Prospect Info: Nick Paul

[Holdurbreathe]

I take Drouin over everyone outside the obvious top 3.

Talent wise I might agree.

However any kid drafted after the top three this summer is likely willing to hone their craft for another year in junior, followed by spending time in the AHL working their way onto an NHL roster.

Drouin hasn't shown a willingness to do these things.

So as a GM do you want a player dictating the terms?

 

[Micklebot]

What has Drouin done to warrant the return some people have suggested?

I definitely understand StevieY wanting a great return for his #3 overall pick in 2013, but realistically he is going to have to get extremely fortunate to get more than a prospect and/or a mid - late 1st round pick.

Obviously Drouin has shown he has skill, yet it appears his character may be a significant downside with his sense of entitlement and somewhat selfish behavior.

While there is always a GM that likes to believe a change of scenery fixes all, in this case I would strongly suggest buyer beware.

Just like how Turris had a sense of entitlement?

Drouin is a legit talent. He's done a decent job of translating that to the ice in Tbay in a limited role and still has sky high potential, truthfully his potential is the highest the org has seen since Karlsson.

If there wasn't any risk involved, he a) wouldn't be available, and b) would cost even more than anyone has suggested.

Honestly, not willing to give up Paul for Drouin is insane. I can understand not wanting to move Ceci, or even Chabot, but there comes a point when it just gets absurd how devalued people think the guy is because of a dispute with management. Is Anderson a bad egg because he had a feud with Colorado?

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Talent wise I might agree.

However any kid drafted after the top three this summer is likely willing to hone their craft for another year in junior, followed by spending time in the AHL working their way onto an NHL roster.

Drouin hasn't shown a willingness to do these things.

So as a GM do you want a player dictating the terms?

Drouin spent another year junior?

 

[Holdurbreathe]

I dont know when White has played RW, and I think its pretty clear Drouin will be a LW at the NHL level. Diz and Paul both play C in bingo, but yes they can play LW like they are now. The logic would be to trade a two-way centerman that is not on your team for a pure offensive winger that can play now, while having two young two-way players that can fulfill the gap losing White might bring (3 including Lazar - all three known for their good defensive abilities). But, with your logic, we should put all of our focus on a RW which im fine with... still hope we target a long term piece however.

In your opinion, but obviously not in the opinion of the Lightning coach or GM.

 

[Micklebot]

Talent wise I might agree.

However any kid drafted after the top three this summer is likely willing to hone their craft for another year in junior, followed by spending time in the AHL working their way onto an NHL roster.

Drouin hasn't shown a willingness to do these things.

So as a GM do you want a player dictating the terms?

Drouin did hone his craft with another year in Junior, went to the AHL and was called up for a full season in the NHL putting up respectable rookie numbers as a 19 year old playing in the bottom 6.

He's got his warts, but lets not pretend the guy is the next Daigle here and has no interest in putting in any effort, wanting just to get his paycheck.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

Drouin spent another year junior?

Not what I said.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Not what I said.

No it's what I'm saying. Should have been a period rather than a question mark.

 

[Iamok]

Just like how Turris had a sense of entitlement?

Drouin is a legit talent. He's done a decent job of translating that to the ice in Tbay in a limited role and still has sky high potential, truthfully his potential is the highest the org has seen since Karlsson.

If there wasn't any risk involved, he a) wouldn't be available, and b) would cost even more than anyone has suggested.

Honestly, not willing to give up Paul for Drouin is insane. I can understand not wanting to move Ceci, or even Chabot, but there comes a point when it just gets absurd how devalued people think the guy is because of a dispute with management. Is Anderson a bad egg because he had a feud with Colorado?

Maybe it's just me, but there's a significant difference between holding out during contract talks, and flat out refusing to report when you're under contract. At the very least, Turris did his time and fulfilled his contractual obligation which damn well near every prospect, happy or not, has been able to do...

The fact is everyone has to "do their time" and the fact that Drouin can't even do that raises a flag for me.

 

[Micklebot]

In your opinion, but obviously not in the opinion of the Lightning coach or GM.

I think it's a case of roles. They don't think he's a better option in the top6 currently than Palat or Kilorn, and want more defensive guys in the bottom 6.

 

[Micklebot]

Maybe it's just me, but there's a significant difference between holding out during contract talks, and flat out refusing to report when you're under contract. At the very least, Turris did his time and fulfilled his contractual obligation which damn well near every prospect, happy or not, has been able to do...

The fact is everyone has to "do their time" and the fact that Drouin can't even do that raises a flag for me.

That's fair, although we don't know what's going on behind the scenes. He gets told to go down to the AHL to show get back into game shape and prove he's healthy. They may have said we want you down there for a couple games. If he's getting told one thing and then they are doing something completely different, that's a red flag too. The whole situation in TBay has a lot of question marks. Why did StLouis want out? Why hasn't Stamkos re-signed yet (and seems bound for UFA) why is this happening with Drouin?

Maybe it's not a player thing, but an org thing that is making this happen. We simply don't know.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

Drouin did hone his craft with another year in Junior, went to the AHL and was called up for a full season in the NHL putting up respectable rookie numbers as a 19 year old playing in the bottom 6.

He's got his warts, but lets not pretend the guy is the next Daigle here and has no interest in putting in any effort, wanting just to get his paycheck.

Let's not pretend he is the next Kane either.

FYI he spent 2 game in the AHL in '14-'15 and 7 games this year.

While he did have reasonable numbers last year, 3 of his 4 goals and 6 point were the result of PP opportunity.

Therefore he has scored 1 goal and 26 ES points in 70 NHL games, while Lazar at the same age produced 6 goals and 15 points playing out of position resulting in many people believing he should be in the AHL.

IMO Drouin has the ability to be a very productive NHL forward, what I am wondering is does he have the attitude and determination to earn it, or does he want it handed to him.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

I think it's a case of roles. They don't think he's a better option in the top6 currently than Palat or Kilorn, and want more defensive guys in the bottom 6.

Damn, sounds like Cameron, wonder how Drouin would do here?

Fact is he isn't good enough to play in the top six in Tampa.

 

[Liver King]

In your opinion, but obviously not in the opinion of the Lightning coach or GM.

well, hes played 90 NHL games and was sent down for what was supposed to be an AHL stint so I dont really think this is accurate. He can play in the NHL this season and next which is my point.

 

[Micklebot]

Let's no pretend he is the next Kane either.

FYI he spent 2 game in the AHL in '14-'15 and 7 games this year.

So he you're point is he didn't have the drive to hone his craft in the AHL because he was called up? I'm not following you here. You can't blame him for not playing in the AHL last year when he was playing in the NHL.

While he did have reasonable numbers last year, 3 of his 4 goals and 6 point were the result of PP opportunity.

He got PP time because he deserved it. There's value there, why discard that part of the equation?

Therefore he has scored 1 goal and 26 ES points in 70 NHL games, while Lazar at the same age produced 6 goals and 15 points playing out of position resulting in many people believing he should be in the AHL.

IMO Drouin has the ability to be a very productive NHL forward, what I am wondering is does he have the attitude and determination to earn it, or does he want it handed to him.

Lazar got a good chunk of his production last year centering Stone and Hoffman, and besides, 11 more pts is pretty damn significant

Edit: heck, why use Lazar as a comparable, look at what Seguin did as a 19 year old, 19 ES pts in 74 games. Kessel had 24 ES pts in 70 games. Turris had 9 ES pts in 63. Drouin's 19 year old production is nothing to scoff at.

 

[NyQuil]

Damn, sounds like Cameron, wonder how Drouin would do here?

Fact is he isn't good enough to play in the top six in Tampa.

Cameron would probably put him on our third defensive pairing.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

That's fair, although we don't know what's going on behind the scenes. He gets told to go down to the AHL to show get back into game shape and prove he's healthy. They may have said we want you down there for a couple games. If he's getting told one thing and then they are doing something completely different, that's a red flag too. The whole situation in TBay has a lot of question marks. Why did StLouis want out? Why hasn't Stamkos re-signed yet (and seems bound for UFA) why is this happening with Drouin?

Maybe it's not a player thing, but an org thing that is making this happen. We simply don't know.

Not entirely the case.

We know Drouin had requested a trade in November, the reason is unknown.

We also know in the 14 games Drouin played in Oct & Nov he had produced 1 goal and 6 points averaging ~15 minutes through October, then notice a drastic drop off in TOI.

The drop-off likely the basis for the media speculation there was a disagreement over ice time/role.

We also know what Steve said in reference to Drouin's assignment to Syracuse, "We wanted Jonathan to play and play a lot, and that was the sole purpose. It was not officially on a conditioning assignment, but it really was a conditioning assignment to go down and play."

Now his agent, Alan Walsh, isn't a diplomat and had he taken any exception to what Steve was saying he definitely would have offered a response and he didn't.

So while there are likely lots of players unhappy with their roles, very few players on ELCs feel a level of entitlement to the extent they sit out and wait for a trade.

I believe Drouin is a buyer beware case.

 

[Samsquanch]

Just like how Turris had a sense of entitlement?

Drouin is a legit talent. He's done a decent job of translating that to the ice in Tbay in a limited role and still has sky high potential, truthfully his potential is the highest the org has seen since Karlsson.

If there wasn't any risk involved, he a) wouldn't be available, and b) would cost even more than anyone has suggested.

Honestly, not willing to give up Paul for Drouin is insane. I can understand not wanting to move Ceci, or even Chabot, but there comes a point when it just gets absurd how devalued people think the guy is because of a dispute with management. Is Anderson a bad egg because he had a feud with Colorado?

This is right.

I'd personally part with any one of Chabot, White or 2016/2017 lottery protected 1st round picks to get Drouin.

The point I like most is that Drouin, if aquired, could quite possibly be the most talented guy in the organization next to Karlsson.

We need an elite game breaker up front, and you dont get many opportunities to trade for one at this stage of their careers (at a relatively low cost).

I guess it all boils down to your belief in Drouin succeeding as a star in the NHL. I personally think he does it, and makes some people look silly for doubting him in the process.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

So he you're point is he didn't have the drive to hone his craft in the AHL because he was called up? I'm not following you here. You can't blame him for not playing in the AHL last year when he was playing in the NHL.

None of this was the point, it was to quantify/qualify your initial post that suggested he had honed his craft by playing an extra year of junior and in the AHL.

He got PP time because he deserved it. There's value there, why discard that part of the equation?

Not discarding anything, simply looking at what a player produced 5v5 where a majority of their TOI is spent. If a player wants a role in the top six I would think the decision isn't solely based on PPP.

Lazar got a good chunk of his production last year centering Stone and Hoffman, and besides, 11 more pts is pretty damn significant.

Now since you seem to believe Hoffman and Stone carried him, how do you explain 8 of his 9 goals were scored in the 2nd half of the season when Stone was predominantly with Turris and Hoffman with Zibanejad?

Yes 11 points is significant, but points alone don't tell the whole story. If points were the sole indicator of a player's value, Ottawa might have won the Bishop-Conacher trade.

Edit: heck, why use Lazar as a comparable, look at what Seguin did as a 19 year old, 19 ES pts in 74 games. Kessel had 24 ES pts in 70 games. Turris had 9 ES pts in 63. Drouin's 19 year old production is nothing to scoff at.

Can't debate these facts, however there is list of high draft picks that never reached their projected potential, a list headed by Daigle!!

 

[Micklebot]

Not entirely the case.

We know Drouin had requested a trade in November, the reason is unknown.

We also know in the 14 games Drouin played in Oct & Nov he had produced 1 goal and 6 points averaging ~15 minutes through October, then notice a drastic drop off in TOI.

The drop-off likely the basis for the media speculation there was a disagreement over ice time/role.

We also know what Steve said in reference to Drouin's assignment to Syracuse, "We wanted Jonathan to play and play a lot, and that was the sole purpose. It was not officially on a conditioning assignment, but it really was a conditioning assignment to go down and play."

Now his agent, Alan Walsh, isn't a diplomat and had he taken any exception to what Steve was saying he definitely would have offered a response and he didn't.

So while there are likely lots of players unhappy with their roles, very few players on ELCs feel a level of entitlement to the extent they sit out and wait for a trade.

I believe Drouin is a buyer beware case.

Holdouts in general don't really happen ever since the 2005 CBA. Nothing to do with ELC, when was the last time a signed player held out (ie not an RFA waiting for a contract, easy answer I guess is wikstrand, but other than him?). That's why I suspect there is more to this than meets the eye.

If drive was an issue, Tbay would likely have found a way to quietly move him before the trade request got leaked. I think the only reason he hasn't been moved yet is because they still strongly believe in him long term and still value him as a legit top end prospect.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

None of this was the point, it was to quantify/qualify your initial post that suggested he had honed his craft by playing an extra year of junior and in the AHL.



Not discarding anything, simply looking at what a player produced 5v5 where a majority of their TOI is spent. If a player wants a role in the top six I would think the decision isn't solely based on PPP.



Now since you seem to believe Hoffman and Stone carried him, how do you explain 8 of his 9 goals were scored in the 2nd half of the season when Stone was predominantly with Turris and Hoffman with Zibanejad?

Yes 11 points is significant, but points alone don't tell the whole story. If points were the sole indicator of a player's value, Ottawa might have won the Bishop-Conacher trade.



Can't debate these facts, however there is list of high draft picks that never reached their projected potential, a list headed by Daigle!!

To comment on your last paragraph. How is that a list of people that didn't reach their potential. Kessel was an elite scorer. Seguin one of the best point producers in the NHL. Turris is a number 1 center. Not elite but that's not due to work ethic or attitude it's due to size.

If drouin is comparable or will have comparable careers to any of those listed. Get him now.

 

[Micklebot]

None of this was the point, it was to quantify/qualify your initial post that suggested he had honed his craft by playing an extra year of junior and in the AHL.

He did play a year in junior though, and he was good enough that he was called up early in his 19 yr old year. The whole premise you had was that others would be willing to hone their craft at lower levels, suggesting he would not, but the reality is he spent the time and was called up when he was ready.

Not discarding anything, simply looking at what a player produced 5v5 where a majority of their TOI is spent. If a player wants a role in the top six I would think the decision isn't solely based on PPP.

Ok, in his ES TOI he was just shy of 2 pts per 60, more than double Lazar.

Now since you seem to believe Hoffman and Stone carried him, how do you explain 8 of his 9 goals were scored in the 2nd half of the season when Stone was predominantly with Turris and Hoffman with Zibanejad?

He only scored 6 goals all season, what the heck are you talking about? He tallied a good quarter of his pts in about 150 mins playing with those two (stone/hoffman). When the team went on it's run, he found some chemistry with Pageau and Condra, and scored at about 1/2 the rate per 60 mins as he did with Stone and Hoffman.

Yes 11 points is significant, but points alone don't tell the whole story. If points were the sole indicator of a player's value, Ottawa might have won the Bishop-Conacher trade.

Do you think Conacher is remotely comparable to Drouin? If so, no wonder you're not interested.

Can't debate these facts, however there is list of high draft picks that never reached their projected potential, a list headed by Daigle!!

Yes, because Daigle is relevant here. A player who had zero interest in playing hockey. On the other side, we have Drouin who it's being claimed is holding out because he want's a bigger role.

 

[Micklebot]

To comment on your last paragraph. How is that a list of people that didn't reach their potential. Kessel was an elite scorer. Seguin one of the best point producers in the NHL. Turris is a number 1 center. Not elite but that's not due to work ethic or attitude it's due to size.

If drouin is comparable or will have comparable careers to any of those listed. Get him now.

He's suggesting there is a different list, ie not Kessel, Seguin ect, but Daigle, Stefan, Yakupov I guess, ect.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

This is right.

I'd personally part with any one of Chabot, White or 2016/2017 lottery protected 1st round picks to get Drouin.

The point I like most is that Drouin, if aquired, could quite possibly be the most talented guy in the organization next to Karlsson.

We need an elite game breaker up front, and you dont get many opportunities to trade for one at this stage of their careers (at a relatively low cost).

I guess it all boils down to your belief in Drouin succeeding as a star in the NHL. I personally think he does it, and makes some people look silly for doubting him in the process.

It is a risk vs reward decision IMO.

I have no problem if the Sens acquire Drouin, however I do not agree the decision is based solely on whether or not he will reach his potential.

Fact is the Sens score enough goals to be a playoff team now, their problem has been their ability to defend.

Therefore Claesson, Wikstrand, Ceci and Chabot shouldn't be included in a trade for Drouin, simply because it further exposes the biggest weakness the team is currently faced with.

The Senators depth is at the forward position, though somewhat limited in upper end skill, so acquiring Drouin from this point of view makes a lot of sense.

However the Sens must assume Drouin would be no happier playing 3rd line minutes in Ottawa than he was in Tampa, so would need to open a spot in the top six.

This suggests Hoffman or MacArthur likely needs to be traded, unless of course Murray is willing to pay over $4M for a third line LW.

Since Tampa already has cap pressure, I doubt Steve would want either of these two in a return for Drouin.

So IMO this leaves the trade candidates as being Prince, Puempel, Lazar, Paul, McCormick, Dzingel, White and draft picks.

Whether StevieY would bite on a package consisting of a combination of these players I have no idea, but the one player on the list that is potentially the most valuable is Nick Paul.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Cameron would probably put him on our third defensive pairing.

He definitely seems like Cameron's kind of player. Boro ... Drouin ....same mold really.

I am glad Cameron isn't picking our team

 

[Burrowsaurus]

It is a risk vs reward decision IMO.

I have no problem if the Sens acquire Drouin, however I do not agree the decision is based solely on whether or not he will reach his potential.

Fact is the Sens score enough goals to be a playoff team now, their problem has been their ability to defend.

Therefore Claesson, Wikstrand, Ceci and Chabot shouldn't be included in a trade for Drouin, simply because it further exposes the biggest weakness the team is currently faced with.

The Senators depth is at the forward position, though somewhat limited in upper end skill, so acquiring Drouin from this point of view makes a lot of sense.

However the Sens must assume Drouin would be no happier playing 3rd line minutes in Ottawa than he was in Tampa, so would need to open a spot in the top six.

This suggests Hoffman or MacArthur likely needs to be traded, unless of course Murray is willing to pay over $4M for a third line LW.

Since Tampa already has cap pressure, I doubt Steve would want either of these two in a return for Drouin.

So IMO this leaves the trade candidates as being Prince, Puempel, Lazar, Paul, McCormick, Dzingel, White and draft picks.

Whether StevieY would bite on a package consisting of a combination of these players I have no idea, but the one player on the list that is potentially the most valuable is Nick Paul.

Yzermna would love white.