Prospect Info: Nick Paul

[Sens of Anarchy]

Yzermna would love white.

That's cuz Yzerman knows hockey and what it takes to build winners

 

[Micklebot]

It is a risk vs reward decision IMO.

I have no problem if the Sens acquire Drouin, however I do not agree the decision is based solely on whether or not he will reach his potential.

Fact is the Sens score enough goals to be a playoff team now, their problem has been their ability to defend.

Therefore Claesson, Wikstrand, Ceci and Chabot shouldn't be included in a trade for Drouin, simply because it further exposes the biggest weakness the team is currently faced with.

The Senators depth is at the forward position, though somewhat limited in upper end skill, so acquiring Drouin from this point of view makes a lot of sense.

However the Sens must assume Drouin would be no happier playing 3rd line minutes in Ottawa than he was in Tampa, so would need to open a spot in the top six.

This suggests Hoffman or MacArthur likely needs to be traded, unless of course Murray is willing to pay over $4M for a third line LW.

Since Tampa already has cap pressure, I doubt Steve would want either of these two in a return for Drouin.

So IMO this leaves the trade candidates as being Prince, Puempel, Lazar, Paul, McCormick, Dzingel, White and draft picks.

Whether StevieY would bite on a package consisting of a combination of these players I have no idea, but the one player on the list that is potentially the most valuable is Nick Paul.

None of the bold Dmen have played significant time in the NHL, how exactly would their inclusion in a trade further exposes the biggest weakness the team is currently faced with? The answer, it wouldn't. Moreover, the trade for Phaneuf was done to address that very weakness.

I'd suggest that coaching and the forwards are the issue in our team defensive play at this point (the latter I imagine you'd agree with given your comments about Martin as a coach). Imo, Karlsson, Methot, Phaneuf and Ceci have the talent to be a very effective top 4. Filling in the bottom pair with 10 mins a game of two of Wier, Wideman, Boro should not turn a team into one of the worst defensive groups out there.

Now, Drouin won't fix our forwards defensive play, but if he can cut it in a top 6 role, we can have 3 scoring lines with Hoffman-Turris-Ryan, Drouin-Zibanejad-Ryan, MacArthur-Pageau-Lazar. Heck, even a Dzingel-Paul-Neil/Chiasson or whoever would be good for the 4th line if Paul isn't include, if he is, just use Smith there.

The downside is were spending a lot on MacArthur to be a 3rd liner, but swap him and Drouin if you want and use Drouin like we used Havlat; scoring 3rd liner with PP time.

The other notable thing acquiring Drouin does is makes Puempel, and Prince expendable, which means we can trade them from a position of strength.

Drouin isn't a guy we should acquire at all costs, I agree that there is risk there, but there is tons of upside, as he has the skill set that could have him become our best forward. There's very little reason to be shy of including any prospect in a trade for him, particularly any prospect not named Chabot or White.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

He did play a year in junior though, and he was good enough that he was called up early in his 19 yr old year. The whole premise you had was that others would be willing to hone their craft at lower levels, suggesting he would not, but the reality is he spent the time and was called up when he was ready.

I am not suggesting anything, just looking at the facts.

Fact is Drouin was reassigned to the AHL and seven games later went home.

Now if that shows a willingness to hone their craft it sure isn't obvious.

Fact is young players are called up and reassigned regularly, being called up doesn't mean he was ready.

Ok, in his ES TOI he was just shy of 2 pts per 60, more than double Lazar.

Never suggested Drouin didn't produced more points than Lazar, was using Lazar solely as a benchmark.

An important part of the comparison was to point out many on this forum wanted Lazar in the AHL because they believed he wasn't performing.

So Drouin produced more points, but he also had 59.5% of his starts in the O-Zone, which is an indication of his usage and the coach's concern about his defensive awareness.

Lazar had 47.7% of his starts the O-Zone which suggests his was not in an offensive and potentially narrowed the production gap had be been used differently.

He only scored 6 goals all season, what the heck are you talking about? He tallied a good quarter of his pts in about 150 mins playing with those two (stone/hoffman). When the team went on it's run, he found some chemistry with Pageau and Condra, and scored at about 1/2 the rate per 60 mins as he did with Stone and Hoffman.

Mistype, my mistake on the # of goals.

Lazar produced 2 goals between Oct - Dec, then 4 over the last 3 months playing predominately without Stone or Hoffman.

Do you think Conacher is remotely comparable to Drouin? If so, no wonder you're not interested.

No I don't, but I vividly remember how many on this board were wildly claiming Conacher was a top six winger.

I believe Drouin has significantly more offensive skill and if he had Conacher's determination and drive I wouldn't have any concern whatsoever in acquiring him.

My concern is he took his ball and went home when he couldn't get his way.

Yes, because Daigle is relevant here. A player who had zero interest in playing hockey. On the other side, we have Drouin who it's being claimed is holding out because he want's a bigger role.

As relevant as your examples.

Drouin holding out???

Let's be honest, Drouin isn't holding out, he is refusing to honor a contract he signed.

How exactly is that comparable to a player that decides to withhold his services until he has a signed contract?

In case you missed it, Drouin is doing exactly what Yashin did and I was glad to see him gone.

 

[playasRus]

How exactly is that comparable to a player that decides to withhold his services until he has a signed contract?

In case you missed it, Drouin is doing exactly what Yashin did and I was glad to see him gone.

I think Drouin is doing it for playing time and on a different level, his development because he doesn't think he can develop playing on the bottom lines. This to me just shows that he's immature and feels entitled.

Yashin sat out for money. Part of it was because Daigle was being paid more while doing less. So Yashin had a MUCH stronger argument, although not in good faith of his contract, for why he sat out. If Yashin was not our leading scorer and pulled that crap, he'd have been buried, but he knew that a team looking to win for the first time in it's existence, would cave for it's leading scorer. And it's not like his career was going to end there if things went south with OTtawa. Other teams would pay him as he'd already proven to be an elite scorer.

Yashin was smart in that he knew he had leverage. Drouin's choices, I agree with you, make no sense and his career and reputation are going to suffer for it.

 

[Micklebot]

I am not suggesting anything, just looking at the facts.

Fact is Drouin was reassigned to the AHL and seven games later went home.

Now if that shows a willingness to hone their craft it sure isn't obvious.

Fact is young players are called up and reassigned regularly, being called up doesn't mean he was ready.

The 70 games he played producing from the bottom 6 are what showed he was ready.

Never suggested Drouin didn't produced more points than Lazar, was using Lazar solely as a benchmark.

An important part of the comparison was to point out many on this forum wanted Lazar in the AHL because they believed he wasn't performing.

And Drouin produced almost double what he did. I don't get how this is a useful benchmark

So Drouin produced more points, but he also had 59.5% of his starts in the O-Zone, which is an indication of his usage and the coach's concern about his defensive awareness.

Lazar had 47.7% of his starts the O-Zone which suggests his was not in an offensive and potentially narrowed the production gap had be been used differently.

Or, it shows that the coach realized that Lazar isn't an offensive threat, and Drouin is, so they tried to maximize the assets.

As far as production narrowed by zone starts, we are talking about 29 more OZ starts. Not really much to speak of when you look at the facts. I do agree Lazar was certainly trusted more defensively, which is pretty much the only reason he wasn't sent down to the minors.

Mistype, my mistake on the # of goals.

Lazar produced 2 goals between Oct - Dec, then 4 over the last 3 months playing predominately without Stone or Hoffman.

Big issue here is that with a guy that doesn't shoot much, goals isn't a reliable measurement of how he's playing. He was actually shooting more pre-allstar break per game. Puck luck could very well be a large part of the difference.

No I don't, but I vividly remember how many on this board were wildly claiming Conacher was a top six winger.

Yep, sometimes people can get caught dreaming. The difference is that Drouin has the skill to back up the claim.

I believe Drouin has significantly more offensive skill and if he had Conacher's determination and drive I wouldn't have any concern whatsoever in acquiring him.

My concern is he took his ball and went home when he couldn't get his way.

And if he didn't the asking price would be way higher.

As relevant as your examples.

Not even in the slightest.

Drouin holding out???

Let's be honest, Drouin isn't holding out, he is refusing to honor a contract he signed.

How exactly is that comparable to a player that decides to withhold his services until he has a signed contract?

I agree, it's different. Which is why the simple answer is that something more is at play. You believe it's a sense of entitlement, I think it may be a case of a player getting messed around with. Tbay has now a history of player management disputes in recent times, and where there's smoke....

In case you missed it, Drouin is doing exactly what Yashin did and I was glad to see him gone.

Yashin wanted more money, Drouin wants to play. Do you not see a difference?

 

[Holdurbreathe]

None of the bold Dmen have played significant time in the NHL, how exactly would their inclusion in a trade further exposes the biggest weakness the team is currently faced with? The answer, it wouldn't. Moreover, the trade for Phaneuf was done to address that very weakness.

I'd suggest that coaching and the forwards are the issue in our team defensive play at this point (the latter I imagine you'd agree with given your comments about Martin as a coach). Imo, Karlsson, Methot, Phaneuf and Ceci have the talent to be a very effective top 4. Filling in the bottom pair with 10 mins a game of two of Wier, Wideman, Boro should not turn a team into one of the worst defensive groups out there.

Now, Drouin won't fix our forwards defensive play, but if he can cut it in a top 6 role, we can have 3 scoring lines with Hoffman-Turris-Ryan, Drouin-Zibanejad-Ryan, MacArthur-Pageau-Lazar. Heck, even a Dzingel-Paul-Neil/Chiasson or whoever would be good for the 4th line if Paul isn't include, if he is, just use Smith there.

The downside is were spending a lot on MacArthur to be a 3rd liner, but swap him and Drouin if you want and use Drouin like we used Havlat; scoring 3rd liner with PP time.

The other notable thing acquiring Drouin does is makes Puempel, and Prince expendable, which means we can trade them from a position of strength.

Drouin isn't a guy we should acquire at all costs, I agree that there is risk there, but there is tons of upside, as he has the skill set that could have him become our best forward. There's very little reason to be shy of including any prospect in a trade for him, particularly any prospect not named Chabot or White.

I jumped into this discussion only because I felt there was a lack of balance being offered in this discussion.

I realize Drouin is the new shiny toy that is available, but a shiny toy alone does not make a team.

The Senators have a significant weakness and lack of skilled depth in the D position.

Therefore trading away Ceci or Chabot for a forward must have minimal risk, tremendous upside and a viable plan to fill the hole(s) left after the trade.

IMO Drouin doesn't meet the essential criteria, he isn't minimal risk and in the short term at least isn't a huge upgrade over MacArthur or Hoffman IMO. Then of course his recent decision to not honor his contract is a huge concern.

While I have no idea what Tampa wants in return for Drouin, if it is as steep as what MacKenzie and other media types have suggested (as well as some on this board) I can only hope the Senators pass.

I say this realizing Drouin could turn out to be a highly productive LW in the NHL, but decisions aren't made based on hindsight, just on the facts that are available.

PS: This ends my part in the Drouin discussion, hope my opinions didn't annoy you too too much

 

[Micklebot]

I jumped into this discussion only because I felt there was a lack of balance being offered in this discussion.

I realize Drouin is the new shiny toy that is available, but a shiny toy alone does not make a team.

The Senators have a significant weakness and lack of skilled depth in the D position.

Therefore trading away Ceci or Chabot for a forward must have minimal risk, tremendous upside and a viable plan to fill the hole(s) left after the trade.

IMO Drouin doesn't meet the essential criteria, he isn't minimal risk and in the short term at least isn't a huge upgrade over MacArthur or Hoffman IMO. Then of course his recent decision to not honor his contract is a huge concern.

While I have no idea what Tampa wants in return for Drouin, if it is as steep as what MacKenzie and other media types have suggested (as well as some on this board) I can only hope the Senators pass.

I say this realizing Drouin could turn out to be a highly productive LW in the NHL, but decisions aren't made based on hindsight, just on the facts that are available.

PS: This ends my part in the Drouin discussion, hope my opinions didn't annoy you too too much

I think we both agree it's a risk/reward proposition, but just disagree on the degree of risk and reward.

No problem with posters that have differing opinions, I don't think you've in anyway been unreasonable, so it's all good, hope you feel the same.

I think a move for Drouin will probably need one piece we don't want to give up (Chabot, White, 1st round pick, Ceci). Anymore than one of them and I have serious reservations myself. Where I have an issue is when people suggest we should only offer scraps and B level pieces (Paul, Prince, Puempel, 2nd round picks, Wikstrand, ect), and it's further disconcerting when there are reservations about even giving up guys like Paul (who I quite like).

I'd rather not move Ceci or White, but to me the rest is available, and I really like Chabot.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

I don't think yzerman is very good at dealing with people.

Stankos St. Louis. Drouin. Too much

 

[Ron Jeremy]

Stay away from the small, one dimensional, soft Drouin. We need to get bigger & meaner up front. Our top 6 is so soft it's embarrassing.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

And if he didn't the asking price would be way higher.

Wrong, he wouldn't be on the trade market, and the reason he is makes a huge difference and is my biggest concern.

Yashin wanted more money, Drouin wants to play. Do you not see a difference?

Yashin claimed he was promised the opportunity to renegotiate. When Bryden refused he went home.

IMO he should have honored his contract and taken whatever legal action was available, it cost him a year for nothing.

Drouin doesn't want to play or he wouldn't be sitting at home.

What Drouin wants is to play on a team with 19 other players that are performing the role the coach has assigned them, yet he wants to be an exception and decide his role for himself.

I hope you see the difference.

There are usually two sides to a debate and depending on the importance we place on the facts at hand, there can be a wide gap in the resulting opinions.

While I can't categorically say you are wrong in your opinions regarding Drouin and Tampa Bay, you can't honestly say you are categorically right either.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Stay away from the small, one dimensional, soft Drouin. We need to get bigger & meaner up front. Our top 6 is so soft it's embarrassing.

Let's worry about talent first.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

I don't think yzerman is very good at dealing with people.

Stankos St. Louis. Drouin. Too much

On the flip side, St Louis demanding a trade because Yzerman didn't include him on the Team Canada roster is Steve's fault?

Stamkos isn't settled yet and I won't be surprised if that is where he ends up signing.

Drouin went home, what else is there to say. Is Yzerman supposed to fire a successful coach because a rookie is pouting?

 

[Holdurbreathe]

Let's worry about talent first.

Need both size and talent, ideally in the same package!!!!

I really wouldn't want to see the Montreal Smurfs reincarnated in Ottawa.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Need both size and talent, ideally in the same package!!!!

I really wouldn't want to see the Montreal Smurfs reincarnated in Ottawa.

Okay but people automatically assume "small" when speaking about "skill". Our top 6 isn't that small. Zibanejad Ryan stone.

Drouin also has an edge. I wouldn't hold off on high end talent just because their height

 

[Agent Zub]

I love Chabot, but I think I would trade him for Drouin. There's some really good D slated to go around our draft spot.

Jakob Chychrun, Olli Juolevi, Mikhail Sergachyov, Jake Bean are all Chabot level D.

I don't think I see a Drouin level forward.

But trading him for our first would be cool too. The important thing is that Drouin helps our team now. We need to stop wasting Karlsson's prime years.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I don't think yzerman is very good at dealing with people.

Stankos St. Louis. Drouin. Too much

Maybe ... I have no inside info on that.

I think he takes a stance and is hard to move off it. Not sure if that makes him not good with people.

He has a job to do and has tough decisions to make to the betterment of his team.

 

[HavlatMach9]

St. Louis wanted to play for team Canada, Yzerman probably didn't have him on the team.

Drouin is probably his on ice treatment

Stamkos is a UFA and mb it's a case of not being able to agree on the contract

 

[Burrowsaurus]

I love Chabot, but I think I would trade him for Drouin. There's some really good D slated to go around our draft spot.

Jakob Chychrun, Olli Juolevi, Mikhail Sergachyov, Jake Bean are all Chabot level D.

I don't think I see a Drouin level forward.

But trading him for our first would be cool too. The important thing is that Drouin helps our team now. We need to stop wasting Karlsson's prime years.

Yeah if we draft serv chychrun juolevi I will trade one of them or chabot for drouin.

 

[Hale The Villain]

I love Chabot, but I think I would trade him for Drouin. There's some really good D slated to go around our draft spot.

Jakob Chychrun, Olli Juolevi, Mikhail Sergachyov, Jake Bean are all Chabot level D.

I don't think I see a Drouin level forward.

But trading him for our first would be cool too. The important thing is that Drouin helps our team now. We need to stop wasting Karlsson's prime years.

Chychrun and Sergachev? Sure. Juolevi is almost a Chabot clone, but doesn't have as much offensive upside. Bean is a tier below Chabot in his draft year.

I could see all three of Chychrun, Sergachev and Juolevi being taken ahead of where we select. A number of scouting services have all three in the top 10, and I think it's much more likely we finish outside of the top 10 than inside it.

Outside of Chabot and maybe Englund we have no D prospects that project to be top 4 defensemen. Trading Chabot without first securing a replacement would be very ill-advised.

 

[lafite]

Let's worry about talent first.

White has size and talent. I wouldn't trade him for Drouin, who I think is a bit of a primma donna. There are some types of players who have to put up big points or they won't succeed in the NHL. Drouin is one, and should put up the points, but i don't think it is a given. White could always play an honest 3rd or 4th line role if he couldn't produce big numbers, much like Lazar is doing now. I think Paul will be useful one way or the other also.

 

[Sens Rule]

On the flip side, St Louis demanding a trade because Yzerman didn't include him on the Team Canada roster is Steve's fault?

Stamkos isn't settled yet and I won't be surprised if that is where he ends up signing.

Drouin went home, what else is there to say. Is Yzerman supposed to fire a successful coach because a rookie is pouting?

Just talking on Yzerman.... And Drouin. And Cooper

That relationship needs to solved if they aren't trading him before the offseason. If Tampa is goimg to go deep... drouin sitting as Tampa goes into the playoffs and injuries happen. Would be such a waste.

Maybe Yzerman is trying to repair the relationship and not trade him.

It might happen. I never thought Yashin would play here again. Tolled. Off a year. And he played. And we got Chara and Spezza for him.

Who knows how Drouin situation turns out?

 

[Burrowsaurus]

White has size and talent. I wouldn't trade him for Drouin, who I think is a bit of a primma donna. There are some types of players who have to put up big points or they won't succeed in the NHL. Drouin is one, and should put up the points, but i don't think it is a given. White could always play an honest 3rd or 4th line role if he couldn't produce big numbers, much like Lazar is doing now. I think Paul will be useful one way or the other also.

Well I'll Give up any honest 3rd 4th line players for drouin. I know you're not saying white is destined to be just that. But just to say. If you think there's a good chance white or lazar end up as these bottom 6 guys. You trade them immediately when there value is high.

 

[lafite]

Well I'll Give up any honest 3rd 4th line players for drouin. I know you're not saying white is destined to be just that. But just to say. If you think there's a good chance white or lazar end up as these bottom 6 guys. You trade them immediately when there value is high.

Well, I'm not saying that exactly. White is leading Boston College in scoring at over a point a game as a 19 year old. He has size, and everybody has good things to say about his character. I don't know about Lazar, but another character guy, and after all, every team needs a 3rd and 4th line, and the good teams have good ones
. Don't know about Paul yet, but I like what I see so far. Guys like Prince and Puempel, I think are running out of time.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Keeping a close eye on paul tonight. Definitely not a guy I would give up for Johnny drouin straight up. Tampa better add...........................................::::................

 

[aragorn]

Stay away from the small, one dimensional, soft Drouin. We need to get bigger & meaner up front. Our top 6 is so soft it's embarrassing.

Okay but people automatically assume "small" when speaking about "skill". Our top 6 isn't that small. Zibanejad Ryan stone.

Drouin also has an edge. I wouldn't hold off on high end talent just because their height

I don't think Stone is soft but the other two IMO are not exactly what I would call tough, physical or gritty.

Well I'll Give up any honest 3rd 4th line players for drouin. I know you're not saying white is destined to be just that. But just to say. If you think there's a good chance white or lazar end up as these bottom 6 guys. You trade them immediately when there value is high.

You know a lot of people on here thought that Filatov was this highly skilled top line 60 pt player & he turned into a mediocre KHL player. There was also hope for Petersson, remember he was going to be on a line with Spezza for the next decade & Conacher was a 50 pt player for some. I just don't see any evidence that Drouin is going to be a superstar in the NHL, my guess is he may never make it to the NHL & could end up in Europe or the KHL.

A number of people on here think Prince should be playing & yet the coach doesn't think so for some reason & I would think he wouldn't like Drouin either who is defensively irresponsible. I would rather go after a sure NHL player like Okposo who has an NHL resume than take a risk & lose assets for an unknown.

Keeping a close eye on paul tonight. Definitely not a guy I would give up for Johnny drouin straight up. Tampa better add...........................................::::................

Oh thank god I read this a second time I almost lost my mind, I actually thought you were saying to trade Paul for Drouin. I like what I see from Paul so far, I have high hopes for this guy.