Norris Discussion III

Ten88Nineteen

Registered User
May 22, 2011
916
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Karlsson deserves the Norris more than any other defenseman simply because of how he played to get his team into the playoffs. After a three game losing streak to open February, Karlsson took it upon himself both offensively and defensively to get his team out of the losing trend.

Results: Ottawa went 23-4-4 in the last 31 games after that losing streak and Karlsson had 31pts in those 31 games and was +12 in that stretch and played an avarage of 27:35min/game. No other team in the history of the sport has come back from a defecit of that magnitude.

Nice hyperbole, but we've been over this. Karlsson had 12 points in 12 games in the month before Hammond's first start and yet Ottawa was 4-6-2 in that span. If Karlsson "took it upon himself both offensively and defensively to get his team out of the losing trend." why didn't their record improve in that month before Hammond was in net?


Which is ridiculous.

It's obviously based on his recent playoff performances more than his regular season play. Doughty has shown he clearly has the talent and ability to be a Norris-caliber defenseman, but he certainly didn't play like one this season.

It's getting to the point where Weber/Doughty are pencilled in as the Norris winners at the start of the season, and even mediocre play (by their standards) won't change some peoples minds.

This is such a tired talking point. Even for fans who don't ever watch any hockey other than their own team, if they would ever look at anything other than point totals they would see Doughty had continuously performed all season long. He had another amazing season despite the issues LA had with their D corps which forced him to average 29 minutes a game (his career average had been somewhere just over 25).

Those minutes, by the way, were not easy ones. He played an average of 2:38 shorthanded (Weber 2:27, Josi 2:26, Subban 2:09, Karlsson 0:33), 22:54 even strength (the only player within even a minute of this is Suter, who played less games overall), and had a higher corsi rel qoc (played against the best players on the opposing team more often) than any of the top candidates other than Josi/Weber.

But yes, I know, it's easier just to follow the usual: point total lower than other defensemen -> team missed playoffs -> not a good season. This type of mentality is why the Norris has been called into question again and again over the years, because many of the voters fall into the same trap.
 

Micklebot

Moderator
Apr 27, 2010
53,859
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Nice hyperbole, but we've been over this. Karlsson had 12 points in 12 games in the month before Hammond's first start and yet Ottawa was 4-6-2 in that span. If Karlsson "took it upon himself both offensively and defensively to get his team out of the losing trend." why didn't their record improve in that month before Hammond was in net?
...

Is anybody clamming that Karlsson can win games on his own and controls not only what happens when he is on the ice but also what happens while he sits on the bench?

In the 12 games prior to Hammond coming into the game where Lehner was injured, Karlsson had 2.18 pts/60, 59% SCF%, 56% CF% and 70% GF%.

I get that hockey teams win and lose as a team and that no one person can singlehandedly do it themselves, but if any dman played a season the way Karlsson did those 12 games, they'd be winning the Hart and the Norris regardless of the team missing the playoffs with a terrible 68pts season record.

No doubt not having atrocious goaltending was huge, and Hammond provided far better than just "not atrocious", but Karlsson was flat out dominating in Jan and Feb. He without a doubt carried the team on his back.
 

Ten88Nineteen

Registered User
May 22, 2011
916
1
Is anybody clamming that Karlsson can win games on his own and controls not only what happens when he is on the ice but also what happens while he sits on the bench?

In the 12 games prior to Hammond coming into the game where Lehner was injured, Karlsson had 2.18 pts/60, 59% SCF%, 56% CF% and 70% GF%.

I get that hockey teams win and lose as a team and that no one person can singlehandedly do it themselves, but if any dman played a season the way Karlsson did those 12 games, they'd be winning the Hart and the Norris regardless of the team missing the playoffs with a terrible 68pts season record.

No doubt not having atrocious goaltending was huge, and Hammond provided far better than just "not atrocious", but Karlsson was flat out dominating in Jan and Feb. He without a doubt carried the team on his back.

Uh, you basically just said exactly the same thing I did.

I know you're trying to use this only as an example of how good Karlsson is, but you know as well as I do that he had an equally bad first half and that the trophy shouldn't be about how well you performed for one particular stretch of the year.

The argument I was responding to claimed Karlsson was most responsible for Ottawa making the playoffs, and should get Norris votes because of it. If this is true, why - with Karlsson's dominant performance - was Ottawa still struggling until Hammond entered the fray?
 

LudwigVonKarlsson

Fall of Pierre
Oct 17, 2013
2,867
1,871
Ottawa, ON
People here claimed that Karlsson didn't deserve the norris unless his team was in the playoffs, and now with the sens in the playoffs they still say that he doesn't deserve it and that Hammond was the only reason that we did make it. Funny stuff.
 

Lenerdosy

Registered User
Feb 23, 2015
584
179
How does Karlsson win the Norris when his coach doesn't even play him on the PK unless he has to? Isn't a defencemans first job, oh I don't know... defence?
 

SouthWest

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Apr 16, 2013
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Canada
How does Karlsson win the Norris when his coach doesn't even play him on the PK unless he has to? Isn't a defencemans first job, oh I don't know... defence?

No,

Again, this is the most moronic thought process ever...

A defenseman's job, no different than any position, is to win hockey games. Plain and simple.

If Karlsson helps Ottawa win games by being utilized more often at 5v5 or on the PP, what difference should that make?

hypothetically, player X is on for 10 goals for and 9 against, is more valuable than a player Y that doesn't get a single goal against yet also does not score a point.
 

SouthWest

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Apr 16, 2013
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107
Canada
Nice hyperbole, but we've been over this. Karlsson had 12 points in 12 games in the month before Hammond's first start and yet Ottawa was 4-6-2 in that span. If Karlsson "took it upon himself both offensively and defensively to get his team out of the losing trend." why didn't their record improve in that month before Hammond was in net?

Who cares, this is why this whole debate is ridiculous.

Ottawa has just as much thanks for both of Karlsson and Hammond and the rest of their entire team for making the playoffs. The norris isn't about any of that however, it isn't about the most valuable defender, its about the best defender.

The montreal fans basing their argument against karlsson because of Hammond is rich though, the same fan base that claims that the Canadiens would be a lottery team without price in net....

So which one is it?
 

Purity*

Registered User
Jan 29, 2010
8,446
1
Who cares, this is why this whole debate is ridiculous.

Ottawa has just as much thanks for both of Karlsson and Hammond and the rest of their entire team for making the playoffs. The norris isn't about any of that however, it isn't about the most valuable defender, its about the best defender.

The montreal fans basing their argument against karlsson because of Hammond is rich though, the same fan base that claims that the Canadiens would be a lottery team without price in net....

So which one is it?

Double standards everywhere lmfao
 

c3z4r

Registered User
Jul 4, 2011
6,247
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in the world
The scoring chances data is from every game, you can go to the individual game data on there site and look at it game by game. If you look at the link I provided on defining scoring chances, you can see it's data driven, and doesn't have any reason why it would only be tracked for 6 teams. Their pass tracking data (that blurb about Scoring Chance Shot Attempts Generated) is limited to 6 teams, probably because they manually track it instead of being able to scrape it from game sheets.

Appologies for not addressing this last time you brought it up, I must have missed it.

Alright, that's good to know. From his blog post I understood that they mainly track those 6 teams, so I was doubting the legitimacy of their stats.
 

SilverSeven

Registered User
Apr 16, 2007
21,503
1
Ottawa, Ontario
Imagine how good Karlsson would look partnered with Markov and with Price behind him. Oh boy.

Ive heard that Patches should win the Hart, Price should win the Hart and Vezina, and Markov has played well enough to win the Norris. The Sens are garbage and irrelevant, but their by far best player shouldnt win the Norris over Subban, who evidently plays with a cast of the greatest players to ever lace them up.
 

Ten88Nineteen

Registered User
May 22, 2011
916
1
Who cares, this is why this whole debate is ridiculous.

Ottawa has just as much thanks for both of Karlsson and Hammond and the rest of their entire team for making the playoffs. The norris isn't about any of that however, it isn't about the most valuable defender, its about the best defender.

The montreal fans basing their argument against karlsson because of Hammond is rich though, the same fan base that claims that the Canadiens would be a lottery team without price in net....

So which one is it?

:laugh:

I'm not a Montreal fan, nor am I arguing on behalf of their players in this thread.

For the third strike, I was responding to a poster who argued that Karlsson should win based on the fact he carried the team on his back to make the playoffs. I actually agree with you that the Norris is for the best defenseman, not the MVP out of them.

Of course if you had actually read the entire conversation you were attempting to respond to, you'd know all of this...
 

jacks*

Registered User
Mar 29, 2013
11,311
3
No,

Again, this is the most moronic thought process ever...

A defenseman's job, no different than any position, is to win hockey games. Plain and simple.

If Karlsson helps Ottawa win games by being utilized more often at 5v5 or on the PP, what difference should that make?

hypothetically, player X is on for 10 goals for and 9 against, is more valuable than a player Y that doesn't get a single goal against yet also does not score a point.

So are you saying that a plus 21 >>>>>plus 7?:amazed:
 

TheSubbanator76

Registered User
Oct 13, 2014
73
0
How does Karlsson win the Norris when his coach doesn't even play him on the PK unless he has to? Isn't a defencemans first job, oh I don't know... defence?

Haven't you heard? The Norris is awarded based on points and popularity now, forget objective reasoning.. KEERRRRLSON!!!
 

Chimpradamus

Registered User
Feb 16, 2006
16,634
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Northern Sweden
Who cares, this is why this whole debate is ridiculous.

Ottawa has just as much thanks for both of Karlsson and Hammond and the rest of their entire team for making the playoffs. The norris isn't about any of that however, it isn't about the most valuable defender, its about the best defender.

The montreal fans basing their argument against karlsson because of Hammond is rich though, the same fan base that claims that the Canadiens would be a lottery team without price in net....

So which one is it?
It's extremely hilarious! These few Habs fans, who repeatedly make these arguments against Karlsson (Hammond in net, Methot as his partner and Stone scoring goals), don't understand what an extremely double edged argument that is to throw out in favour of Subban.

If Karlsson shouldn't win the Norris because he plays with Hammond, Methot and Stone, Subban who plays with Price, Markov and Parcioretty shouldn't even be mentioned in the Norris discussions.
 
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TheNewEra

Registered User
Jul 10, 2013
7,943
3,316
Not if you adjust for Karlsson being at 71.835% and the refs being bought by Montreal. :laugh:

so subban gets points on the powerplay, but subban dives to get powerplays should we adjust for that as well:laugh:

see we can throw out stupid comments too, but at least this holds some relevance
 

wingnutks

Registered User
Nov 17, 2011
6,737
2,517
Do people mostly look at points for Norris?
I will throw a crazy odd ball player out there lol.

There is only one defenseman in the NHL that has played over 1000 minutes this season, and at 5v5 is in the top 15 for all these catagories:

points
points/60
Goals For%
Corsi%
Fenwick%
Goals Against/60
 

DJyellow

Registered User
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May 9, 2002
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Both Subban and Karlsson are deserving finalists.

I do think that Karlsson's play the last few months will give him the edge over the other finalists
 

strongbad

Registered User
Apr 22, 2007
322
0
Who cares, this is why this whole debate is ridiculous.

Ottawa has just as much thanks for both of Karlsson and Hammond and the rest of their entire team for making the playoffs. The norris isn't about any of that however, it isn't about the most valuable defender, its about the best defender.

The montreal fans basing their argument against karlsson because of Hammond is rich though, the same fan base that claims that the Canadiens would be a lottery team without price in net....

So which one is it?

Good points all around. :handclap:
 

Micklebot

Moderator
Apr 27, 2010
53,859
31,079
Uh, you basically just said exactly the same thing I did.

I know you're trying to use this only as an example of how good Karlsson is, but you know as well as I do that he had an equally bad first half and that the trophy shouldn't be about how well you performed for one particular stretch of the year.

The argument I was responding to claimed Karlsson was most responsible for Ottawa making the playoffs, and should get Norris votes because of it. If this is true, why - with Karlsson's dominant performance - was Ottawa still struggling until Hammond entered the fray?

Just so we're clear:

1) If Karlsson wasn't bad in the first ~20 games (which btw isn't half a season, Karlsson being bad for the first half is one of the bigger myths going around), there would be no debate. His level of play from the start of December onward has him as one of the leading candidates dispite an atrocious start. People aren't suggesting Karlsson should win because he had the highest peak, they are suggesting that his peak makes up for the valley and propels him into contention. Some posters might be going a little overboard to suggest he's a lock now that the team made the playoffs, but imo this will be one of the closest Norris votes in history.

2) Teams can struggle to get wins when they are subject to horrible goaltending. The team sv% during the 12 game stretch you identified was around 90.3% and that number bolstered by games against Edm, Buffalo and Arizona. So the reality is you suggesting Karlsson can't be the main reason because he wasn't the last change that happened. Truth is, Karlsson was carrying the team and they lost in spite of it for those 12 games. Of course other players were playing well during the run, you need more than one player to get those kind of results, but you've done nothing to disprove that Karlsson was the driving force. If your complaint is somebody exagerated, welcome to the internet. You've done your share aswell, I'm sure.

All this to say, I don't think the sens making the playoffs should affect Norris voting, though I'm sure it does, and I don't think without either Hammond, or Karlsson's performance over that stretch the sens make the playoffs. Maybe a healthy Anderson would have been enough, he did have a .927 sv% before breaking his finger against Toronto and playing injured afterwards, or maybe not. But your argument boils down to Karlsson can't have been the main reason because somebody else was also very good. Well, it takes a lot of things going right to have that kind of run, the last change isn't automatically the biggest one, it can be the one that puts them over the hump though.

This is such a tired talking point. Even for fans who don't ever watch any hockey other than their own team, if they would ever look at anything other than point totals they would see Doughty had continuously performed all season long. He had another amazing season despite the issues LA had with their D corps which forced him to average 29 minutes a game (his career average had been somewhere just over 25).

Those minutes, by the way, were not easy ones. He played an average of 2:38 shorthanded (Weber 2:27, Josi 2:26, Subban 2:09, Karlsson 0:33), 22:54 even strength (the only player within even a minute of this is Suter, who played less games overall), and had a higher corsi rel qoc (played against the best players on the opposing team more often) than any of the top candidates other than Josi/Weber.

But yes, I know, it's easier just to follow the usual: point total lower than other defensemen -> team missed playoffs -> not a good season. This type of mentality is why the Norris has been called into question again and again over the years, because many of the voters fall into the same trap.

He also has the lowest raw Corsi QOC, the 2nd lowest TOI%QOC (meaning he faces players who get less of their teams total icetime on average that other candidates do). Had the highest OZ start% too (I've shown earlier in this thread a more detailed breakdown of the advantage dmen get from zone starts, Doughty doesn't stand out from Karlsson or Subban one way or the other tbh).

I'm not a big fan of QOC stats as their effect on the aggregate is greatly exagerated by the masses, and zone starts are probably one of the more misunderstood stats out there, so I won't try an suggest Doughty had "soft deployment" just point out that he also wasn't getting some sort of super tough deployment that no other Noris candidate did.

As for the issues with LA's D corps, Ottawa would gladly swap situations with LA this season. Doughty's supporting D corps minus Voynov is still far better than Karlsson's minus Methot (lets be honest, maybe even with Methot too).
 

Sting

Registered User
Feb 8, 2004
7,917
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So are you saying that a plus 21 >>>>>plus 7?:amazed:

Welcome back jacks.

He makes a good point here: the plus/minus stat is a good measure of a player's defensive capabilities.

Thus, I crown the Norris trophy winner to be none other than Jay Garrison! Congratulations on your first win, and here's to many more, considering you play on Tampa Bay.
 

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