NHL Vegas wants to buy AHL team and move it to LV

[JMCx4]

So the Ice Hogs are owned by the city.

(1) How is the city doing financially? ACCORDING TO THEIR LATEST AVAILABLE COMPREHENSIVE ANNUAL FINANCIAL REPORT (2018), THE CITY IS DOING RELATIVELY WELL.

(2) How do citizens feel about this ownership? I mean citizens, not really fans. TOUGH TO JUDGE FROM THE OUTSIDE. I COULDN'T FIND ANY WEB REPORTS OF RECENT PUBLIC OBJECTIONS TO THE CITY OWNING THE ICEHOGS, THOUGH THE ORIGINAL FRANCHISE PURCHASE IN 2007 REPORTEDLY DID STIR UP SOME CONTROVERSY. MAYBE FORUMS MEMBERS WHO LIVE IN OR NEAR ROCKFORD CAN CHIME IN WITH LOCAL INTEL. ROCKFORD NEWSPAPER REPORTS OVER THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS INDICATE THAT THE REVENUE BROUGHT TO THE CITY BY THE ICEHOGS IS A KEY ELEMENT TO THE OVERALL DEVELOPMENT & SUSTAINMENT OF THE ROCKFORD DOWNTOWN AREA; SO THAT'S A CHECK IN THE "PROS" COLUMN FOR THE CITY HOLDING ON TO THE TEAM.

(3) How does the city feel about whatever demands the Blackhawks might make upon it to improve the arena? THE LAST SIGNIFICANT UPGRADE PROJECT FOR BMO HARRIS BANK CENTER IN ROCKFORD WAS IN 2013. I COULD FIND NO WEB EVIDENCE OF THOSE RENOVATIONS BEING DEMANDED BY THE BLACKHAWKS, AND THE COMPLETION WAS NEARLY 3 YEARS IN ADVANCE OF THE BLACKHAWKS SIGNING A 5-YEAR AFFILIATION EXTENSION WITH THE ICEHOGS. SINCE THE HAWKS ARE NOT FINANCIALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ROCKFORD AHL TEAM OPS (BEYOND THEIR PORTION OF CONTRACTED PLAYER SALARIES), I WOULD THINK THE NHL TEAM'S DEMANDS WOULD STILL BE MET BY THE 2013 UPGRADES. BUT WITH THE AFFILIATION EXTENSION EXPIRING AT THE END OF NEXT SEASON, THERE MAY BE FURTHER PRESSURE ON THE CITY TO DO MORE TO THE ARENA TO SATISFY THE HAWKS' LATEST WISHES FOR THEIR PROSPECTS.

Points worth pursuing. That makes Rockford an odd team in a different situation than nearly everyone else.

My responses to your questions are embedded in the copy of your post just above. I'M NOT SHOUTING - just trying to distinguish questions from responses.

 

[GindyDraws]

From what I heard the indiana farmers coliseum got a massive renovation but it isn’t exactly state of the art maybe @crimsonace can clarify.

I can explain what they did.

The Indiana Farmers Coliseum renovation saw them gut the building, chisel deeper into the existing stone framework so they could make adjustments, and then apply modern plumbing, sound, safety features, and seating. It was a roughly two year process that kept the exterior the same, but the interior is much different than it used to. The old look was like a big barn; airy, drafty, and there were broken windows towards the top of the structure. It still has that big barn look, but the interior looks more modern, although they didn't go 21st century with the bowl layout. It does feature ribbon graphics that wrap around the base of the 300 section area as well as removable seats for hockey and basketball. As a regular Indy Fuel goer and someone who attended an AEW Dynamite show at the place, it's a decent venue, but an AHL Indianapolis team would have to sell out every single game to sniff close to the top 5 in AHL attendance every season and maintain a 5000 average for the top 15.

 

[CupInSIX]

@Barclay Donaldson they have a 5 year deal with the Wolves, with an out clause after 3 seasons.

They also had enough prospects/depth players to fill an AHL roster the past 2 years after the Blues switched affiliations.

McGinn, Loewen, Wong, Wagner and Weis are the only Wolves regulars over the past 2 seasons not signed by VGK.

 

[CBlake]

If the NHL had simply made the travel days the come between callups and being sent down exempt from the cap, thus they do not count, would we have still seen all this desire to have your AHL team in your own backyard as we saw with the creation of Pacific Division?

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

If the NHL had simply made the travel days the come between callups and being sent down exempt from the cap, thus they do not count, would we have still seen all this desire to have your AHL team in your own backyard as we saw with the creation of Pacific Division?

yes, the impetus was once LA/SJ boarded that train, the days of the western affiliates in eastern markets were numbered and the groundwork was fired when Anaheim fired the shot after the Cincinnati split between the Ducks and Cyclones occurred, it's a wonder Cincinnati survived that

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

Their best option of all is to buy Calgary's affiliate, Second is buying Florida's affiliate, Third is the New Jerseys affiliate, and moving it to either Salt Lake City or the Las Vegas area.

One of those teams easily takes over the Chicago Wolves, but the purpose of the Chicago Wolves back with the Atlanta Thrashers was because there are literally always flights from Atlanta to Chicago like Vegas and Chicago. But if I were to pick I'd go with the New Jersey Devils going with the Chicago Wolves and Vegas taking their affiliate.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Their best option of all is to buy Calgary's affiliate, Second is buying Florida's affiliate, Third is the New Jerseys affiliate, and moving it to either Salt Lake City or the Las Vegas area.

One of those teams easily takes over the Chicago Wolves, but the purpose of the Chicago Wolves back with the Atlanta Thrashers was because there are literally always flights from Atlanta to Chicago like Vegas and Chicago. But if I were to pick I'd go with the New Jersey Devils going with the Chicago Wolves and Vegas taking their affiliate.

except Binghamton, Springfield, nor Stockton, are going ANYWHERE, and Calgary does leave Stockton, they're not coming East..... Utah IS A NOPE, good luck forcing the Grizzlies out the same way Idaho HAD been thrown in the Seattle process

 

[Centrum Hockey]

Their best option of all is to buy Calgary's affiliate, Second is buying Florida's affiliate, Third is the New Jerseys affiliate, and moving it to either Salt Lake City or the Las Vegas area.

One of those teams easily takes over the Chicago Wolves, but the purpose of the Chicago Wolves back with the Atlanta Thrashers was because there are literally always flights from Atlanta to Chicago like Vegas and Chicago. But if I were to pick I'd go with the New Jersey Devils going with the Chicago Wolves and Vegas taking their affiliate.

Springfield has made a turn around as a AHL market why whould Florida want to move their prospects to the central time zone and father away from their NHL Division opponent’s .

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

Springfield has made a turn around as a AHL market why whould Florida want to move their prospects to the central time zone and father away from their NHL opponent’s .

Because I believe Miami and Chicago always have flights going back and forth. The reason Atlanta and Chicago were affiliated, which is why Vegas and Chicago are a good pair. New Jersey I imagine could go to JFK, but Calgary does have some one-way to Chicago, but the thing is they're not always one-way like those ones.

 

[210]

If the NHL had simply made the travel days the come between callups and being sent down exempt from the cap, thus they do not count, would we have still seen all this desire to have your AHL team in your own backyard as we saw with the creation of Pacific Division?

Probably not. Several of the west coast teams tried to do just that in the past while coming up with CBA proposals but many of the eastern owners, the teams with AHL affiliates close by, were against it.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

@Barclay Donaldson they have a 5 year deal with the Wolves, with an out clause after 3 seasons.

They also had enough prospects/depth players to fill an AHL roster the past 2 years after the Blues switched affiliations.

McGinn, Loewen, Wong, Wagner and Weis are the only Wolves regulars over the past 2 seasons not signed by VGK.

They had enough depth players to fill an AHL roster after year 1. However, most of them were experienced depth players and not prospects. That's the Wolves wanting to win the Calder Cup and Vegas signing those players to contracts. The Daniel Carrs, TJ Tynans, Brooks Maceks, Curtis McKenzies, Teemu Pilkkinen, and the rest not named Pirri or Glass were signed to get their affiliate a Calder. As of last year, only three drafted Vegas players had played more than a few games with the Knights. And knowing the Wolves' policy of win first, develop later...

Their best option of all is to buy Calgary's affiliate, Second is buying Florida's affiliate, Third is the New Jerseys affiliate, and moving it to either Salt Lake City or the Las Vegas area.

One of those teams easily takes over the Chicago Wolves, but the purpose of the Chicago Wolves back with the Atlanta Thrashers was because there are literally always flights from Atlanta to Chicago like Vegas and Chicago. But if I were to pick I'd go with the New Jersey Devils going with the Chicago Wolves and Vegas taking their affiliate.

Calgary's is reasonable. The other two are so far away from rational thought that I'm curious if you're actually being serious.

Florida's affiliate in Springfield is not going to the West Coast. They have ownership every bit as committed as the Wolves and are not going to sell. It's also the same city as the AHL HQ and they have an agenda of keeping a AHL team in that city, and there has been since the inception of the league. Springfield is also a bus trip away from every single Eastern conference partner save for one. Chicago is not. Springfield allows Florida to prioritize prospect development over game results. Chicago would not. all-up times are three hour non-stop flights so that's a wash. Everything favors Springfield.

Where does one even pull out New Jersey? Binghamton is 3 hours away by car. Fifty bucks for gas or maybe a personal driver is much cheaper than flying. Binghamton offers even more amiable travel than Springfield. Devils are also sticklers about running their own organization, and that isn't compatible with how the Wolves operate.

Vegas works (or worked) well with Chicago because O'Hare is down the street from the Wolves Arena, and offers cheap 3 hour non-stop flights to Vegas every day. They could call a player up in the morning and have him in the practice facility by that afternoon.

If the NHL had simply made the travel days the come between callups and being sent down exempt from the cap, thus they do not count, would we have still seen all this desire to have your AHL team in your own backyard as we saw with the creation of Pacific Division?

It would have still happened. It may not have been as quick as the rush we saw, but once the NHL started concentrating on building through the draft it was inevitable. Gone were the days of building championship teams through free agency, in to stay are the days of scouting, drafting, and developing. Building through the draft is now the model every NHL team uses.

 

[ek93]

Where does one even pull out New Jersey? Binghamton is 3 hours away by car. Fifty bucks for gas or maybe a personal driver is much cheaper than flying. Binghamton offers even more amiable travel than Springfield. Devils are also sticklers about running their own organization, and that isn't compatible with how the Wolves operate.

Well put.

 

[CupInSIX]

They had enough depth players to fill an AHL roster after year 1. However, most of them were experienced depth players and not prospects. That's the Wolves wanting to win the Calder Cup and Vegas signing those players to contracts. The Daniel Carrs, TJ Tynans, Brooks Maceks, Curtis McKenzies, Teemu Pilkkinen, and the rest not named Pirri or Glass were signed to get their affiliate a Calder. As of last year, only three drafted Vegas players had played more than a few games with the Knights. And knowing the Wolves' policy of win first, develop later...

Pulkkinen didn't play in the AHL last season. He was an expansion draft selection, and he was sent down year 1 and I'm not sure he was even qualified for year 2 so he went to the KHL.

Macek, Carr and Pirri were signed for 1 year to be depth for the NHL club. VGK scout Kelly Kisio had Macek on his team when he was the GM of the Hitmen. Guys like Tynan and Hyka were signed for 2 years during year 1, again, to compete for the NHL and Hyka was given a few chances in the big league.

Daniel Carr was not known as an AHL star until he signed in Vegas. He was fighting for a 14th forward spot and had spent many years with Montreal.

Macek came over from Germany and had never played in the AHL before.

But the rest of the team:
Whitecloud, Coghlan, Hague, Brannstrom and Bischoff on the back end
Dansk in goal
Duke, Kolesar, Quinney on forward
were signed or drafted prospects playing key roles last year.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Pulkkinen didn't play in the AHL last season. He was an expansion draft selection, and he was sent down year 1 and I'm not sure he was even qualified for year 2 so he went to the KHL.

Macek, Carr and Pirri were signed for 1 year to be depth for the NHL club. VGK scout Kelly Kisio had him when he was the GM of the Hitmen. Guys like Tynan and Hyka were signed for 2 years during year 1, again, to compete for the NHL and Hyka was given a few chances in the big league.

Daniel Carr was not known as an AHL star until he signed in Vegas. He was fighting for a 14th forward spot and had spent many years with Montreal.

But the rest of the team:
Whitecloud, Coghlan, Hague, Brannstrom and Bischoff on the back end
Dansk in goal
Duke, Kolesar, Quinney on forward
were signed or drafted prospects playing key roles last year.

I think you missed my point or we're not talking about the same things. Those players were signed for the purpose of winning the Calder Cup. Doesn't matter when, they were signed for that purpose and be ready made to be brought up every once in a while for non-extended periods of time. None of them were kept as bodies for the press box for the big club, it was either actively filling in for an injury or they were on a flight back to O'Hare.

Carr was a point per game AHL player and fringe-player with the Canadiens. He was brought in to win a Calder Cup and not make the Vegas roster, considering he couldn't even break into a really bad Canadiens team.

Bischoff and Dansk were drafted in 2012. They haven't been a prospects in a long time. Reid was brought in as a warm body and that's what he remains today.

I'll give you Whitecloud, Brannstrom, Hague, and Kolessar. 4 or so actual prospects out of the 40 or so who dressed any respectable amount of time during the past three season.

Now let's get back on to the topic of Vegas wanting to buy a AHL team, not the status of the Vegas/Chicago relationship. There's zero doubt that Chicago goes into each season with a team prepared to win a Calder Cup over develop prospects for a parent team.

 

[GindyDraws]

I'm still trying to wrap my head about the Blackhawks putting their AHL team in Las Vegas as a rumor. How do you do that? Chicago is a massive enough city that supports multiple sports franchises, but the Las Vegas metropolitan area likely would not be supportive of the non-Golden Knights team, so they'd only stick around as a money sink.

And, while the AHL will most likely stay a 1-to-1 ratio of perfect affiliation, there is something that kind of throws a wrench to that argument; the NBA G-League. Next season, the NBA will introduce the Captains of Mexico City (Capitanes de Ciudad de Mexico) into the fold, but the Capitanes will remain independent as far as we know. If the NBA can have a team be independent while two of its own teams (Portland and Denver) still don't have affiliations, what's there to stop the AHL from having an independent team? The ECHL has independent teams, but they're either due to the teams wanting to be competitive like the Chicago Wolves (often Fort Wayne, whom Vegas is affiliated with) or because NHL or AHL teams do not want anything to do with them (as is currently the case with the Norfolk Admirals), but the ECHL is rarely used as developmental for players and is more or less their own thing. I know the AHL kneels to whatever the NHL says, which is why we got the Pacific Division and the scheduling imbalance which I still hate, but the Wolves make things very interesting.

 

[CupInSIX]

I think you missed my point or we're not talking about the same things. Those players were signed for the purpose of winning the Calder Cup. Doesn't matter when, they were signed for that purpose and be ready made to be brought up every once in a while for non-extended periods of time. None of them were kept as bodies for the press box for the big club, it was either actively filling in for an injury or they were on a flight back to O'Hare.

Carr was a point per game AHL player and fringe-player with the Canadiens. He was brought in to win a Calder Cup and not make the Vegas roster, considering he couldn't even break into a really bad Canadiens team.

Bischoff and Dansk were drafted in 2012. They haven't been a prospects in a long time. Reid was brought in as a warm body and that's what he remains today.

I'll give you Whitecloud, Brannstrom, Hague, and Kolessar. 4 or so actual prospects out of the 40 or so who dressed any respectable amount of time during the past three season.

You don't need to give me anything. They had a lot of good prospects like Coghlan last season and it's a fact.

A 24yo former NCAA defenseman playing in his 2nd AHL year is still very much a prospect.

Their D last year:
Hague Whitecloud
Reinhart Brannstrom
Bischoff Coghlan
Leslie (dressed as extra skater)
Lough

Which one of these is an AHL ringer, signed to go to the finals? There's nothing spectacular about then-25yo Lagace's numbers either up to 2017



They could have taken the whole show to Henderson for the 2018-19 season and had the exact same results, same prospect development, same veteran leadership - but they were under contract with the Wolves for at least 2 more years. Wendell Young might as well have been in a coma, mostly everything from hockey ops was taken care of on the Vegas end of things for him.

 

[Centrum Hockey]

I'm still trying to wrap my head about the Blackhawks putting their AHL team in Las Vegas as a rumor. How do you do that? Chicago is a massive enough city that supports multiple sports franchises, but the Las Vegas metropolitan area likely would not be supportive of the non-Golden Knights team, so they'd only stick around as a money sink.

And, while the AHL will most likely stay a 1-to-1 ratio of perfect affiliation, there is something that kind of throws a wrench to that argument; the NBA G-League. Next season, the NBA will introduce the Captains of Mexico City (Capitanes de Ciudad de Mexico) into the fold, but the Capitanes will remain independent as far as we know. If the NBA can have a team be independent while two of its own teams (Portland and Denver) still don't have affiliations, what's there to stop the AHL from having an independent team? The ECHL has independent teams, but they're either due to the teams wanting to be competitive like the Chicago Wolves (often Fort Wayne, whom Vegas is affiliated with) or because NHL or AHL teams do not want anything to do with them (as is currently the case with the Norfolk Admirals), but the ECHL is rarely used as developmental for players and is more or less their own thing. I know the AHL kneels to whatever the NHL says, which is why we got the Pacific Division and the scheduling imbalance which I still hate, but the Wolves make things very interesting.

Where there any AHL Teams with no NHL affiliation post the AHL/IHL merger. It would be easier to search for if there was a vote on outlawing independent teams. If someone knew the last known ahl season where there was a team with no NHL affiliate.

 

[wildcat48]

Nothing has been finalized, and a source close to the situation said the Golden Knights are currently negotiating with two different AHL teams. Andrews said if a team were to relocate for the upcoming 2020-21 season, it “needs to happen in the next few months.”

Henderson Silver Knights? Golden Knights plan to bring AHL... (firewall)

 

[Agalloch]

Nothing has been finalized, and a source close to the situation said the Golden Knights are currently negotiating with two different AHL teams. Andrews said if a team were to relocate for the upcoming 2020-21 season, it “needs to happen in the next few months.”

Henderson Silver Knights? Golden Knights plan to bring AHL... (firewall)

2 ? I guess it's not a nhl owned team so ... not a lot of choices there. Rockford ? I cannot guess about the other one. Springfield ?

 

[These Are The Days]

Jesus Christ.... 3 years ago this city didn't even have a single team and now they've got 2 professional teams and now possibly an AHL affiliate.

 

[JMCx4]

2 ? I guess it's not a nhl owned team so ... not a lot of choices there. Rockford ? I cannot guess about the other one. Springfield ?

Refer to @Barclay Donaldson's post in this thread of the Fugu's Business forum for clues.

 

[Agalloch]

Refer to @Barclay Donaldson's post in this thread of the Fugu's Business forum for clues.

So most likely Rockford then.

 

[JMCx4]

So most likely Rockford then.

Except for the niggling details in this thread.

 

[smitty10]

Good for them. Having your AHL team in the same city as the NHL squad does wonders for development. Your prospects get a ton of opportunity to work with NHL coaches, use the NHL team's facilities and develop into the organizational culture.

The Leafs get to use this to their advantage all the time. Calling guys up to practice with the big squad, get some NHL warm-ups in and then send them back down to the Marlies for their game the next night with no travel required. Plus, you can bonus your young guys that way too.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Good for them. Having your AHL team in the same city as the NHL squad does wonders for development. Your prospects get a ton of opportunity to work with NHL coaches, use the NHL team's facilities and develop into the organizational culture.

The Leafs get to use this to their advantage all the time. Calling guys up to practice with the big squad, get some NHL warm-ups in and then send them back down to the Marlies for their game the next night with no travel required. Plus, you can bonus your young guys that way too.

Being in the same city also detracts the attention that they receive from the market since most of the concentration is on the NHL squad. Toronto is a city of 5 million with an equally wealthy and hockey obsessed population. They're the exception, not the standard. Check out the Winnipeg and San José attendance. For San José, they just bankroll the team and don't care that they have turnstile count under 1,000. For Winnipeg, they've actively been looking to move the team out, most recently to Thunder Bay. That, and the AHL doesn't get to work with the NHL coaching staff unless they're called up. Sharing a facility is pretty minor, and organizational culture can be done from anywhere. LA and Manchester had it and breathed it and they were on opposite sides of the country. The ideal situation that is apparent with the new AHL is placing them in their own market 1-3 hours away. It's close enough to satisfy easy call-ups, the minor league gets to be in their own market, and it helps market the NHL club. And in the case of some clubs like Vancouver, keeping the young kids away from the prying eyes and predatory sports media is far more important than sharing facilities and easy call-ups.