Norris Discussion III

[spiny norman]

Please continue.

Part II: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1866483

Click to read more...

 

[ottawa]

#Subban4Norris

 

[ottawa]

Just kidding...seriously though, if the sens can make it to the playoffs I think EK is deserving of it

 

[GreatStateofHockey]

Just kidding...seriously though, if the sens can make it to the playoffs I think EK is deserving of it

I agree with that. It seems that if he leads Ottawa to the playoffs it could set him apart from the other contenders wether others agree or not. On a side note, thank you for being a trusted non bias poster. I see your opinion around here a lot, and it is very objective.

 

[Proust*]

In this boring, low scoring era, I think NHL writers will recognize that awards need to be bestowed on players who electrify, dazzle and elevate this potentially beautiful game to soaring levels of awe and spectacle.

Consistency and dependability are fine. Coaches like those traits. We like them in our cars and in our phones. Let those players be there for us when the Karlssons of the world have the night off from making gorgeous music on the ice.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Giordano!

Right now it goes to Erik Karlsson

Id say Subban should probably get it though. IF he gets sixty points

If he doesnt do anything in the last two it should go to Karlsson

Actually.. It doesnt matter. If Ott makes the playoffs it Should go to Karlsson. He led them. with Hammond.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

In this boring, low scoring era, I think NHL writers will recognize that awards need to be bestowed on players who electrify, dazzle and elevate this potentially beautiful game to soaring levels of awe and spectacle.

Consistency and dependability are fine. Coaches like those traits. We like them in our cars and in our phones. Let those players be there for us when the Karlssons of the world have the night off from making gorgeous music on the ice.

The Norris is the best 2way dman.. Not the Best Odman

Though it has been that way since Lidstroms last year.

Karlsson only has a +six and he gets that because of his offense.

Im not saying he shouldnt get it. But your saying he should get it right now just because He can dangle and score. from what im getting off those words

 

[Non Player Canadiens]

that EK gif is beautiful though

 

[Proust*]

The Norris is the best 2way dman.. Not the Best Odman

Though it has been that way since Lidstroms last year.

Karlsson only has a +six and he gets that because of his offense.

Im not saying he shouldnt get it. But your saying he should get it right now just because He can dangle and score. from what im getting off those words

that EK gif is beautiful though

Exactly.

 

[JFG]

The Norris is the best 2way dman.. Not the Best Odman

Though it has been that way since Lidstroms last year.

Karlsson only has a +six and he gets that because of his offense.

Im not saying he shouldnt get it. But your saying he should get it right now just because He can dangle and score. from what im getting off those words

The Norris is for the best player who is playing at the position defenseman.

 

[DL44]

Karlsson for the win, please...

Most dynamic game changing Dman this league has.

No Dman needs to be game planned for by the opposition more than Karlsson... As evidenced by him being the coaches' selection on the poll McKenzie did..

He is head n shoulders the most fun dman to watch...

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

The Norris is the best 2way dman.. Not the Best Odman

Though it has been that way since Lidstroms last year.

Karlsson only has a +six and he gets that because of his offense.

Im not saying he shouldnt get it. But your saying he should get it right now just because He can dangle and score. from what im getting off those words

I never get this argument. Say Josi fits that criteria. If you flipped him and Karlsson, who has the better impact on their respective new teams? Karlsson? Then he's a better a defenseman this season. Just because his strength is offense doesn't discredit him anymore than it did Subban's clutch powerplay production did when he won.

 

[CoachBrisebois]

I never get this argument. Say Josi fits that criteria. If you flipped him and Karlsson, who has the better impact on their respective new teams? Karlsson? Then he's a better a defenseman this season. Just because his strength is offense doesn't discredit him anymore than it did Subban's clutch powerplay production did when he won.

The difference is that Subban is good defensively. Thats the same difference between Karlsson and any other player mentioned, they play defence, Karlsson doesnt. The year Karlsson won, he scored so many points that he made up for that difference. He hasnt done that this year.

 

[ottawa]

Karlsson for the win, please...

Most dynamic game changing Dman this league has.

No Dman needs to be game planned for by the opposition more than Karlsson... As evidenced by him being the coaches' selection on the poll McKenzie did..

He is head n shoulders the most fun dman to watch...

I wouldn't say he's head and shoulders ahead of every one but he's definitely dynamic and he's been a huge part in the sens' resurgence. Definitely wasn't surprised to see him lead in the coaches poll...I personally hope he wins it if the sens make the playoffs.

And I know this is really unfair to say (sorry sens fans), but if the sens miss the playoffs then I don't think he should win it, and that's not to say all his effort went to waste simply because the sens missed the playoffs by a point or two. What I mean to say by that is if a Norris winning defenseman is truly 'heads and shoulders above everyone else' like you said, then his team should be in the playoffs to begin with, especially when you have a team like the sens that didn't have many key injuries (goaltenders aside).

I think the sens missing the playoffs by literally a point or two could be the difference between EK getting his 2nd Norris or not, could be a highly debated topic this off-season depending on how it goes.

I agree with that. It seems that if he leads Ottawa to the playoffs it could set him apart from the other contenders wether others agree or not. On a side note, thank you for being a trusted non bias poster. I see your opinion around here a lot, and it is very objective.

I think a lot of people would disagree with you but thanks, very kind of you!

 

[Dick Whitman]

I think Karlsson and Subban winning the norris shows that the voters value dmen who can play a 200-foot game. Neither are ever going to be mistaken for Chris Pronger in their own end but they're capable defenders and explosive offensively in an era where offence is at a premium.

 

[ottawa]

It's easy to rag on his defensive skills (which I personally think are exaggerated, just like Subban), but him pulling off **** like this shows he brings far more offensively than he costs his team defensively, again, just like Subban.

I think EK's lack of PK time could hurt him though

1a. EK
1b. Subban (call me a homer, idc)
1c. Weber
2. Doughty
3. Josi/Keith
4. Keith/Josi

HM: Letang (injuries)

And if Sens miss, then Weber wins

 

[Canadiens Ghost]

I don't get the argument of Karlsson deserving the Norris if the Sens make the playoffs but doesn't deserve it if the Sens get eliminated. If you are the best at your position, you are the best regardless of the performance of your team.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

I don't get the argument of Karlsson deserving the Norris if the Sens make the playoffs but doesn't deserve it if the Sens get eliminated. If you are the best at your position, you are the best regardless of the performance of your team.

True but I think people are saying this because the Norris has never went to a defender who's team hasn't made the playoffs.

That could change though since Bobrovsky I believe was first goalie to win Vezina who's team did not make playoffs as well.

 

[Frank Drebin]

I don't get the argument of Karlsson deserving the Norris if the Sens make the playoffs but doesn't deserve it if the Sens get eliminated. If you are the best at your position, you are the best regardless of the performance of your team.

I get where you are coming from, especially when we are at the 80/81 game mark and Ottawa is still very much in the playoff picture.

 

[ottawa]

I don't get the argument of Karlsson deserving the Norris if the Sens make the playoffs but doesn't deserve it if the Sens get eliminated. If you are the best at your position, you are the best regardless of the performance of your team.

I know, it's a dumb argument I made and I'll be the first to admit it and I won't even deny it if anyone else repeats what you just echoed...but ReginKarlssonLehner kind of explains what i'm saying.

Historically no non-playoff defender has won the Norris...closes results:

53-54: Bill Gadsby - 3rd in voting - CHI finished 6th
58-59: Bill Gadsby - 2nd in voting -NYR finished 5th
58-59: Marcel Pronovost - 3rd in voting - DET finished 6th
66-67: Bobby Orr - 3rd in voting - BOS finished 6th
67-68: Tim Horton - 3rd in voting - TOR finished 5th in East
13-14: Shea Weber - 3rd in voting - NSH finished 6th in Central

I don't see this changing this year...I think the common reason (can't prove it) behind this is if a defender is truly the best, then he should be able to carry his team into the playoffs if they're not already a playoff team.

True but I think people are saying this because the Norris has never went to a defender who's team hasn't made the playoffs.

That could change though since Bobrovsky I believe was first goalie to win Vezina who's team did not make playoffs as well.

Thanks, that's kind of what I was leaning for but you said it better. I think it could change this year too, especially with what the coaches poll suggested last week.

 

[Frank Drebin]

I think Karlsson and Subban winning the norris shows that the voters value dmen who can play a 200-foot game. Neither are ever going to be mistaken for Chris Pronger in their own end but they're capable defenders and explosive offensively in an era where offence is at a premium.

Yep. A good defensive team system can make up for the lack of a big brute crease clearing defenseman, but you can't coach EK's end to end rushes or PK's one timer.

 

[Frank Drebin]

I don't see this changing this year...I think the common reason (can't prove it) behind this is if a defender is truly the best, then he should be able to carry his team into the playoffs if they're not already a playoff team.

I wonder if it makes sense if I put it this way:

The award doesn't necessarily go to the best player, it goes to the player who had the best season. I don't think anyone in 2013 truly thought that PK Subban was the best defenseman in the world, but it was hard to argue that anyone had a better season than him.

You can't possibly have the best season if your team didn't make the playoffs, unless you did something truly spectacular. IDK, just a thought.

For the record: I think EK is the best defenseman in the league and should win it (ir)regardless.

 

[JFG]

I don't get the argument of Karlsson deserving the Norris if the Sens make the playoffs but doesn't deserve it if the Sens get eliminated. If you are the best at your position, you are the best regardless of the performance of your team.

I agree with you but in a race as close as this that can be a narrative that works against him.

 

[ottawa]

I wonder if it makes sense if I put it this way:

The award doesn't necessarily go to the best player, it goes to the player who had the best season. I don't think anyone in 2013 truly thought that PK Subban was the best defenseman in the world, but it was hard to argue that anyone had a better season than him.

You can't possibly have the best season if your team didn't make the playoffs, unless you did something truly spectacular. IDK, just a thought.

I mostly agree...I personally think the Norris is a combination of 3 (probably equally) factors:

1. Best season (surpassing own expectations)
2. Best player (in comparison to other defenders)
3. External factors (team ranking in standings, value to team, etc.)

Looking at EK alone based on these criteria, I could also look at PK and Weber (my personal top 3) but I'm too lazy.

Karlsson
1. He surpassed expectations in the sense no one thought he would pick up his season the way he did after his average at best first two months. I think his turn around was huge ever since Camerson took over too.
2. The offensive gap between him and the next defender is an entire 8 points, like I said earlier, factor that with his poor start and that is really impressive how he climbed the ladder and became #1. I think his poor defensive skills are exaggerated too, he's far from being amongst the best in the league but he's very far from being average too (so somewhere in the middle) and his offense makes up for the gap between the top defensive defensemen (2013-14 Suter type) and EK
3. His value to the team is sky high, he's been a driving force in their resurgence and a leader throughout...but his team isn't a playoff team yet, so you could argue that all that effort came a little too late or wasn't worth it since his team won't be making it to the dance, unlike the other top defenders.

If anyone was bored enough to read my posts based on those 3 criteria, thoughts? what's missing or what might need tweaking.

 

[Agent Zub]

I mostly agree...I personally think the Norris is a combination of 3 (probably equally) factors:

1. Best season (surpassing own expectations)
2. Best player (in comparison to other defenders)
3. External factors (team ranking in standings, value to team, etc.)

Looking at EK alone based on these criteria, I could also look at PK and Weber (my personal top 3) but I'm too lazy.

Karlsson
1. He surpassed expectations in the sense no one thought he would pick up his season the way he did after his average at best first two months. I think his turn around was huge ever since Camerson took over too.
2. The offensive gap between him and the next defender is an entire 8 points, like I said earlier, factor that with his poor start and that is really impressive how he climbed the ladder and became #1. I think his poor defensive skills are exaggerated too, he's far from being amongst the best in the league but he's very far from being average too (so somewhere in the middle) and his offense makes up for the gap between the top defensive defensemen (2013-14 Suter type) and EK
3. His value to the team is sky high, he's been a driving force in their resurgence and a leader throughout...but his team isn't a playoff team yet, so you could argue that all that effort came a little too late or wasn't worth it since his team won't be making it to the dance, unlike the other top defenders.

If anyone was bored enough to read my posts based on those 3 criteria, thoughts? what's missing or what might need tweaking.

I think if Ottawa misses by one point, should that really take away from the season he has had? I don't think one lousy team point should be the difference between likely winning Norris and not winning Norris.