent and played up to his potential for years and IMO, edler has not. So thats why i have more frustration there.

I dont need stats to back this up.

I can feel out a poster and see if theres room to change their mind. Or if I have the tools to. I do not. So why would i? You dont think there are parts to a game that can't be shown on stats where we might disagree on? That might hinder my ability to prove my opinion to be correct?

 

[Bleach Clean]

The bottom line is Bieksa and hamhuis were great together and Edler and Ehrhoff were great together. Losing Ehrhoff has screwed everything up since. Garrison is not in the same class as him and we're paying Garrison more freaking money and Ehrhoff is only signed for a couple more years!

Biggest mistake Gillis has made was letting a top notch skating, puck moving, dynamic d-man go and so far not being able to replace him because there are few players in the league with his skill set, sure he had some flaws but overall he was incredible for us.

Early returns don't support this, but if Garrison and Bieksa gel then no one is even talking about Ehrhoff anymore. It's going to come down to both players getting some poise back in their games.

No he didn't look the same, it was definitely time to part ways. Glad to see him get back to himself this year with Tampa and hope it continues, great uy.

Like bieksa, he always had that knack for a clutch goal. Ill miss that

Hey I miss Sami too, but the team just has to move forward, and it has with Garrison.

 

[RobertKron]

What are you talking about? I gave my opinion. And explained my reasonings for opinions.

I explained that hamhuis has been consistent and played up to his potential for years and IMO, edler has not. So thats why i have more frustration there.

I dont need stats to back this up.

You basically asserted something about Salo, had it demolished, and then pretended you were never talking about Salo. What's the point in actively seeking out a hockey discussion forum if you don't actually want to engage in discussions?

 

[Bleach Clean]

You make me want to jab knitting needles in my eyes. Seriously.

Are you actually going to whine about this for 10 years he's in Buffalo? Question: what team made the playoffs last year, and which one didn't?

Bonus Question: How good is Buffalo's defense right now? Hint: Ask Ryan Miller

Our PP is hardly the issue right now and Hoffer is a bad defender.

dat first comment.

 

[Pseudonymous*]

You basically asserted something about Salo, had it demolished, and then pretended you were never talking about Salo. What's the point in actively seeking out a hockey discussion forum if you don't actually want to engage in discussions?

Do you truly think everything can be proven with stats? Do you think every single point should be argued to death and should end in stat exchanging?

Do you think posters here on hfboards who just simply like to give their opinion on players should be forced into debating non stop?

My opinion was about Edler and that i dont think he is capable of carrying a D quite yet. Then somebody wanted to debate Salo, im simply not up for it. Its 1:30am. I decided to leave it with my opinion and he could disagree.

Even if somebody had proved Salo had an off year, doesn't even prove whether or not Edler can carry a D and maintain being a top pairing... into the post season and far into it

So get off my ass. lol

 

[Bleach Clean]

What are you talking about? I gave my opinion. And explained my reasonings for opinions.

I explained that hamhuis has been consistent and played up to his potential for years and IMO, edler has not. So thats why i have more frustration there.

I dont need stats to back this up.

I can feel out a poster and see if theres room to change their mind. Or if I have the tools to. I do not. So why would i? You dont think there are parts to a game that can't be shown on stats where we might disagree on? That might hinder my ability to prove my opinion to be correct?

It's true, not everyone puts stock into advanced stats. I wasn't expecting you to either. However, I wanted to quantify why I think Salo was sub-par last year and I think you more or less agree.


The point being: The standards to judge Edler have to change IMO. He's done a lot when his D partners haven't been up to snuff. It's the same here. Only I think you're more concerned with him looking sub-par due to a switch to the right side, than the results he's achieving. Give it time.

 

[Pseudonymous*]

It's true, not everyone puts stock into advanced stats. I wasn't expecting you to either. However, I wanted to quantify why I think Salo was sub-par last year and I think you more or less agree.


The point being: The standards to judge Edler have to change IMO. He's done a lot when his D partners haven't been up to snuff. It's the same here. Only I think you're more concerned with him looking sub-par due to a switch to the right side, than the results he's achieving. Give it time.

Yeah except this is a shortened season and the playoffs aren't even that far away. Makes it alot harder to be have the whole 'give it time' attitude

Really really wish Garrison was a right side D

 

[Lonny Bohonos]

Edler is going to always struggle to reach his full potential. Its in his head.

But hes a very good dman who when hes on his game can play with the best of them.

 

[nucksfan8888]

Just watched the game now, already knew the score but its a chicago vanouver game, just had to watch.

The problem is the defence IMO it's what's making the forwards and the goalies look bad at times. Any structure is only as strong as it's foundation and the foundation of this teams system is the defence, right now it's not very supportive. As much as it is a personel problem, it is a coaching problem.

Hamhuis and Bieksa need to play together, splitting them up because they were struggling together and sticking them with partners who were also struggling but have no experience playing with was bound to work(not).

Also up until recently Tanev was a rock defensively, but he's been taking more chances in general this year, more so the last couple weeks. I believe this comes from the coaching staff, and in part because even Tanev can see the gaping hole on the right side.

The first goal by chicago only happens because Edler is playing the right side, instead of having his stick to the outside it is in the middle of the ice, and to check sharp he either had do what he did, or pivot much earlier and charge him. Edler does not have the agility/first step speed to do that. As much as Edler - Hamhuis should be a beastly pairing just because of the names, it isn't because as much as Hamhuis covers for Bieksa, Bieksa's tenacity and agility(when compared with Edler) help Hamhuis.

IMO the canucks currently have 1 offensive dman(Edler) 1 defensive dman (Tanev) and 4 guys who are not sure what they are ATM.

Easiest way to fix this is stick the 2 guys who have been playing their roles up to par this year together play them 20+ minutes. Put the Hamhuis - Bieksa pairing back together and let them figure it out. Rotate Ballard, Barker, and Vandeermeer with Garrison until you find a pairing that can at least box out the net and chip it off the glass. Which ever pairing is playing better play them as the second pairing until Hamhuis Bieksa figure it out.

 

[AmazingNuck]

The thing about rating a player is that no matter how good you rate them or how badly you rate them, they're still going to play the same way.

Edler cannot carry a defensive pairing. You can post his offensive numbers all you want, but scoring more points as a defenseman doesn't necessarily make you a better offensive defenseman. I'd rather have an Ehrhoff at 19g/51p than Edler at 11g/49p, or even Edler at 15g/60p. Why? Because right now, Ehrhoff back in 09-11 is better off the scoresheet than Edler.

Edler was a better all-around defenseman than Ehrhoff because he was better defensively, but now he has lost that edge, and Ehrhoff is still miles beyond Edler in the transitional game.


I find it odd how people so vehemently defend Edler as if that will make him a better defenseman instead of objectively looking at his play. 1. He's not fast enough, so he can't cover the ice properly after he pinches and make it back in time. 2. He's not physical enough, so he can't intimidate people. 3. He's not a great puck-handler outside of the offensive zone.

 

[Zarpan]

The bottom line is Bieksa and hamhuis were great together and Edler and Ehrhoff were great together. Losing Ehrhoff has screwed everything up since. Garrison is not in the same class as him and we're paying Garrison more freaking money and Ehrhoff is only signed for a couple more years!

Biggest mistake Gillis has made was letting a top notch skating, puck moving, dynamic d-man go and so far not being able to replace him because there are few players in the league with his skill set, sure he had some flaws but overall he was incredible for us.

Should also note that Buffalo's PP has been below average the last couple seasons, and their conversion rate has actually gone down since Ehrhoff's been there. Their offense hasn't really improved either. He's a pretty good player, but hasn't proven to be a difference maker so far in Buffalo.

 

[Pseudonymous*]

Edler's physical play makes him more valuable than ehrhoff. Its something he doesn't bring often. Maybe because he wants to save his body for the playoffs or maybe because of his ongoing back issues and not sure his body can hold up, maybe both. Either way, its really holding him back from being the force he could be. When I read that article saying there isn't much they can do about his back and he'll have to live with it, i was pretty disappointed

When hes playing at his best, hes much more valuable than ehrhoff. Just got to hope that hes that guy when playoffs start.

 

[mossey3535]

I think we should ban all mention of Hodgson and Ehrhoff. Seriously. I thought we had a great team with a perfect coaching staff (hahaha as if I believe that second one).

And now we've fallen apart without one dude who hasn't made a difference in proportion to his inflated contract on the Sabres? I guess that 4th overall PP from last year was just smoke and mirrors huh? Also, it's not like we were 1st in the league all the years Ehrhoff was here. We converted at the same rate in his first year here as we did in our first year without him.

Please.

 

[Pip]

he let in 3 questionable goals,especially the 3rd goal,flopping like a fish out of water. he also scored on himself in the shootout.

Well, at about the mid point of the 2nd I was prepared to give props to Schneider and he did end up playing OK, but the goals he did let in were questionable. And when Lu lets in 2/3 in the shootout, fans start freaking out so...I'll give him an pass, but in no way did he steal anything for the team tonight.

In the end, its just like St.Louis, a shootout loss where our goalie gave up 3 and another 2 in a shootout.

Schneider was by far our best player tonight and stole us a point, you guys are really showing your bias with these comments. It seems that everyone has a certain scapegoat or two that they like to pick on whether it be Garrison/Bieksa, Kesler, Kassian, or Luongo/Schneider. We need to try to look at things objectively and not let preconcieved opinions cloud out judgement. I am hardly innocent here, I was on the scratch Kassian bandwagon but thankfully Tiranis talked some sense into me and I've seen that I'm also in agreement with him that people are unjustly calling out Garrison in these GDTs and PGTs.

We only seem to focus on the negatives and disregard the positive things happening. Constantly changing around our d pairings and forward lines isn't going to help anything and as soon as Booth comes into the top 6 again, we should stick with our lines and roll wih them for a while to allow them to gain chemistry. IMHO

Sedins-Burrows/Kassian (depending on how the game is)
Booth Kesler Kassian/Burrows
Raymond Shroeder Hansen
Higgins Lappierre Volpatti

I've been disappointed with Kassian as of late, but am willing to give him a try with Kesler than we can go with the AMEX line and reevaluate our third line. Also calling for Kesler playing poorly is ridiculous, he is just returning from a serious injury and will take time to get back to 100%. The dive was inexcusable though.

 

[Pseudonymous*]

I think we should ban all mention of Hodgson and Ehrhoff. Seriously. I thought we had a great team with a perfect coaching staff (hahaha as if I believe that second one).

And now we've fallen apart without one dude who hasn't made a difference in proportion to his inflated contract on the Sabres?

Please.

I dont think its that crazy for people to think that. He was a huge minute eater on this team. And he made our pairings make sense.

Losing a player like that is going to hurt.

I think we're still a great team and im not also saying that but i can understand why so many have that opinion. Its not as absurd as you make it seem

 

[Pseudonymous*]

On another note, Kesler is back to his old self. This guy needs to use his linemates. I sure hope one day before the playoffs, he'll learn this.

Dont have a huge issue with his play, hes been fine, especially for coming back from a long break but he'll never be as good as he can be if he simply got back to basics

Was hoping he managed to read a forum or an article during his time off and saw all the comments about how he doesn't use his linemates.

 

[Tiranis]

I think we should ban all mention of Hodgson and Ehrhoff. Seriously. I thought we had a great team with a perfect coaching staff (hahaha as if I believe that second one).

And now we've fallen apart without one dude who hasn't made a difference in proportion to his inflated contract on the Sabres? I guess that 4th overall PP from last year was just smoke and mirrors huh? Also, it's not like we were 1st in the league all the years Ehrhoff was here. We converted at the same rate in his first year here as we did in our first year without him.

Please.

There's obviously things wrong with the team as there isn't a single perfect team in the league but these losses tend to bring out everyone that has any sort of pet agenda/hypothesis going on.

 

[Bleach Clean]

The thing about rating a player is that no matter how good you rate them or how badly you rate them, they're still going to play the same way.

Edler cannot carry a defensive pairing. You can post his offensive numbers all you want, but scoring more points as a defenseman doesn't necessarily make you a better offensive defenseman. I'd rather have an Ehrhoff at 19g/51p than Edler at 11g/49p, or even Edler at 15g/60p. Why? Because right now, Ehrhoff back in 09-11 is better off the scoresheet than Edler.

By what metric?



And if Edler can't carry a pairing, what was he doing last year with Salo last year? Further, what's he doing now, with stronger underlying statistics when paired with a struggling Hamhuis?

Edler was a better all-around defenseman than Ehrhoff because he was better defensively, but now he has lost that edge, and Ehrhoff is still miles beyond Edler in the transitional game.


I find it odd how people so vehemently defend Edler as if that will make him a better defenseman instead of objectively looking at his play. 1. He's not fast enough, so he can't cover the ice properly after he pinches and make it back in time. 2. He's not physical enough, so he can't intimidate people. 3. He's not a great puck-handler outside of the offensive zone.

Edler is still better than Ehrhoff defensively. Again, what metric are you using to determine Ehrhoff is better? Especially considering he was victimized in the playoffs in 2011?


Objectivity is all I'm using. Where's yours?


If Edler struggles with the 3 points you listed, why did Gillis just pay him 5m per? Further, why did he allow Ehrhoff to walk for roughly the same amount?

 

[mossey3535]

There's obviously things wrong with the team as there isn't a single perfect team in the league but these losses tend to bring out everyone that has any sort of pet agenda/hypothesis going on.

Yeah. I'm not going to lie, I'm one of them lol. That's what the internet is for!!!! Huzzah!!!

 

[Pseudonymous*]

Shoulder. It was being numbed before every game in the finals, if I recall.

Ahh, makes sense. Yeah figured it was something like that

 

[Lonny Bohonos]

I dont think its that crazy for people to think that. He was a huge minute eater on this team. And he made our pairings make sense.

Losing a player like that is going to hurt.

I think we're still a great team and im not also saying that but i can understand why so many have that opinion. Its not as absurd as you make it seem

Ehrhoff....It just, makes, sense...

Sounds like some sort of advert.

 

[biturbo19]

But the player Edler "can be" is miles better than what Hamhuis is. If both players play to their potential, Hamhuis doesn't touch Edler in ability. Edler at that point is a franchise Dman. So it's still an unfair comparison.


Hamhuis is "capable" of playing better D, why isn't he? Capability doesn't matter, contribution does. So what are each contributing right now? Hamhuis is middling offensively and poor defensively. Edler is perhaps the same defensively and excellent offensively. Who is contributing more?


Not to mention the inherent differences in a defensive Dman vs. a 2way Dman. Each should be judged by different standards because they don't play the same type of game.








Agree to disagree on the first point. What I saw last year was Edler carrying Salo. You might see it different. Fair enough.


I think your expectations are too great. It's not about giving the benefit of the doubt to the more "valuable D", it's judging each by their style of game. Hamhuis failing at being a defensive D is a lot worse to me than Edler struggling in the Dzone (which he is, but not overtly so). Edler still is a 2way defender and he's doing more than enough offensively to make up for it, while Hamhuis is doing what?


I foresee both continued to be paired together as the team's #1 pairing. The rest will be left to figure things out for themselves.

Yes great, Salo was a terrible slow useless old man.

And this is why Edler is a trainwreck this year, while Hedman is a stud?


These corsi stats are just a fancier way of box score scouting and i'm honestly tired of it dominating this forum.

Advanced metrics have their place and they are a nice complementary tool in determining how a player has played...

But they're an indication of what a player has and is doing...not a measure of what they can an will do. They completely ignore the human element of the game...and if it was as easy as just boiling hockey down to a set of Corsi stats and putting together the best performers...being a cup-winning GM would be easy.

These stats are just another way of showing trends that are otherwise evident based on what actually happens over the course of 'actual hockey games'. It's a mathematical alternative to evaluating the play that has happened. But it's so far from showing the nuance of why the stats end up the way they do. What they players are doing.

And the fact that it ultimately ends up showing that winning teams have good 'advanced metrics' isn't all that much more useful than saying that...'the Stanley Cup winner scored more goals than the other team'. It's about how things happen, how things turn out, and how things adhere to normal ranges.

 

[Ainec]

I always thought Ehrhoff was a DAMN good defenseman

But I also thought Hamhuis was our most reliable D

 

[Bleach Clean]

Yes great, Salo was a terrible slow useless old man.

And this is why Edler is a trainwreck this year, while Hedman is a stud?


These corsi stats are just a fancier way of box score scouting and i'm honestly tired of it dominating this forum.

Advanced metrics have their place and they are a nice complementary tool in determining how a player has played...

But they're an indication of what a player has and is doing...not a measure of what they can an will do. They completely ignore the human element of the game...and if it was as easy as just boiling hockey down to a set of Corsi stats and putting together the best performers...being a cup-winning GM would be easy.

These stats are just another way of showing trends that are otherwise evident based on what actually happens over the course of 'actual hockey games'. It's a mathematical alternative to evaluating the play that has happened. But it's so far from showing the nuance of why the stats end up the way they do. What they players are doing.

And the fact that it ultimately ends up showing that winning teams have good 'advanced metrics' isn't all that much more useful than saying that...'the Stanley Cup winner scored more goals than the other team'. It's about how things happen, how things turn out, and how things adhere to normal ranges.

What about when a losing team has good possession numbers, as in the case of LA before they went on their cup run? Do these metrics mean anything then? Or now when again LA is a good fenwick team. If they make the playoffs, do you become a believer?


If Hedman is stated to be playing against weaker competition, along with Salo, does it not enlighten you further on what you are seeing? I'm pretty sure Edler could look like an allstar playing against buttery soft opposition, maybe that will sate some of the posters here? Is that what you want?



Everything in context. Advanced stats help provide a context where there is none. If you say Hedman is a stud and I say he's taking advantage of the lesser lights, how do we determine who's right? Youtube clips?

 

[Tiranis]

I'm sorry if I don't put much worth into what most of us on here see.

For one, watching a game once is not nearly enough. That's why teams analyze tape over and over. Two, you're emotionally invested in the success of the team and your favourite players. Three, unless you keep detailed notes, the big mistakes are going to be on the forefront of your mind while player's overall play is going to be a mere afterthough. It's how somebody who has an uneventful crappy game can get less criticism than somebody having an outstanding game but making one big mistake. It's how crappy wins get less criticism than excellently played fluke losses.