Player Discussion Nikolay Goldobin

[Askel]

Pettersson has played RW or C this entire year(almost played some LW at WJC), I know he shoots left, but he looks better on RW. If hes not a center he should be the 2nd line RW IMO

 

[Canucks1096]

That was the big problem with signing guys like Eriksson, Gagner and Del Zotto to term contracts in the first place....they're basically in the way of kids like Goldy, Dahlen, Lind, Virtanen, Juolevi and Gadjovich.....maybe there's a chance Jimbo can move them, but not holding my breath.

You want to move out those older guys for some prospects that never even played a nhl game before? A rebuild is not just about putting all those young players all the roster. They need to be ready. Chances at least half of them are not even ready yet and probably won't be for at least another few years.

I Remember a few years ago a few people on this forum wanted to trade Bonino for a draft pick so they can make room for Cassels.

Also if you make room for all those prospects. That means when there are injuries you are not going to call up a prospects because you don't have anybody in Utica. It's going to be like last season when Dorset and Hansen are out for most of the season. Canucks had to call up Megna and Chaput. Those two stay with the Canucks the whole year. You want a full season of Megna and Chaput?

Even with those contracts there are still going to be room for a few rookies

 

[Canucks1096]

Seems more like asomething coaching issue to me. Now that Goldy isnt afraid of being benched for every mistake he plays with more confidence.

Let the kids make some mistakes and learn from them instead of playing Brandon Sutter 20mins a night.

Having Sutter around helps the development of the younger players. Sutter starts 75% of his faceoffs in the defensive zone. This lets Horvat to play easier minutes. With easier Minutes it help Horvat concentrate on offence. Without Sutter I don't think Horvat is on a 60 point pace this season. If Horvat plays easier mins, that mean Boeser plays easier mins as well because he is Horvat linemates.

It's kind of like Kesler had one of his best season when Manny was taking on the harder matchup

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

It's fascinating to me that "Sutter is the new Malhotra!" gets repeated without evidence.

Malhotra 1) played less, 2) got buried even deeper defensively than Sutter did, 3) was way more effective than Sutter at suppressing shots and goals against.

Sutter is the 3rd-most used Canucks forward. You *have* to produce offense with that kind of usage. Malhotra was never more than 6th.

 

[Canucks1096]

It's fascinating to me that "Sutter is the new Malhotra!" gets repeated without evidence.

Malhotra 1) played less, 2) got buried even deeper defensively than Sutter did, 3) was way more effective than Sutter at suppressing shots and goals against.

Sutter is the 3rd-most used Canucks forward. You *have* to produce offense with that kind of usage. Malhotra was never more than 6th.

No he wasn't. Manny exact dzone Start was 75% in 2011 and Sutter this year was 77%.

Manny played 16 mins in 2011 and Sutter played 17 mins this year.

Manny has 46% Corsi in 2011 and Sutter has 43% Corsi this year

Manny is +8 in 2011 and this year Sutter is +7.

Sutter has 25 points in 59 games. That is on pace for 35 points in 82 games. That is a solid numbers considering no pp time and all the dzone starts he gets and the wingers he gets. Sutter is so underrated.

It's fascinating to me that people make all these comments without doing research. Let not forget Canucks in 2011 were a much much much much better team than 2017 Canucks. I killed all the 4 points you made. If I didn't please let me know and provide evidences

 

[VanJack]

Several posters commenting that Goldobin's development might come at the expense of Baertschi.....Hmm....wondering if he might be a guy the Canucks part with in the off-season?

 

[Zippgunn]

Baertschi has the benefit of playing with excellent linemates and is roughly a 45 ish point tweener.

No one is saying to dump him but if the team has the opportunity to get value for Baertschi or if he’s asking for too much money I’d absolutely move him.

As would I. I have a gut feeling Baer has maxed out here. If by some miracle both he and Goldy play to their potential we could be a real fun team to watch if not exactly Cup contenders. A decent d corps would help.

 

[M2Beezy]

Pettersson has played RW or C this entire year(almost played some LW at WJC), I know he shoots left, but he looks better on RW. If hes not a center he should be the 2nd line RW IMO

So:

Baertchi Horvat Boeser
Gold Gaudette PBP
Lipesic Sutter Virtanen
Clamato Gaunce Archie

Factor in the incoming overpaid UFA forward and boy o boy do the Gagner and Eriksson signings look more DEVESTATING than ever

 

[Jimbo57]

No he wasn't. Manny exact dzone Start was 75% in 2011 and Sutter this year was 77%.

Manny played 16 mins in 2011 and Sutter played 17 mins this year.

Manny has 46% Corsi in 2011 and Sutter has 43% Corsi this year

Manny is +8 in 2011 and this year Sutter is +7.

Sutter has 25 points in 59 games. That is on pace for 35 points in 82 games. That is a solid numbers considering no pp time and all the dzone starts he gets and the wingers he gets. Sutter is so underrated.

It's fascinating to me that people make all these comments without doing research. Let not forget Canucks in 2011 were a much much much much better team than 2017 Canucks. I killed all the 4 points you made. If I didn't please let me know and provide evidences

ouch! that was an epic beat down!

 

[Luck 6]

So:

Baertchi Horvat Boeser
Gold Gaudette PBP
Lipesic Sutter Virtanen
Clamato Gaunce Archie

Factor in the incoming overpaid UFA forward and boy o boy do the Gagner and Eriksson signings look more DEVESTATING than ever

There will be injuries, a guy like Gagner is just fine to have around to compensate for that. Eriksson on the other hand, we all know that was a terrible contract.

Also, Gaudette has shown very little to suggest he'll be in that 2C slot next year, plus I don't see them putting those three guys together with much consistency.

Baertschi-Horvat-Pettersson
Goldobin-Gagner-Boeser
Lipesic-Sutter-Virtanen
Gaunce-Gaudette-Granlund

Something along those lines looks far more balanced and practical, it spreads the offense out a bit rather than stacking the first line. I'll admit though I hate line up debates, they change so quickly based on what's working / what's not that it's utterly pointless. But, Goldobin has shown enough towards the end of this season that he should be put in an offensive role.

 

[604]

So:

Baertchi Horvat Boeser
Gold Gaudette PBP
Lipesic Sutter Virtanen
Clamato Gaunce Archie

Factor in the incoming overpaid UFA forward and boy o boy do the Gagner and Eriksson signings look more DEVESTATING than ever

After we sign Karlson and Tavares?

 

[Lemmiwinks]

No he wasn't. Manny exact dzone Start was 75% in 2011 and Sutter this year was 77%.

Manny played 16 mins in 2011 and Sutter played 17 mins this year.

Manny has 46% Corsi in 2011 and Sutter has 43% Corsi this year

Manny is +8 in 2011 and this year Sutter is +7.

Sutter has 25 points in 59 games. That is on pace for 35 points in 82 games. That is a solid numbers considering no pp time and all the dzone starts he gets and the wingers he gets. Sutter is so underrated.

It's fascinating to me that people make all these comments without doing research. Let not forget Canucks in 2011 were a much much much much better team than 2017 Canucks. I killed all the 4 points you made. If I didn't please let me know and provide evidences

Quality post here. I've never heard so many crickets.

 

[Tobi Wan Kenobi]

That lineup will secure the Canucks top odds on the #1 pick in the 2019 entry draft......

Lol.. if you think that lineup was meant for next season than you’re hopeless

 

[Intangibos]

Goldobin Horvat Boeser
Dahlen Pettersson Lind
Palmu Guadette Virtanen
Gadjovich Gaunce Lockwood

Why Palmu? Why Gaunce at C? Why Lind stepping in on the 2nd line?

Lol.. if you think that lineup was meant for next season than you’re hopeless

Was it meant for fantasy land where picks all turn out? Unless that was your goal it doesn't matter what season it was meant for.

 

[me2]

No he wasn't. Manny exact dzone Start was 75% in 2011 and Sutter this year was 77%.

Manny played 16 mins in 2011 and Sutter played 17 mins this year.

Manny has 46% Corsi in 2011 and Sutter has 43% Corsi this year

Manny is +8 in 2011 and this year Sutter is +7.

Sutter has 25 points in 59 games. That is on pace for 35 points in 82 games. That is a solid numbers considering no pp time and all the dzone starts he gets and the wingers he gets. Sutter is so underrated.

It's fascinating to me that people make all these comments without doing research. Let not forget Canucks in 2011 were a much much much much better team than 2017 Canucks. I killed all the 4 points you made. If I didn't please let me know and provide evidences

Sutter came up real big when we needed him the most with 9 points, +7 in the last 10 games of the season.

 

[Black Noise]

No he wasn't. Manny exact dzone Start was 75% in 2011 and Sutter this year was 77%.

Manny played 16 mins in 2011 and Sutter played 17 mins this year.

Manny has 46% Corsi in 2011 and Sutter has 43% Corsi this year

Manny is +8 in 2011 and this year Sutter is +7.

Sutter has 25 points in 59 games. That is on pace for 35 points in 82 games. That is a solid numbers considering no pp time and all the dzone starts he gets and the wingers he gets. Sutter is so underrated.

It's fascinating to me that people make all these comments without doing research. Let not forget Canucks in 2011 were a much much much much better team than 2017 Canucks. I killed all the 4 points you made. If I didn't please let me know and provide evidences

While I'll agree that Sutter is a good 3rd liner, Malhotra was 5th in Selke voting in 2011 (behind Kesler, Toews, Datsyuk and Bergeron), and was also only making $2.5 million on a 3 year deal compared to Sutter's $4.4 million for 5 years.

I also think prorating Sutter's points to 82 games is silly considering he ended the season with 9 points in 10 games in garbage time. Sutter was invisible offensively before that late meaningless tear he went on.

I don't think the Sutter-Malhotra comparison is really that far off as others would say but I think Sutter's contract + 5v5 ice time relative to the rest of forwards (3rd on the team) + the fact he kinda comes off as a knob turns people against him.

 

[Canucks1096]

While I'll agree that Sutter is a good 3rd liner, Malhotra was 5th in Selke voting in 2011 (behind Kesler, Toews, Datsyuk and Bergeron), and was also only making $2.5 million on a 3 year deal compared to Sutter's $4.4 million for 5 years.

I also think prorating Sutter's points to 82 games is silly considering he ended the season with 9 points in 10 games in garbage time. Sutter was invisible offensively before that late meaningless tear he went on.

I don't think the Sutter-Malhotra comparison is really that far off as others would say but I think Sutter's contract + 5v5 ice time relative to the rest of forwards (3rd on the team) + the fact he kinda comes off as a knob turns people against him.

For the record this post is not about who is better Sutter or Manny. I just used an example on why Sutter is valuable by taking hard mins away from Horvat and Horvat can concentrate on offence. Kind of like how Manny did that for Kesler. Then the other user took thing out context by saying Manny is so much better than Sutter Because Manny 1 played less 2 got buried defensively. 3 Better at suppressing shots and GA. That post was just about proving him wrong.

Anyway Canucks were out of it way before the last 10 games. So if Sutter got those points from game 61 to 70 instead of game 73 to 82. What difference does that make?

Regardless of points pace. If you look almost every Player game log. There is going to be stretch of 10 games when they went on a hot streak with bunch of points. If you take a 10 game hot streak away from any player. There point pace is going to be a lot different. If you don't like point pace argument. Sutter has 26 esp which was 5th on the team. Sedins has early 30 esp with a lot better linemate and zone starts. Sutter did his job offensively considering the playing field he was given. My opinion Sutter was the Canucks best 5th forward this season.

 

[Intangibos]

In regards to Sutter, in this Goldobin thread, how does Sutter relate to comparable players at his price/deployment around the league compared to Malhotra at the same time? For example scoring 80 points in 2002 is more impressive than 2018, so I would like to see if Malhotra was far ahead of anyone else and if Sutter is the same. If Sutter makes 4.4 and there are similar players around the league making less who don't cost as much to acquire, it doesn't really matter if Sutter's numbers are similar to Malhotra's in a vacuum. Not saying they are, my biggest problem with Sutter is his cost in regards to salary and what we traded for him rather than the actual player. I'm just curious.

 

[MadaCanuckle]

No he wasn't. Manny exact dzone Start was 75% in 2011 and Sutter this year was 77%.

Manny played 16 mins in 2011 and Sutter played 17 mins this year.

Manny has 46% Corsi in 2011 and Sutter has 43% Corsi this year

Manny is +8 in 2011 and this year Sutter is +7.

Sutter has 25 points in 59 games. That is on pace for 35 points in 82 games. That is a solid numbers considering no pp time and all the dzone starts he gets and the wingers he gets. Sutter is so underrated.

It's fascinating to me that people make all these comments without doing research. Let not forget Canucks in 2011 were a much much much much better team than 2017 Canucks. I killed all the 4 points you made. If I didn't please let me know and provide evidences

Manny had a 101 PDO and Sutter 103. There's your "point production" right there. And if take into account that Malhotra was a 61.7% FO man and Sutter, the assumedly FO specialist, is a paltry 51.7. Not to mention also the SH%

Can I say "I killed your points too when you're trying to inflate some stats just to prove your point rather than looking at the big picture" or may I say "It's fascinating to me that people make all these comments without doing research (and not understanding what those stats mean, may I add)"?

 

[Peen]

For the record this post is not about who is better Sutter or Manny. I just used an example on why Sutter is valuable by taking hard mins away from Horvat and Horvat can concentrate on offence. Kind of like how Manny did that for Kesler. Then the other user took thing out context by saying Manny is so much better than Sutter Because Manny 1 played less 2 got buried defensively. 3 Better at suppressing shots and GA. That post was just about proving him wrong.

Anyway Canucks were out of it way before the last 10 games. So if Sutter got those points from game 61 to 70 instead of game 73 to 82. What difference does that make?

Regardless of points pace. If you look almost every Player game log. There is going to be stretch of 10 games when they went on a hot streak with bunch of points. If you take a 10 game hot streak away from any player. There point pace is going to be a lot different. If you don't like point pace argument. Sutter has 26 esp which was 5th on the team. Sedins has early 30 esp with a lot better linemate and zone starts. Sutter did his job offensively considering the playing field he was given. My opinion Sutter was the Canucks best 5th forward this season.

I don't disagree with any of this post, except the last sentence. To me, he was our 7th best forward. But at his salary, he has to be at least that every night. That's where issues with Sutter stem. We traded a lot for a guy who Benning believed could be a 2nd line center and he paid him as such.

If Sutter was making a bit over 3m or we traded less assets for him, I guarantee people don't have as much of an issue with his play.

Also, funny feeling that he has his best season next year. Those last ten games of the season, ignoring his unsustainable production, he seemed like he was reading the ice better than he had at any point in years past. Less tunnel vision translated to success on the ice, who knew? If he was just scoring more playing the same, I'd say we should expect the same 30 point tunnel vision Sutter. But, hopefully we see an improvement distributing.

 

[Canucks1096]

Manny had a 101 PDO and Sutter 103. There's your "point production" right there. And if take into account that Malhotra was a 61.7% FO man and Sutter, the assumedly FO specialist, is a paltry 51.7. Not to mention also the SH%

Can I say "I killed your points too when you're trying to inflate some stats just to prove your point rather than looking at the big picture" or may I say "It's fascinating to me that people make all these comments without doing research (and not understanding what those stats mean, may I add)"?

You might want to go back and read what the debate was about instead of just posting some random stat.

Let me post some random as well stat Sutter had more esp than Manny. 26 to 24. yay so I win.

 

[MadaCanuckle]

You might want to go back and read what the debate was about instead of just posting some random stat.

Let me post some random as well stat Sutter had more esp than Manny. 26 to 24. yay so I win.

You might go back and understand what that random stat is all about instad of just posting some random answer about something you clearly don't understand.

 

[Canucks1096]

You might go back and understand what that random stat is all about instad of just posting some random answer about something you clearly don't understand.

The other user wrote 1 Manny played less 2 Manny played more of defensive role 3 way better at suppressing shots 4 need to produce offence.

Ice time/D zone starts/corsi were all around the same. Sutter had 26 esp which was 5th on the team. Thst proves all 4 of things he said was just not true. There is really no debate for this. I just look at the numbers and what he said he is not accurate.

You are looking at pdo. Shooting and save percentage. That has nothing to do with the argument. We are not debating about who is better player. Not sure why you bring faceoffs into this as well.

Anyway. If next time if you don't mind. Can you read a few more post before you reply. So you actually know what we are debating. Instead of just posting something that is not related to the debate. Thanks.

 

[The Vasili Jerry]

I came in thinking there was some new Goldy chatter and was surprised to find the entire page is a Sutter v Malhotra thread.

 

[MadaCanuckle]

The other user wrote 1 Manny played less 2 Manny played more of defensive role 3 way better at suppressing shots 4 need to produce offence.

Ice time/D zone starts/corsi were all around the same. Sutter had 26 esp which was 5th on the team. Thst proves all 4 of things he said was just not true. There is really no debate for this. I just look at the numbers and what he said he is not accurate.

You are looking at pdo. Shooting and save percentage. That has nothing to do with the argument. We are not debating about who is better player. Not sure why you bring faceoffs into this as well.

Anyway. If next time if you don't mind. Can you read a few more post before you reply. So you actually know what we are debating. Instead of just posting something that is not related to the debate. Thanks.

You are comparing production and you are stating that Sutter has similar production than Malhotra. I am saying Sutter was extremely lucky to get that production. As a matter of fact

1. Manny played 1 less minute per game
2. Sutter got the production with a extremely nice shooting % in his favour
3. Sutter was lucky to get those esp
4. Comparing the two in similar conditions, Malhotra was the most productive player, no matter how much stats you ignore to prove your point.

So, next time, if you don't mind, try to understand at least a little of what advanced stats are and how can you judge them correctly. Thanks in advance.