Player Discussion Nick Suzuki Part IX

[Kriss E]

The AHL would not have hurt him. But the NHL didn't hurt him, either.

Never claimed otherwise.

 

[Kriss E]

He was one of the few bright spots. Using standings is a horrible argument when Suzuki excelled. They made the right call not sending him down, he got better because of it.

You don't actually know if they made the right call, for that you'd need to go back in time, send him down, and then see how he does after. It doesn't look like it hurt him at all, he had a very good rookie year.
Still would prefer having an internal standard where most of our prospects go through the AHL.

The point I was making with the standings is we didn't need Suzuki here.

 

[The Great Weal]

You don't actually know if they made the right call, for that you'd need to go back in time, send him down, and then see how he does after. It doesn't look like it hurt him at all, he had a very good rookie year.
Still would prefer having an internal standard where most of our prospects go through the AHL.

The point I was making with the standings is we didn't need Suzuki here.

I do know they made the right call because he has improved a lot since the start of the season at the NHL level and he was one of the better rookies in the league and lead us in the playoffs. He would be a complete mystery in the AHL and his growth would not be as good. Improving in the NHL>>>>>>>>>Improving in the AHL.

It's a terrible point. Sabres didn't need Dahlin on their team either since they still suck, doesn't mean they should have sent him to Sweeden. Suzuki, just like Dahlin is a key player for their respective team.

 

[Kriss E]

I do know they made the right call because he has improved a lot since the start of the season at the NHL level and he was one of the better rookies in the league and lead us in the playoffs. He would be a complete mystery in the AHL and his growth would not be as good. Improving in the NHL>>>>>>>>>Improving in the AHL.

It's a terrible point. Sabres didn't need Dahlin on their team either since they still suck, doesn't mean they should have sent him to Sweeden. Suzuki, just like Dahlin is a key player for their respective team.

No, you don't. You don't actually know what would be better. Dahlin is an exceptional, Suzuki is not.
You're contradicting yourself, if he would be ''a mystery'' in the AHL then by definition, you can't know if his growth wouldn't be as good. Nobody ever got hurt for spending a few months in the AHL as a rookie.
Also, I'm not suggesting he'd have to stay the entire season down there.

I'm talking about a standard operational line. Unless you're a top pick like Dahlin, or Crosby, or McDavid, etc, then you should go through the AHL route.

 

[The Great Weal]

No, you don't. You don't actually know what would be better. Dahlin is an exceptional, Suzuki is not.
You're contradicting yourself, if he would be ''a mystery'' in the AHL then by definition, you can't know if his growth wouldn't be as good. Nobody ever got hurt for spending a few months in the AHL as a rookie.
Also, I'm not suggesting he'd have to stay the entire season down there.

I'm talking about a standard operational line. Unless you're a top pick like Dahlin, or Crosby, or McDavid, etc, then you should go through the AHL route.

Why should Suzuki not be given the chance when he already torched juniors and completely dominated the OHL playoffs?
I am most definitely not contradicting myself. Nobody knows how he would have performed at the AHL level. Everybody knows how he performed in the NHL level. If he didn't grow in the AHL, then it would have been a horrible decision. If he did grow in the AHL, it definitely wouldn't have been as much as growing in the NHL. It's stupid and potentially burdensome to send down one of your best players and rookies in the league to the AHL for a few months when he is growing so much and improving all around in the NHL level.
He shouldn't have been sent down at all unless there was no NHL playoffs but there was AHL playoffs.

That's a terrible way to do handle ALL your prospects. Canucks didn't do that with Hughes or Pettersson and it was obviously the right call. Unless you think they made a mistake and should have sent them both down for fun to play a month of AHL hockey when they are already key players on a middling team.

 

[Kriss E]

Why should Suzuki not be given the chance when he already torched juniors and completely dominated the OHL playoffs?
I am most definitely not contradicting myself. Nobody knows how he would have performed at the AHL level. Everybody knows how he performed in the NHL level. If he didn't grow in the AHL, then it would have been a horrible decision. If he did grow in the AHL, it definitely wouldn't have been as much as growing in the NHL. It's stupid and potentially burdensome to send down one of your best players and rookies in the league to the AHL for a few months when he is growing so much and improving all around in the NHL level.
He shouldn't have been sent down at all unless there was no NHL playoffs but there was AHL playoffs.

Why in the hell would he not have grown in the AHL?

That's a terrible way to do handle ALL your prospects. Canucks didn't do that with Hughes or Pettersson and it was obviously the right call. Unless you think they made a mistake and should have sent them both down for fun to play a month of AHL hockey when they are already key players on a middling team.

I didn't say ''ALL'', I said there would be exceptions for the really special players. I didn't say keeping those guys, or even Suzuki, was a mistake. Please try to follow.
You have no argument to think it would be a terrible procedure.

 

[The Great Weal]

Why in the hell would he not have grown in the AHL?

I didn't say ''ALL'', I said there would be exceptions for the really special players. I didn't say keeping those guys, or even Suzuki, was a mistake. Please try to follow.
You have no argument to think it would be a terrible procedure.

Not growing in the AHL is not exactly uncommon. Look at Duncan Keith for example.

How was Suzuki not a special player? You don't dominate juniors like that without being special.

 

[Kriss E]

Not growing in the AHL is not exactly uncommon. Look at Duncan Keith for example.

How was Suzuki not a special player? You don't dominate juniors like that without being special.

What about Keith? He developed in the AHL for 2 seasons. Did that hurt him? How so?

Suzuki is not an exceptional player. Seems like you're arguing for the sake of it. I did not say Suzuki got hurt by sticking to the NHL, that no player save for the McDavids of the world can't do fine bypassing the AHL process, but I wouldn't chance it either way.

 

[The Great Weal]

What about Keith? He developed in the AHL for 2 seasons. Did that hurt him? How so?

Suzuki is not an exceptional player. Seems like you're arguing for the sake of it. I did not say Suzuki got hurt by sticking to the NHL, that no player save for the McDavids of the world can't do fine bypassing the AHL process, but I wouldn't chance it either way.

You are talking are questioning why Suzuki wouldn't grow in the AHL. I'm proving to you that it can be the case as shown with Duncan Keith.

Suzuki was an a bluechip prospect. Just like Pettersson. Just like Q.Hughes. Canucks didn't send them down and made the right call, just like how we didn't send down Suzuki. I have no idea why you are ignoring this.

 

[Kriss E]

You are talking are questioning why Suzuki wouldn't grow in the AHL. I'm proving to you that it can be the case as shown with Duncan Keith.

No you didn't. Just because his production stayed the same doesn't mean he didn't grow his game.
He developed in the AHL.

Suzuki was an a bluechip prospect. Just like Pettersson. Just like Q.Hughes. Canucks didn't send them down and made the right call, just like how we didn't send down Suzuki. I have no idea why you are ignoring this.

I'm not ignoring anything. I would have still started him in the AHL, if he's this exceptional blue chip prospect then he will show very quickly down there how terrific he is, we can call him up after that.
It's called having a plan and structure.

 

[DAChampion]

Why should Suzuki not be given the chance when he already torched juniors and completely dominated the OHL playoffs?
I am most definitely not contradicting myself. Nobody knows how he would have performed at the AHL level. Everybody knows how he performed in the NHL level. If he didn't grow in the AHL, then it would have been a horrible decision. If he did grow in the AHL, it definitely wouldn't have been as much as growing in the NHL. It's stupid and potentially burdensome to send down one of your best players and rookies in the league to the AHL for a few months when he is growing so much and improving all around in the NHL level.
He shouldn't have been sent down at all unless there was no NHL playoffs but there was AHL playoffs.

That's a terrible way to do handle ALL your prospects. Canucks didn't do that with Hughes or Pettersson and it was obviously the right call. Unless you think they made a mistake and should have sent them both down for fun to play a month of AHL hockey when they are already key players on a middling team.

The context is one where Bergevin likes to rush players as soon as possible. Examples abound. Sometimes guys like Poehling get sent to the NHL because they had two or three good AHL games in a row.

So replacing that with a general rule of requiring nearly all players to dominate the AHL prior to coming up to the NHL is a good idea. If the AHL didn't hurt Subban why would it hurt Suzuki?

 

[The Great Weal]

No you didn't. Just because his production stayed the same doesn't mean he didn't grow his game.
He developed in the AHL.

I'm not ignoring anything. I would have still started him in the AHL, if he's this exceptional blue chip prospect then he will show very quickly down there how terrific he is, we can call him up after that.
It's called having a plan and structure.

Yes I absolutely did, you are just in denial like all the time. Duncan Keith literally talked about him struggling a lot in the AHL and was questioning if he was ever going to be an NHLer. He then got the chance and wanted to make the most of it. You have no idea what you are talking about with this, just admit you are dead wrong dude. Let's also not pretend that if that was the case with Suzuki, you would have wanted him to be in the NHL next year instead of producing more in the AHL.

Well the Canucks would have laughed at your idea because they wouldn't have gone on their run if they sent down Pettersson and Hughes for a month or two.

 

[The Great Weal]

The context is one where Bergevin likes to rush players as soon as possible. Examples abound. Sometimes guys like Poehling get sent to the NHL because they had two or three good AHL games in a row.

So replacing that with a general rule of requiring nearly all players to dominate the AHL prior to coming up to the NHL is a good idea. If the AHL didn't hurt Subban why would it hurt Suzuki?

Poehling got called up because he was crying about being sent down. Bergevin shouldn't have called him up, but that's a disgusting attitude and mentality for a pro athlete. I know what you mean though.

For instance, what did 17 games in the AHL do for Kucherov? Was that incredibly helpful for him? No, not really. Like I said with Keith, some players don't grow much if at all in the AHL. With Suzuki, he has improved in the NHL. And NHL growth>>>>>>>>AHL growth.

 

[Kriss E]

Yes I absolutely did, you are just in denial like all the time. Duncan Keith literally talked about him struggling a lot in the AHL and was questioning if he was ever going to be an NHLer. He then got the chance and wanted to make the most of it. You have no idea what you are talking about with this, just admit you are dead wrong dude. Let's also not pretend that if that was the case with Suzuki, you would have wanted him to be in the NHL next year instead of producing more in the AHL.

So he had self-doubt and confidence issues, battled through them, showed up to camp after 2 years in the AHL, made the team and went on to become a great NHLer, possibly Hall of Famer.
Oh my god...the AHL ruined him!!!
Do you even hear yourself?

If Suzuki was struggling in the AHL, indeed, I wouldn't call him up to play in the NHL. Why would you?

Well the Canucks would have laughed at your idea because they wouldn't have gone on their run if they sent down Pettersson and Hughes for a month or two.

So the Canucks this year wouldn't go on a run because Pettersson played in the AHL last season?? Pettersson is not a rookie.
You also don't know any of this. If Quinn spent a month in the AHL to start his career, it doesn't mean the Canucks don't make the POs.

 

[The Great Weal]

If Suzuki was struggling in the AHL, indeed, I wouldn't call him up to play in the NHL. Why would you?

Why did the Hawks call up Keith then? They should have kept him in the AHL and called him up when they produced to your standards, being older, and risking not learning as much in the NHL?

So the Canucks this year wouldn't go on a run because Pettersson played in the AHL last season?? Pettersson is not a rookie.
You also don't know any of this. If Quinn spent a month in the AHL to start his career, it doesn't mean the Canucks don't make the POs.

What? Pettersson didn't play in the AHL... He wasn't a 1st overall pick which is your criteria which means you wanted to send him down to the AHL.

Well there goes your credibility. Sending Hughes down for a month costs them many points in the standings and as a middling team under normal circumstances, that kills your playoff chances.

 

[Kriss E]

Why did the Hawks call up Keith then? They should have kept him in the AHL and called him up when they produced to your standards, being older, and risking not learning as much in the NHL?

They didn't call him up. He played two seasons in the AHL, in year 3 he made the Hawks team out of camp.
And given his career, it definitely did not hurt him. You should probably not pick a potential hall of famer as an example of how damaging the AHL was to someone....

What? Pettersson didn't play in the AHL... He wasn't a 1st overall pick which is your criteria which means you wanted to send him down to the AHL.

I never said you need to specifically be a 1st overall.

Well there goes your credibility. Sending Hughes down for a month costs them many points in the standings and as a middling team under normal circumstances, that kills your playoff chances.

Again, you actually don't know that. Definitely would hurt the Canucks, how much is unknown.

 

[The Great Weal]

They didn't call him up. He played two seasons in the AHL, in year 3 he made the Hawks team out of camp.
And given his career, it definitely did not hurt him. You should probably not pick a potential hall of famer as an example of how damaging the AHL was to someone....

I never said you need to specifically be a 1st overall.

Again, you actually don't know that. Definitely would hurt the Canucks, how much is unknown.

You aren't reading properly. I'm using a hypothetical scenario. It did hurt him, he was losing confidence which is the last thing you want in a prospect.

You only used 1st overall picks as examples and don't bullshit your way into saying Pettersson and Hughes both fit your "exceptional" status at that time.

I do know. Because he is the main driver of the Canucks offense and does it from the backend. Without him, they lose more games which means fewer points which means out of the playoffs since they are out of the playoffs. I've watched more Canucks games and know many die hard Canucks fans to know that 1 month without Hughes(who is the Canucks MVP for myself and a good proportion of the Canucks fans I know) would mean no playoffs under normal circumstances.

 

[Kriss E]

You aren't reading properly. I'm using a hypothetical scenario. It did hurt him, he was losing confidence which is the last thing you want in a prospect.

It didn't hurt him, at all. It's called development. He had confident issues you say? What 20 yo doesn't?
Fact remains, he played 2 years in the AHL, kept a steady production as his role increased, and on his 3rd year as a pro he made the NHL off camp, and became one of, if not The, best Dman in the NHL during his prime years.
Again, you should reconsider your little scenario. It's a terrible one.

You only used 1st overall picks as examples and don't bullshit your way into saying Pettersson and Hughes both fit your "exceptional" status at that time.

I used names, not picks. Whether they were picked 1st or 2nd or 3rd is irrelevant. I was pointing towards a higher echelon of eliteness. Obviously, often times, it falls on the 1st OV. I'm not exclusively looking at the 1st overall though.

I do know. Because he is the main driver of the Canucks offense and does it from the backend. Without him, they lose more games which means fewer points which means out of the playoffs since they are out of the playoffs. I've watched more Canucks games and know many die hard Canucks fans to know that 1 month without Hughes(who is the Canucks MVP for myself and a good proportion of the Canucks fans I know) would mean no playoffs under normal circumstances.

No you don't know! You don't know how many games they would lose without him. You don't.
When Weber missed the beginning of 18-19 season, the team still came out super strong out of the gates. You would imagine the opposite would surely happen but it didn't. So stop saying you know this or that. You f***ing don't.

 

[DAChampion]

Habs prospects who might have been hurt by being rushed too quickly:

Tinordi, Beaulieu, Galchenyuk, McCarron, Scherbak, De La Rose, Mete, Poehling

Habs prospects who might have been undermined due to spending too much time in the AHL:

 

[The Great Weal]

It didn't hurt him, at all. It's called development. He had confident issues you say? What 20 yo doesn't?
Fact remains, he played 2 years in the AHL, kept a steady production as his role increased, and on his 3rd year as a pro he made the NHL off camp, and became one of, if not The, best Dman in the NHL during his prime years.
Again, you should reconsider your little scenario. It's a terrible one.

I used names, not picks. Whether they were picked 1st or 2nd or 3rd is irrelevant. I was pointing towards a higher echelon of eliteness. Obviously, often times, it falls on the 1st OV. I'm not exclusively looking at the 1st overall though.



No you don't know! You don't know how many games they would lose without him. You don't.
When Weber missed the beginning of 18-19 season, the team still came out super strong out of the gates. You would imagine the opposite would surely happen but it didn't. So stop saying you know this or that. You f***ing don't.

But you wouldn't call him up! I know for sure if that was the case here you would be the first one calling Bergevin the biggest f***ing moron because he called up a guy who hasn't improved with production while having confidence issues. It's not a terrible scenario whatsoever because I am 100% positive that would be the case if that happened here.

All your names were 1st overall picks. That is not a coincidence with being "exceptional".

Yes I do know. I know they would have at least 1 point less(which would have eliminated them from the playoffs under normal circumstances) without their best/2nd best player in a position they had issues with. You clearly have no f***ing idea what you are talking about dude, I don't know what else to tell you. If next up you want to believe that "we wouldn't know" if no McDavid for a month would result in less points in standings for the Oilers then go ahead and believe that ridiculously stupid belief.

 

[The Great Weal]

Habs prospects who might have been hurt by being rushed too quickly:

Tinordi, Beaulieu, Galchenyuk, McCarron, Scherbak, De La Rose, Mete, Poehling

Habs prospects who might have been undermined due to spending too much time in the AHL:

I respectfully disagree. A lot of people were crying for us to call up Hudon far sooner than he actually did. So I'm adding him to the undermined due to extensive AHL time. Similar thing with Andrighetto.

 

[Kriss E]

But you wouldn't call him up! I know for sure if that was the case here you would be the first one calling Bergevin the biggest f***ing moron because he called up a guy who hasn't improved with production while having confidence issues. It's not a terrible scenario whatsoever because I am 100% positive that would be the case if that happened here.

But the Hawks didn't call up Keith..so...? What's your point?

All your names were 1st overall picks. That is not a coincidence with being "exceptional".

So what? Marner was a 4th OV, also made sense for him to bypass the AHL.
It's like you try to create arguments.
Also notice I'm not the only poster to tell you this.

Yes I do know. I know they would have at least 1 point less(which would have eliminated them from the playoffs under normal circumstances) without their best/2nd best player in a position they had issues with. You clearly have no f***ing idea what you are talking about dude, I don't know what else to tell you. If next up you want to believe that "we wouldn't know" if no McDavid for a month would result in less points in standings for the Oilers then go ahead and believe that ridiculously stupid belief.

No again, you don't. You're not God who can see into hypotheticals as if they're facts.
No Weber would result in less points for us too. Didn't happen.
No Crosby would result in less points for Pittsburgh too. Didn't happen.

You can say they most likely miss the POs. Yup, I can agree with that. But you don't actually know.
Words matter, use the correct ones.

 

[DAChampion]

I respectfully disagree. A lot of people were crying for us to call up Hudon far sooner than he actually did. So I'm adding him to the undermined due to extensive AHL time. Similar thing with Andrighetto.

Have you ever written that Galchenyuk, McCarron, or Scherbak never had it? Because now you're saying that Hudon and Andrighetto were hurt by bad development.

 

[The Great Weal]

Have you ever written that Galchenyuk, McCarron, or Scherbak never had it? Because now you're saying that Hudon and Andrighetto were hurt by bad development.

I did, but it's obvious that Ghetto and Hudon couldn't adapt to the NHL either. Could that be because they were left down for too long despite producing and developed bad habits? You cant have it both ways regarding prospects being rushed my friend.

You cant ignore those 2 because it kinda shows how producing in the AHL doesnt mean everything and I dont know how you can blame bad development for them.

For the record, I think our development has hurt pretty much every prospect. It is embarrassing how bad it is. Still doesnt excuse the lack of good players able to adapt in the NHL.

 

[417]

Habs prospects who might have been hurt by being rushed too quickly:

Tinordi, Beaulieu, Galchenyuk, McCarron, Scherbak, De La Rose, Mete, Poehling

Habs prospects who might have been undermined due to spending too much time in the AHL:

There's no real way of knowing if those guys career trajectories would have been different had they spent more time in the AHL.

I mean even Beaulieu,Tinordi and Scherbak played well over 100 AHL games before getting an extended look in the NHL.

Hell Charles Hudon played over 200 games...that didn't do anything for his career.