No Females within NHL coaching nor Management fraternity/ Old boys Club

[The Apologist]

Except we all know that it is more difficult for them to get those opportunities there, as well.

Be real.

We agree its more difficult. Without question. So in your opinion what is the next step?

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Except we all know that it is more difficult for them to get those opportunities there, as well.

Be real.

And the lower levels tend to have even less of an oversight on this type of thing and less of a push to go in that direction.

 

[sandysan]

Lots of former players and old boys club guys get promoted into management without even finishing high school and with no management experience at all. So there is that.

Again -- how are women going to get that track record you are demanding if they are never given an opportunity even in lower leagues?

We've all admitted it is harder for women than men now. Let's take the next step.

then your beef is with the lower leagues, not the NHL.

And if the next step is to patronize women and give them a position for which they have no experience to draw from ( essentially ensuring they will fail) then please put me squarely in the "not interested" camp.

 

[The Devil In I]

Lots of former players and old boys club guys get promoted into management without even finishing high school and with no management experience at all. So there is that.

Again -- how are women going to get that track record you are demanding if they are never given an opportunity even in lower leagues?

We've all admitted it is harder for women than men now. Let's take the next step.

I believe by "step" you mean "jump". Ya know, to the conclusion you're at.

 

[BraveCanadian]

And if the next step is to patronize women and give them a position for which they have no experience to draw from ( essentially ensuring they will fail) then please put me squarely in the "not interested" camp.

There is literally no one that would push that as a solution to the problem.

 

[The Apologist]

There is literally no one that would push that as a solution to the problem.

Assuming there is, in fact, a problem.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Assuming there is, in fact, a problem.

I thought we all just agreed that there was?

Or are we going to circle back to unfair being ok?

 

[iCanada]

Lots of former players and old boys club guys get promoted into management without even finishing high school and with no management experience at all. So there is that.

Again -- how are women going to get that track record you are demanding if they are never given an opportunity even in lower leagues?

We've all admitted it is harder for women than men now. Let's take the next step.

Quite frankly there are tons of opportunities at lower levels.

Many minor league teams in Canada below top tier play are coached and run essentially by parents in their spare time because there is no one else to do it. Do that for a year maybe two part time with some success and you'd find a AAA job pretty quick. Have a few good years in AAA then you can get a Junior opportunity. Have about 5 good years in junior you can get an AHL opportunity. 10 years combined in junior / AHL and you can get an NHL opportunity.

The entry level NHL coach / executive is someone with 15 to 20 years experience.

 

[SatanwasaSlovak]

So? Women aren't leaders and wouldn't make good coaches.

 

[HBK27]

You're either ignoring or missing the point. You seem to just want to rant about the plight of white men not getting ahead for some reason.

There was no such rant – you’re just trying to dodge my point, which is that you’re just trying to chalk this up to something that it really isn’t because you can’t comprehend what the real factors are.

I think the bigger problem is that it's almost impossible for them to get the same opportunity. When each piece you need to move up is a job that only men do it's not hard to see where bias sets it. Look at being a GM, all the steps along the way mean breaking into roles that are pretty much 100% men. It doesn't mean it's impossible but it does mean it's very, very hard.

You would need a women candidate not only as good as a man but considerably better to break those barriers.

Yeah, it would certainly be tougher for women - though I think that little of that would have to do with bias setting in. There is real value in having played the game, been part of the locker room, learning under various coaches, etc. that come into play in these management roles. Unfortunately, that is an edge that nearly all of the male candidates are going to have. You also have to look at the sheer numbers – so many more men are playing hockey than women and after their playing days are done will want to continue to stay involved in the sport in their professional lives. These types of jobs also generally require a lot of relocation as you move up the ladder, which males are more likely to do. Certainly, it’s also very daunting for any woman trying to get into that field since it is so heavily male dominated. So yeah, they do have a tougher path but I truly believe that most organizations would have no problems with a woman getting the job if they are the best candidate.

 

[BraveCanadian]

So? Women aren't leaders and wouldn't make good coaches.

Oy vey.. enjoy the thread guys.

 

[Bank Shot]

Harder yes, there is no doubt. But I have no doubt that in todays society if there was someone who truly felt they deserved it and were being held back, we would know. Ibalso truly believe that if a female from one of the old guard wanted to join the NHL ranks, most of the old boy club would welcome here as they would one of the boys as the NHL seems to love their hockey families.

Do you feel there is a legitimate candidate out there currently being held back?

I don't think women can even get into a position were they feel like they are being held back. It's not like the hockey teams request people to send in their resumes for these roles.

Coaches, and other roles seem to be hand picked from a group of not more than 4-5 people. You basically have to be inside the inner circle to get one of these jobs in the first place.

 

[iCanada]

Lots of former players and old boys club guys get promoted into management without even finishing high school and with no management experience at all. So there is that.

This hurts everyone everywhere who doesn't know someone. The answer is be around for years, meet people.

NHL GM's, coaches, marketing execs, etc are around hockey circles doing their thing 24/7.

You have to be around and know someone to get there. That hurts all new blood. But its not some unattainable ivory tower, it just requires a lot of time and effort and networking.

Thats the world. Time effort and networking.

 

[The Apologist]

I thought we all just agreed that there was?

Or are we going to circle back to unfair being ok?

Nobody agreed there was a problem. We agreed it would be harder for a woman to get the experience a man applying for the same role.
It becomes a problem once the actual demand is there and women are in fact being unjustly rejected.

Do we have any examples at all of this? If there is in fact a contingent of women who are making the effort to do this and are unjustly being refused said opportunities, then let's fix it.

Thus far it really does just appear to be 'hey, we need to force the NHL to hire more women'

 

[sandysan]

There is literally no one that would push that as a solution to the problem.

I am glad to hear this, and as I said the pool of people for management positions from which the NHL draws is pretty clearly defined. if there are no women in that pool, then the fault is not with the nhl but with the leagues that stock this pool.

your beef is with the lower leagues, it aint with the NHL until there are suitable candidates that exist but who are never given the nod.

I'd love to see more women coaching and in management positions in lower leagues. but their absence at the nhl level is not symbolic of sexism, and to blame the nhl for the choices of the lower leagues seems patently unfair.

 

[HBK27]

Lots of former players and old boys club guys get promoted into management without even finishing high school and with no management experience at all. So there is that.

Though who is to say that someone with a graduate degree and management experience that’s never been around a hockey rink is any better?

Don’t discount the experience many of these guys have picked up during their 20 years or so as professional hockey players. Aside from Garth Snow, there also not just thrust into leadership positions but have more on-the-job training, not to mention counterparts to deal with some of the weaker spots in their resume.

 

[Bank Shot]

Certainly, it’s also very daunting for any woman trying to get into that field since it is so heavily male dominated. So yeah, they do have a tougher path but I truly believe that most organizations would have no problems with a woman getting the job if they are the best candidate.

Not publicly.

I work in a male dominated industry. You wouldn't believe the number of times I have heard co-workers say that they don't want to see any more females hired because they are worried they won't have the freedom to say whatever they wish, like the inside of a locker room.

It's not that they are against women, they just feel that having more women in the workplace might mean they have to censor themselves which leads to a decreased comfort level.

I'd be shocked if this attitude doesn't exist in NHL hockey circles.

 

[The Apologist]

I don't think women can even get into a position were they feel like they are being held back. It's not like the hockey teams request people to send in their resumes for these roles.

Coaches, and other roles seem to be hand picked from a group of not more than 4-5 people. You basically have to be inside the inner circle to get one of these jobs in the first place.

They have the same opportunities to start that I do.
They can play the sport. Coach house league. Move up to rep league. Do well and maybe get major junior. Then semi pro, pro etc.

Again, if they are doing so and being held back, i have no doubt we would know about it.

 

[iCanada]

Not publicly.

I work in a male dominated industry. You wouldn't believe the number of times I have heard co-workers say that they don't want to see any more females hired because they are worried they won't have the freedom to say whatever they wish, like the inside of a locker room.

It's not that they are against women, they just feel that having more women in the workplace might mean they have to censor themselves which leads to a decreased comfort level.

I'd be shocked if this attitude doesn't exist in NHL hockey circles.

I'm sure it exists, tbh. I work in male dominated industry and it is the same.

I will say though, that it just takes one guy to buck the trend though, and I think we live in a time where there is at-least one executive that would consider a female candidate equally. And even in a dinosaur industry like the energy industry, there is at least 1:1 dinosaurs to people that don't give a ****.

 

[The Apologist]

Not publicly.

I work in a male dominated industry. You wouldn't believe the number of times I have heard co-workers say that they don't want to see any more females hired because they are worried they won't have the freedom to say whatever they wish, like the inside of a locker room.

It's not that they are against women, they just feel that having more women in the workplace might mean they have to censor themselves which leads to a decreased comfort level.

I'd be shocked if this attitude doesn't exist in NHL hockey circles.

Not to really get into that debate but I work in a female dominated industry and literally hear the same type of comments every day, except they generally don't feel the need to censor themselves.

I am absolutely certain it exists in the NHL.
The question is whether the demand is there and whos responsibility the solution is.

Can anyone verify that the demand is in fact there?

 

[sandysan]

Not publicly.

I work in a male dominated industry. You wouldn't believe the number of times I have heard co-workers say that they don't want to see any more females hired because they are worried they won't have the freedom to say whatever they wish, like the inside of a locker room.

It's not that they are against women, they just feel that having more women in the workplace might mean they have to censor themselves which leads to a decreased comfort level.

I'd be shocked if this attitude doesn't exist in NHL hockey circles.

the nhl already knows that they " can't say whatever they wish" ( see Getzlaf and shaw and others).

and from a league that has guys like lou as a GM, I'm sure the players have lots of things they would like to do but aren't allowed to, but guess who carries the bigger stick ?

its not the perfect example ( and its no longer feasible) but there are no looming pat summits for hockey, women of distinction who clearly have an established track record as a coach. Until that changes, the expectation that the NHL should somehow circumvent the traditional path in order to correct the decisions of lower leagues that the NHL was not party to seems woefully misplaced.

 

[Bank Shot]

They have the same opportunities to start that I do.
They can play the sport. Coach house league. Move up to rep league. Do well and maybe get major junior. Then semi pro, pro etc.

Again, if they are doing so and being held back, i have no doubt we would know about it.

If you don't believe there is resistance to allowing females into male dominated industries, I think you are probably a little naive.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

I'm a game developer who used to work at studios of over 200+ men with no females.

It changes, really fast and it happens overnight.

The arguments back then were:
Women don't play videogames.
Women don't code.
Women don't draw.

Within 10 years some of the brightest and most talented developers are females. Several major studios are headed by women.

Last year's Game of the Year (Uncharted 4) was written by a woman, and several key positions were held by women.

I also teach part time (3D Character Art).
When I started teaching 7 years ago, it was all-boys. The arguments were "Boys grow up reading comics, and copying them at a young age, to develop technical skills.
Last semester there were more females than males, and they were really *** good. Turns out more and more women are enrolling in engineering, and programming as well.


I think hockey will get there eventually. If we give it time. Some bright talented women will break in, and it will change everything.

I still think some visibly minorities, and gays might make it there before, but it'll get there.

 

[The Apologist]

If you don't believe there is resistance to allowing females into male dominated industries, I think you are probably a little naive.

Where was this said? Pretty sure I even mentioned I believe it would be harder. What I also said was that if in fact it was a problem in 2017, someone somewhere would be reporting it. This is the age of social media, you cant even have a conversation in your own bedroom without someone blowing it up.

Does anyone at all have any examples?

 

[The Apologist]

I'm a game developer who used to work at studios of over 200+ men with no females.

It changes, really fast and it happens overnight.

The arguments back then were:
Women don't play videogames.
Women don't code.
Women don't draw.

Within 10 years some of the brightest and most talented developers are females. Several major studios are headed by women.

Last year's Game of the Year (Uncharted 4) was written by a woman, and several key positions were held by women.

I also teach part time (3D Character Art).
When I started teaching 7 years ago, it was all-boys. The arguments were "Boys grow up reading comics, and copying them at a young age, to develop technical skills.
Last semester there were more females than males, and they were really *** good. Turns out more and more women are enrolling in engineering, and programming as well.


I think hockey will get there eventually. If we give it time. Some bright talented women will break in, and it will change everything.

I still think some visibly minorities, and gays might make it there before, but it'll get there.

I agree. Its only a matter of time. Best coach I ever had in both baseball and hockey was female.