Nolan Patrick, Part 2

[bobbythebrain]

Nah.

McDavid
Kopitar
MacKinnon
Seguin
Crosby
Malkin
Tavares
Matthews

If you trade Coots for Stamkos, Bergeron, Toews, Getz, Kuznetsov, Backstrom at this point you're losing.

Barkov

 

[baudib1]

Bergeron is super Couturier’s in my opinion, so I don’t know how you could possibly lose that exchange. I’d take established point producers in Stamkos, Backstrom, Kuznetsov, Getzlaf, etc over Coots who’s had one great offensive season, and 6 mediocre offensive ones any day of the week. I’d consider having both Barkov and O’Reilly better then Coots as well

Couturier is Bergeron. The past two years their games played/point totals are nearly identical and Couturier only played one season with top-line wingers. There's no reason to take Bergeron over Couturier defensively either. You can make a case for Barkov, but O'Reilly is laughable.

 

[johum7]

Hes a Selke Candidate coming off of a 76 point season. Unless you dont value defensive play at all?

Don’t get me wrong, Coots put on an amazing defensive performance all year long, enough to have me place him on my top 3 for the Selke. I’m just saying that I’d prefer 100% proven offensive players like Crosby, McDavid, Kopitar, Bergeron, MacKinnon, Seguin, Tavares, etc, over Couturier, who’s had one great season, compared to 6 average ones.

Defence is the most important part of hockey imo. Nothing will move me on that stance unless a team full of Ryan Merkley’s and Jake Gardiner’s manages to win the cup

 

[Rebels57]

Don’t get me wrong, Coots put on an amazing defensive performance all year long, enough to have me place him on my top 3 for the Selke. I’m just saying that I’d prefer 100% proven offensive players like Crosby, McDavid, Kopitar, Bergeron, MacKinnon, Seguin, Tavares, etc, over Couturier, who’s had one great season, compared to 6 average ones.

Defence is the most important part of hockey imo. Nothing will move me on that stance unless a team full of Ryan Merkley’s and Jake Gardiner’s manages to win the cup

I can respect your stance that you want to see Couturier repeat that performance before elevating him into a tier with more proven #1 Centers.

Getzlaf, while still productive, is past his prime. O'Reilly is a terrible 5v5 producer and an overrated player in general that is not in Couturiers tier.

Scheifele is better than half the guys listed too.

 

[Rebels57]

McDavid
Crosby
Malkin
Kopitar
Bergeron
Scheifele
Tavares

Those are the only Centers id have ranked ahead of Coots when factoring in all-around play.

The next tier for me would be, in no particular order

Coots
Barkov
Seguin
Kuznetsov
Matthews
Eichel
MacKinnon

 

[johum7]

Couturier is Bergeron. The past two years their games played/point totals are nearly identical and Couturier only played one season with top-line wingers. There's no reason to take Bergeron over Couturier defensively either. You can make a case for Barkov, but O'Reilly is laughable.

The Couturier-Bergeron isn’t all that close imo, but you make a good point of Coots being with top players for one season. Switch their roles entirely (Coots to Boston on top line w/ Marchand and Pastrnak and Bergeron to Philly with G and TK), I still think Bergeron our performs Coots.

O’Reilly is closer to Coots then many think. Is he a defensive god? No, but he’s solid enough to trust in late game situations. He’s statistically close to Coots offensively, even though he’s on a much worse team.

 

[deadhead]

Almost every NHL fans overrates offense compared to defense, probably because how many defensive highlights have you ever seen on ESPN or NHL Network?
That's one reason for advanced stats like xGF%, because points scored are everywhere, but the real question is after you strip out goalies, how many offensive opportunities are you creating v the ones you're preventing.

Couts is a top 10 center because a great defensive center only has to be a good scorer to be elite, and he merely amassed 62 ES points at age 25.
Nor was this a fluke, his PP/60 was slightly higher in 2017-18, but it was the increase in minutes (and playing 82 games) that was responsible for his point totals.
Couts is not an elite scorer, but he's a very good offensive player who is close to an elite defensive player - and that's a rare combination.

However, in 3 years Patrick will be better than Couts, faster, more athletic, better eye to hand coordination, better passer, with similar defensive instincts and the desire to play a two way game. He's the bionic Couts: "we can make him bigger, faster with a better shot . . . "

 

[deadhead]

McDavid
Crosby
Malkin
Kopitar
Bergeron
Scheifele
Tavares

Those are the only Centers id have ranked ahead of Coots when factoring in all-around play.

The next tier for me would be, in no particular order

Coots
Barkov
Seguin
Kuznetsov
Matthews
Eichel
MacKinnon

I would not have JT ahead of Couts, JT is a mediocre defensive player who averages 50 ES points a year.
Bergeron once upon a time, but I think Couts has passed him.
Maybe Scheifele. Matthews on pure talent.
But I think Couts has a strong case for the top ten.

 

[johum7]

I can respect your stance that you want to see Couturier repeat that performance before elevating him into a tier with more proven #1 Centers.

Getzlaf, while still productive, is past his prime. O'Reilly is a terrible 5v5 producer and an overrated player in general that is not in Couturiers tier.

Scheifele is better than half the guys listed too.

Coots in my eyes in a border line 1C. If he repeats is season, and maybe improves on it, then he’ll probably push himself into the “for sure #1 C tier”.

I see O’Reilly as overrated, but more as an overpay then anything. He’s making 7.500 and put up 50 some points on the worst team in the NHL. If you give him a supporting cast, then I could see him put up some sneaky good numbers offensively.

 

[Rebels57]

Coots in my eyes in a border line 1C. If he repeats is season, and maybe improves on it, then he’ll probably push himself into the “for sure #1 C tier”.

I see O’Reilly as overrated, but more as an overpay then anything. He’s making 7.500 and put up 50 some points on the worst team in the NHL. If you give him a supporting cast, then I could see him put up some sneaky good numbers offensively.

You just said Couturier might be a top 15 center. Now hes a borderline 1C?

Couturier is a 1C

It shouldnt even be up for debate

Im going to bed

 

[johum7]

You just said Couturier might be a top 15 center. Now hes a borderline 1C?

Couturier is a 1C

It shouldnt even be up for debate

Im going to bed

Compared to the others listed, and offensive production over their careers, Coots is not entirely on their levels. This past season Coots was top 20 for sure, and depending on the want, top 15, and was a 1C. Coots has a near elite 2 way game, I just want to see him put up consistent 70+ point seasons before putting him permanently in the 1C group

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

McDavid
Crosby
Malkin
Kopitar
Bergeron
Scheifele
Tavares

Those are the only Centers id have ranked ahead of Coots when factoring in all-around play.

The next tier for me would be, in no particular order

Coots
Barkov
Seguin
Kuznetsov
Matthews
Eichel
MacKinnon

They’re both older with being over 30 but Backstrom & Getzlaf still play at a really high level.

 

[bobbythebrain]

Almost every NHL fans overrates offense compared to defense, probably because how many defensive highlights have you ever seen on ESPN or NHL Network?
That's one reason for advanced stats like xGF%, because points scored are everywhere, but the real question is after you strip out goalies, how many offensive opportunities are you creating v the ones you're preventing.

Couts is a top 10 center because a great defensive center only has to be a good scorer to be elite, and he merely amassed 62 ES points at age 25.
Nor was this a fluke, his PP/60 was slightly higher in 2017-18, but it was the increase in minutes (and playing 82 games) that was responsible for his point totals.
Couts is not an elite scorer, but he's a very good offensive player who is close to an elite defensive player - and that's a rare combination.

However, in 3 years Patrick will be better than Couts, faster, more athletic, better eye to hand coordination, better passer, with similar defensive instincts and the desire to play a two way game. He's the bionic Couts: "we can make him bigger, faster with a better shot . . . "

Nope. Love Patrick but Coots is in that unspoken tier of knowing how to cut off plays. You also forget Coots was forced into a defensive role, where he spent years expected to do just that. He had years to hone in on that

Patrick is already being tasked with 2nd line C, so he likely doesn't get that leeway to strictly defend

Watching Coots forecheck and then let up only anticipate/force a play that he reads, that is something entirely different

Again, Patrick should be a stud but what players like Coots and Barkov do, that is pretty inate

 

[Jtown]

McDavid
Crosby
Malkin
Kopitar
Bergeron
Scheifele
Tavares

Those are the only Centers id have ranked ahead of Coots when factoring in all-around play.

The next tier for me would be, in no particular order

Coots
Barkov
Seguin
Kuznetsov
Matthews
Eichel
MacKinnon

i would trade coots 1 for 1 for any of those players mentioned. All those players can atleast say they are the best player on their line of in seguin's case, have had years where they are better. Not COOTS. Coots had a brillant season. Guess what he may not even be our best center this next year. We don't know. Coots is an invaluable piece to a winning organization, but please lets not go overboard with hyperbole here.

 

[Striiker]

OFFENSIVELY, I think Patrick will be better than Couturier.

DEFENSIVELY, almost certainly not.

I’m not convinced Couts can repeat this years scoring performance, especially seeing how much his goalscoring slowed down later in the year. I think he’s more of a ~20 goal, 55-65 point guy than a 30+ goal, 70+ point guy.

Hopefully I’m wrong, but I can’t imagine him hitting 30 or 70 again.

 

[Rebels57]

OFFENSIVELY, I think Patrick will be better than Couturier.

DEFENSIVELY, almost certainly not.

I’m not convinced Couts can repeat this years scoring performance, especially seeing how much his goalscoring slowed down later in the year. I think he’s more of a ~20 goal, 55-65 point guy than a 30+ goal, 70+ point guy.

Hopefully I’m wrong, but I can’t imagine him hitting 30 or 70 again.

I can see him hit 70 again

 

[FlyTimmo]

i would trade coots 1 for 1 for any of those players mentioned. All those players can atleast say they are the best player on their line of in seguin's case, have had years where they are better. Not COOTS. Coots had a brillant season. Guess what he may not even be our best center this next year. We don't know. Coots is an invaluable piece to a winning organization, but please lets not go overboard with hyperbole here.

I wouldn't trade Couturier for Seguin

 

[Jtown]

I wouldn't trade Couturier for Seguin

Ok, I think a majority of fans, executives would disagree with you.

 

[FlyTimmo]

Ok, I think a majority of fans, executives would disagree with you.

I think smart people would agree with me.

 

[Jtown]

I think smart people would agree with me.

i don't think it has to do with with being smart or not. I think it has to do with perceived value. You can't just claim that someone who disagrees with your opinion as unintelligent.

 

[FlyTimmo]

i don't think it has to do with with being smart or not. I think it has to do with perceived value. You can't just claim that someone who disagrees with your opinion as unintelligent.

Well... Couturier scored 2 less points than Seguin last year. Couturier is a selke candidate and Seguin is abysmal defensively. Couturier is a full year younger and is on one of the best contracts in the league while Seguin has 1 more year left on his deal before he gets a raise he isn't worth. Tell me why I'm wrong babe

 

[Jtown]

Well... Couturier scored 2 less points than Seguin last year. Couturier is a selke candidate and Seguin is abysmal defensively. Couturier is a full year younger and is on one of the best contracts in the league while Seguin has 1 more year left on his deal before he gets a raise he isn't worth. Tell me why I'm wrong babe

Do you believe couturier duplicates that season without having the 2nd best scorer on his line full time for a whole year? If you do then yes coots is better than seguin, If you don't then you believe seguin is better. Its as simple as that.

I have seen Seguin finish top 6 in hart voting.. I have seen him raise the play of Jamie Benn, i have seen him score at a high level consistently. Seguin has had 2 top 15 point seasons. 1 top 10 point season , and 1 top 5 point season.

 

[FlyTimmo]

Do you believe couturier duplicates that season without having the 2nd best scorer on his line full time for a whole year? If you do then yes coots is better than seguin, If you don't then you believe seguin is better. Its as simple as that.

I have seen Seguin finish top 6 in hart voting.. I have seen him raise the play of Jamie Benn, i have seen him score at a high level consistently. Seguin has had 2 top 15 point seasons. 1 top 10 point season , and 1 top 5 point season.

I don't. I think Couturier is a ~60 point player going forward. But I still have him above Seguin at that level of production.

 

[Rebels57]

Well... Couturier scored 2 less points than Seguin last year. Couturier is a selke candidate and Seguin is abysmal defensively. Couturier is a full year younger and is on one of the best contracts in the league while Seguin has 1 more year left on his deal before he gets a raise he isn't worth. Tell me why I'm wrong babe

Youre not wrong. Youre very much right. Whoever youre having this discussion with is wrong.

 

[Lotusflower]

I would trade Cout for Kuznetsov.
Bergeron/Kopitar/Couts types are great but I weight offensive production, skill, and creativity at a premium for any 1C.