NHL Vegas wants to buy AHL team and move it to LV

[Drake88]

Crazy scenario I just want to put out there. Believe me, I am positive this wont happen but does anyone think these changes could open discussion for an independent league? Or even crazier, push some of these bigger markets down a level? A couple doomsday scenarios to stir up some discussion...

It’s no secret that there are a lot of minor league cities that want full control of their team, with Chicago perhaps being the most notorious. Could a couple of these cities band together to create an independent league?? I don’t see the NHL trend of buying and moving AHL affiliates slowing down anytime soon. In fact, in the next couple years I wouldn’t be shocked to see Tampa Bay and Florida move their AHL clubs to one of Estero/Jacksonville/Orlando. Who knows, maybe St. Louis even moves a little closer. Due to this trend, cities like Houston have already lost their team and teams like San Antonio and Chicago are becoming seemingly less desirable affiliates. Could these cities band together? Could also test out some other big cities that are currently without teams like New Orleans.

Either that or some of these big markets move down to the ECHL simply because they aren’t close enough to another NHL team. Cities like Houston and Chicago are/were obviously great AHL cities in terms of market size and attendance. However, if nobody wants to affiliate with you, your future options seem limited. Obviously we know how fans usually feel about moving to a lower league, so I do not see this ever happening but it’s definitely something to consider. Obviously, NHL teams with money to burn can afford to own or operate affiliates, but it boggles my mind that this new trend is seemingly going to leave some solid markets out in the dark simply because of location. I think the ECHL specifically could stand to benefit from the upheaval at the AHL level. Especially considering it is starting to involve some powerhouse teams.

 

[JMCx4]

... It’s no secret that there are a lot of minor league cities that want full control of their team, with Chicago perhaps being the most notorious. Could a couple of these cities band together to create an independent league?? I don’t see the NHL trend of buying and moving AHL affiliates slowing down anytime soon. In fact, in the next couple years I wouldn’t be shocked to see Tampa Bay and Florida move their AHL clubs to one of Estero/Jacksonville/Orlando. Who knows, maybe St. Louis even moves a little closer. Due to this trend, cities like Houston have already lost their team and teams like San Antonio and Chicago are becoming seemingly less desirable affiliates. Could these cities band together? Could also test out some other big cities that are currently without teams like New Orleans. ...

You mean ... IHL 4.0?

 

[Coach Nate]

I dont see any teams going this route and I guarantee San Antonio wouldn't. They pay zero dollars in payroll, they aren't going to start now just to be a terrible team with no chance of winning.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

it's the nature of the business side of sports, the Wolves did that 20 years ago

I am still ,waiting for your references from your previous misinformation posts...

You mean ... IHL 4.0?

No way an independent league can exist in this country where they play hockey at a level equivalent to the AHL or the European Elite leagues. The NHL has too many players wrapped up and too much leverage over players not locked up.

 

[crimsonace]

The IHL tried the "independent league" model in the 1990s. It lasted about three or four years and bled money. In this day and age, it would probably not work any better. A minor pro team - which relies almost completely on gate revenue and sponsorships - wouldn't be able to keep the doors open with a payroll of $75-100K/player (comparable to salaries of AHL-contracted players) for 20-25 players without pricing tickets beyond the reach of the average fan.

In a lot of ways, that concept lasted about as long as the WHA did, and in both cases, they had a lot of franchises come and go and even some of the league's flagships (Houston in the WHA, Detroit in the IHL) didn't make it.

The ECHL-contracted portion of the rosters in those leagues probably are the closest thing we'll ever have to a viable independent league.

 

[GindyDraws]

You mean ... IHL 4.0?

And pay that kind of money to those players? As if. The IHL in the 1990s quickly abandoned its traditional markets like Muskegon and Flint for places like San Antonio, San Francisco, and Quebec that didn't work out, and while there, in theory, would be teams willing to rather be competitive than be thralls to the NHL's developmental system, the unfortunate situation is that money is just too much to overcome. Sure, the league may seem healthy... at first, but those teams would have to take on losses, and especially in today's age where funders and backers want profits in a zero-sum endeavor, you would need somebody with a crazy amount of cash and a Herculean amount of patience to let the league develop. You'd also have to be willing to accept the reality that the quality would not be on par with the NHL due to both salary and accessibility.

Okay, but let's say, and for the sake of humoring this idea, Chicago Wolves go rogue and create a new IHL (with blackjack and hookers), do they take teams with them from the AHL and ECHL levels (and before you snicker, there are teams on the ECHL level that, year after year, value competition as, for example, one half of the Central Division in the ECHL is often fierce and filled with intense fights for first place... and the other half are regular patrons of Super Weenie Hut Juniors, to which my Indy Fuel are one of said trio), or do they have to create teams from scratch, effectively becoming the Harlem Globetrotters to a bunch of Washington Generals?

 

[axecrew]

Exactly why I treat the AHL and NHL separately in terms of who my hockey teams are.

Hutch...is that you....so what does this quoted post have to do with my post you quoted?

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

Wolves just can't keep affiliations... this is getting rediculous.

Just move the the franchise up to the NHL already and be done with it.

The Wolves can, it's just the fact teams want their own affiliates and the Chicago Wolves are independently owned.
Atlanta relocated to Winnipeg, if it weren't for that they'd still be affiliated with the Atlanta Thrashers to this very day.
Vancouver had no choice because of Winnipeg getting their NHL team back.
St. Louis sold their team to Vancouver where they put them in Utica.
St. Louis left but continued to share with Chicago, then took over San Antonio after the 31st AHL team went to Colorado.
Vegas wants their own AHL team so they're out. I imagine they upset the Chicago Wolves owners by wanting to buy the team.

I mean the only viable option it seems is Vegas buying Calgary's affiliate, but the big thing here is Calgary doesn't have one-way flights to Chicago all the time. But it would be a good fit. I like the idea of the New Jersey Devils taking over the Wolves, considering they're in the Eastern Conference. But now that it's brought up, they should've been affiliated with the Wolves a long... time ago. Talking as early as 2011.

 

[ek93]

I like the idea of the New Jersey Devils taking over the Wolves, considering they're in the Eastern Conference. But now that it's brought up, they should've been affiliated with the Wolves a long... time ago. Talking as early as 2011.

The Devils actually want to have a hand in their AHL affiliate though. I don’t think they’d work well with the Wolves style of operating.

Plus they’re a 3 hour drive from their current affiliate. I’m not sure what they’d gain by doing this.

 

[LadyStanley]

San Jose, Los Angeles, Anaheim (and Calgary, Edmonton) threatened to leave the AHL if the league would not allow them to relocate their franchises to California/west coast. They also got the 68 game season (down from the 80-ish east coast teams play); this reduces the three-in-three game weekends as well as more practice time for development.

 

[G50]

Would the NHL ever consider moving up an AHL franchise, or is there something that prevents that from ever being considered?

Just the prospect of a Suburbs vs City rivalry in the NHL could bring in a huge amount of extra revenue.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Would the NHL ever consider moving up an AHL franchise, or is there something that prevents that from ever being considered?

Just the prospect of a Suburbs vs City rivalry in the NHL could bring in a huge amount of extra revenue.

I'm going assume you're talking about the Wolves. Here is just a small list of reasons why the Wolves will never move up to the NHL.

1. The Wolves don't want to move up to the NHL. They've existed as an independent minded minor league team, and that is entirely different than operating as a NHL team. The last NHL expansion fee was for $650 million, Levin is never going to take that.
   
2. The NHL doesn't want to expand past 32. They've stated it constantly since they accepted Seattle and closed off the expansion process. Read any reliable article about the Bettman-Fertitta meeting. Expansion is over.
3. Blackhawks will shut down any attempt to encroach on their territory.
4. Just because the AHL Wolves are well supported doesn't mean they would be a good NHL market. There's a huge difference between good AHL support and good NHL support.
5. At 16,700 seats for hockey, Allstate would be one of the smallest arenas in the league. They would need to sellout every single game with much more expensive tickets while taking a ton of corporate money in the middle of hardcore Blackhawks territory in order to be anywhere near viable.
   
6. "Think of the rivalry" is the worst argument ever argued for expansion. That's a few games per year.
   If any team is relying on rivalry games for revenue, they're in trouble. There are 75 other games in the schedule they need to do as well. The NHL looks at 3 things for expansion: ownership quality, arena quality, market quality. Each one needs to blow them away. Québec City had 2/3 and they got left in the cold. They'll say no to all three in the case of Chicago.

So to summarize, absolutely zero chance. If it was possible to be below zero percent, it would be.

If you're not talking about the Wolves, remove the Wolves references and the same logic still applies. The NHL is done expanding and the argument ends there. No AHL team is going to get moved up to the NHL.

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

The Devils actually want to have a hand in their AHL affiliate though. I don’t think they’d work well with the Wolves style of operating.

Plus they’re a 3 hour drive from their current affiliate. I’m not sure what they’d gain by doing this.

Like Calgary, they aren't very good with AHL Affiliates. I like teams that aren't very good with affiliates working with an independently owned AHL Affiliate. The Calgary Flames aren't necessarily the best at developing prospects, they just got lucky with the odd prospect, but I find the Chicago Wolves help develop teams' prospects better, like how the Manitoba Moose did with the Canucks during the Jets' absence.

In all, I found the New Jersey Devils, Calgary Flames, and the Ottawa Senators are very bad with AHL teams. I personally think Ottawa's affiliate shouldn't be in Belleville, St. John's would've made more sense and I believe they would've made more money with them; would say Thunder Bay but they don't have an arena, but that should be a future AHL city one day.

Florida Panthers, Arizona Coyotes have improved with AHL affiliates over the years as previous they were very bad with them. But I thought both worked out well with the San Antonio Rampage. Colorado had struggled over the years since relocating from Quebec, but think they're in a good spot now with the Eagles.

I also find independently owned AHL teams are good for expansion teams. Thought that the Wolves and Golden Knights would've had an amazing relationship considering they have tons of flights going back and forth from Vegas and Chicago, plus the Wolves are a top-notch AHL organization, them and the Hershey Bears.

I think though it's better that an Eastern Conference Team were with the Chicago Wolves. But as it looks today, they're the only choice for the Calgary Flames if they sell to the Golden Knights.

 

[aparch]

I will agree with those that talked about the IHL 4.0 that it's a terrible idea that wouldn't work well......

....But, there is language specifically baked into the latest CBA that spoke of the AHL or an equivalent league for the development of players, and there were rumors that said passage in the CBA was used for the forced acceptance of the Pacific division.

*edit* Lady Stanley pointed this out a few posts above.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

In all, I found the New Jersey Devils, Calgary Flames, and the Ottawa Senators are very bad with AHL teams. I personally think Ottawa's affiliate shouldn't be in Belleville, St. John's would've made more sense and I believe they would've made more money with them; would say Thunder Bay but they don't have an arena, but that should be a future AHL city one day.

Some major issues with this:

Ottawa would not have made more sense in St. John's. St. John's teams have been responsible for subsidizing the away team's travel (source: Willing to go the distance: Travel costs have always been a reality for St. John's pro hockey teams | The Telegram) since the IceCaps. And since St. John's is so far out of the way, their travel would be insane. The Senators put the team in Belleville since travel is a short to medium-length bus trip for every single in conference trip minus Charlotte. The AHL is about minimizing travel and maximizing the amount of time prospects spend on the ice, in the gym, and in their own beds. St. John's is antithetical to that in every single way. St. John's makes zero sense for Ottawa or any NHL team, only a few flights per day for call-ups and no direct flights to Ottawa or any city not named Toronto.

Thunder Bay doesn't have an arena and has no public funding or interest to get one. They're also a 9 hour bus trip to their closest AHL opponent. Anyone not named Winnipeg (who were looking to go there just because they didn't want the Moose in Winnipeg) will have absolutely zero interest in them.

As for being bad with AHL teams, they bought the teams. They can operate them however they want. They own them.

 

[Centrum Hockey]

Some major issues with this:

Ottawa would not have made more sense in St. John's. St. John's teams have been responsible for subsidizing the away team's travel (source: Willing to go the distance: Travel costs have always been a reality for St. John's pro hockey teams | The Telegram) since the IceCaps. And since St. John's is so far out of the way, their travel would be insane. The Senators put the team in Belleville since travel is a short to medium-length bus trip for every single in conference trip minus Charlotte. The AHL is about minimizing travel and maximizing the amount of time prospects spend on the ice, in the gym, and in their own beds. St. John's is antithetical to that in every single way. St. John's makes zero sense for Ottawa or any NHL team, only a few flights per day for call-ups and no direct flights to Ottawa or any city not named Toronto.

Thunder Bay doesn't have an arena and has no public funding or interest to get one. They're also a 9 hour bus trip to their closest AHL opponent. Anyone not named Winnipeg (who were looking to go there just because they didn't want the Moose in Winnipeg) will have absolutely zero interest in them.

As for being bad with AHL teams, they bought the teams. They can operate them however they want. They own them.

The Jets and Junior hockey to a far lesser extent have cannibalized the interest of the ahl in Winnipeg. The Jets would be a good fit for the wolves but true north will most likely never sell their ahl team.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

The Jets and Junior hockey to a far lesser extent have cannibalized the interest of the ahl in Winnipeg. The Jets would be a good fit for the wolves but true north will most likely never sell their ahl team.

The addition of the WHL Ice has over-saturated the Winnipeg hockey and entertainment market. Even in the hockey mad city of Winnipeg, there just isn't enough to go around.

I don't think the Wolves would be a good fit for the Jets. The Jets really rely on the Moose a ton and enjoy doing a lot of the types of micromanaging prospect development that the Wolves organization does not allow.

If Thunder Bay pushed through the funding for the arena, I think it would have fit in well. The only reason that market doesn't have anything is because of its extreme geographic isolation.

 

[Centrum Hockey]

Possible AHL Teams for Vegas to Buy and Relocate | The Sin Bin

Springfield would probably be a non starter because of the AHL's desire to keep a team there and Florida does not want their prospects in the central time zone.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Possible AHL Teams for Vegas to Buy and Relocate | The Sin Bin

Springfield would probably be a non starter because of the AHL's desire to keep a team there and Florida not does not want their prospects in the central time zone.

Springfield ownership is local, diverse, and hugely motivated. And considering how much they turned the team around simply by marketing the team better, I have no doubts they will not be sold. They have a great relationship with Florida, can’t be strong armed into selling, and like you said have the AHL HQ equally dedicated to the team that is based a 10 minute walk down the street.

 

[BigMac1212]

If this were to take place, would Vancouver move their affiliate from Utica to Palm Springs?

 

[JMCx4]

If this were to take place, would Vancouver move their affiliate from Utica to Palm Springs?

Do yourself a favor, and Google: "NHL Seattle Palm Springs" ...

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

If this were to take place, would Vancouver move their affiliate from Utica to Palm Springs?

That would make things a little crowded considering Seattle is already putting their AHL team in Palm Springs.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

So, Vegas needs to buy a franchise. It sounds though as if they might be talking to an NHL team that is tired of running their AHL team considering it was discussed at the NHL level, not at the AHL level, as those owned by the NHL team are the only ones that the NHL team could discuss selling. So who might be tired of running their own?

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

So, Vegas needs to buy a franchise. It sounds though as if they might be talking to an NHL team that is tired of running their AHL team considering it was discussed at the NHL level, not at the AHL level, as those owned by the NHL team are the only ones that the NHL team could discuss selling. So who might be tired of running their own?

Calgary with Stockton is the only one, and even then it’s unlikely. They’ve moved around markets incredibly often, it’s more of a drain than an asset at times, their time is running short on Stockton, the usual things.

But even then, they love owning their AHL team. A large portion of their roster spent time developing in Stockton or elsewhere where the Flames could micromanage their development. It’s not often you get the Boston/Providence situation where you get to control who plays and how much and the rest of it is up to the local guys.

 

[royals119]

So, Vegas needs to buy a franchise. It sounds though as if they might be talking to an NHL team that is tired of running their AHL team considering it was discussed at the NHL level, not at the AHL level, as those owned by the NHL team are the only ones that the NHL team could discuss selling. So who might be tired of running their own?

I'm not sure where you saw that. I believe the Vegas representative stated they had spoken to at least two independently owned AHL teams, which is why a lot of speculation is looking at Rockford, Binghamton, Springfield, and others.