NHL investigating Coyotes over physical testing of CHL players

[Canis Latrans]

I don't see any reason to be concerned about this until something of substance is actually reported about it. The actual penalty for the alleged crime is already denoted, and it's strictly monetary, so what's the reasoning behind all this hullabaloo on losing draft picks? My guess is it's some angry competing executive trying to anchor the conversation around some high penalty point, and citing that the combine was shutdown has somehow made the "crime" even worse, as if committing petty larceny on some one who dies in a car accident later in the day now must mean your charge must be upgraded to grand larceny.

 

[TheLegend]

It was a slow news day for Strickland.

 

[MIGs Dog]

The Houston Astros cheated during dozens of games, eventually winning the WS while cheating. They were docked their 1 and 2 picks for the next 2 drafts, fined $5 mil, and their GM and Manager were suspended (later fired by the owner).

Different sport, but in comparison what the Coyotes are accused of doing is minuscule.

 

[Jamieh]

The Houston Astros cheated during dozens of games, eventually winning the WS while cheating. They were docked their 1 and 2 picks for the next 2 drafts, fined $5 mil, and their GM and Manager were suspended (later fired by the owner).

Different sport, but in comparison what the Coyotes are accused of doing is minuscule.

The NHL has shown over time that they are very serious about their rules and cheating. MLB can make no such claim.

 

[rt]

I like how Craig Morgan has a podcast where he talks about being bored. Then on this story he just asks the team itself if anything new is happening and leaves it at that.

Why doesn’t he ask around? Can’t find some kids that attended and ask them off the record? How about some recently drafted Coyotes? What was Hayton’s draft year experience like? Did other teams do stuff like this? Ask current managers of other teams what they do. Or better yet guys who are recently out of the game. Ask Paul Fenton what his experience is with these pre-combine events. Ask player agents to comment on what these usually entail and where the line is.

Or how about asking the league what exactly he the rules are? We don’t even know that!

Have any other teams had complaints in the past that amounted to nothing? Can we get a description of what those allowable events looked like so we can get a baseline for what’s allowed?

 

[rt]

Damn. Even just nuts and bolts stuff like “were there lots of kids all at once, or one kid at a time?” would be helpful in visualizing if this was a whole event or just a couple of one-offs.

 

[hbk]

I like how Craig Morgan has a podcast where he talks about being bored. Then on this story he just asks the team itself if anything new is happening and leaves it at that.

Why doesn’t he ask around? Can’t find some kids that attended and ask them off the record? How about some recently drafted Coyotes? What was Hayton’s draft year experience like? Did other teams do stuff like this? Ask current managers of other teams what they do. Or better yet guys who are recently out of the game. Ask Paul Fenton what his experience is with these pre-combine events. Ask player agents to comment on what these usually entail and where the line is.

Or how about asking the league what exactly he the rules are? We don’t even know that!

Have any other teams had complaints in the past that amounted to nothing? Can we get a description of what those allowable events looked like so we can get a baseline for what’s allowed?

I can’t believe that the hundreds of so called hockey journalists in Toronto alone haven’t called any of the draft eligible prospects on central scouting a list or like you say Coyote prospects and identified one single name that is willing to say that the Coyotes put them through physical testing. In 3-4 months not a single name. Not a single concrete allegation.

just a monthly update from Dreger (and now Strickland) on how angry and outraged unnamed GM’s are. I honestly defy to not watch any old SCTV news update with Earl Camembert and not laugh at the level of “reporting” Dreger is providing. It’s not reporting. He’s a fake journalist and the fact that he gets put up on the same level of a McKenzie or a LeBrun makes TSN a mockery.

oh and where is the hockey news on this blockbuster story? The publication that only covers hockey that has missed this “story” completely.

 

[rt]

I think there's a story without an allegation. I want to know how typical it is for teams to have prospects brought in well ahead of the combine. What happens during these meetings? What are the rules? Have there been complaints previously? What were the findings?

 

[hbk]

I think there's a story without an allegation. I want to know how typical it is for teams to have prospects brought in well ahead of the combine. What happens during these meetings? What are the rules? Have there been complaints previously? What were the findings?

I’ve been to games at the WHL where scouts have come down from the stands at intermission to have a conversation with the parents of players.

I sat in front on Kyle Turris’s mom at a BCJHL game prior to his draft where she talked openly to the person beside her about Bobby Clarke and the Flyers taking their son out for dinner. In that same conversation they mentioned that the game 2 days earlier was attended by Gretzky and some Coyote scouts.

meetings happen all the time.

 

[rt]

I think there's a story without an allegation. I want to know how typical it is for teams to have prospects brought in well ahead of the combine. What happens during these meetings? What are the rules? Have there been complaints previously? What were the findings?

1. Was this a bunch of prospects and once, or one at a time?
2. Do other teams hold these types of events or meetings with prospects?
3. If so, what to they most typically entail?
4. How common is this practice?
5. What are the specific rules about these meetings or events?
6. How do teams protect themselves against violations?
7. Are prospects and agents aware of these lines that shouldn't be crossed?
8. Have there ever been any other complaints investigated by the NHL? How often? What were the outcomes?


Possible sources:
Agents: Pat Brisson, JP Barry, Kurt Overhardt, Allan Walsh, Darren Ferris, and Claude Lemieux

Current GMs: Brad Teliving, Don Waddell, Stan Bowmen, Doug Wilson, Jason Botterill, David Poile

Former GMs: Ray Shero, Paul Fenton, Dean Lombardi, Peter Chiarelli, Ron Hextall, Mike Gillis

Recent CHL Picks: Nick Merkley, Zach Senyshyn, Sam Steel, Brett Howden, Morgan Frost, PO Joseph

^ names are just examples, illustrating that there are a ton of people you could ask, and some might have some personal or professional reasons for either answering or not answering, and may do so either on or off the record.

 

[rt]

I’ve been to games at the WHL where scouts have come down from the stands at intermission to have a conversation with the parents of players.

I sat in front on Kyle Turris’s mom at a BCJHL game prior to his draft where she talked openly to the person beside her about Bobby Clarke and the Flyers taking their son out for dinner. In that same conversation they mentioned that the game 2 days earlier was attended by Gretzky and some Coyote scouts.

meetings happen all the time.

We hear stories like this all of the time. That's why it's important to differentiate, and understand the context, background, and rules.

We all know that Doug Wilson tells Paul Bissonnette on Spitten' Chiclets, that he absolutely loves Conor Garland, and he can't wait for his contract to expire because he's DEFINITELY going to offersheet him, that's tampering. That line is clear to most of us fans and media people and hockey people. So why don't we understand what the pre-combine rules are for prospects? Someone should cover this. It seems like an interesting story to write.

 

[hbk]

We hear stories like this all of the time. That's why it's important to differentiate, and understand the context, background, and rules.

We all know that Doug Wilson tells Paul Bissonnette on Spitten' Chiclets, that he absolutely loves Conor Garland, and he can't wait for his contract to expire because he's DEFINITELY going to offersheet him, that's tampering. That line is clear to most of us fans and media people and hockey people. So why don't we understand what the pre-combine rules are for prospects? Someone should cover this. It seems like an interesting story to write.

Yeah. This is a story to be investigated but the “sports journalists” are too busy apparently.

 

[_Del_]

Yeah. This is a story to be investigated but the “sports journalists” are too busy apparently.

There are too many playoff games to be covering to be concerned with this.

 

[Mosby]

Can't see how they can take away picks when that's not how the rule is written. It says fines only, no?

 

[XX]

Can't see how they can take away picks when that's not how the rule is written. It says fines only, no?

Generally the commissioner reserves the power to hand down whatever punishment in extreme cases that don't fit neatly into the rules. But we've seen nothing to suggest this was extreme. I just see two very bored league sources being used as mouthpieces for a couple of GMs that want to put the screws to Chayka.

I will be shocked if this results in anything more than a fine, a warning, and a clarification of language.

Dreger running this story, for instance, is an easy way to get something interesting out there that pleases what is undoubtedly a more important group of people for his networking. Most of his value as a reporter is derived from his contacts (the total opposite of Morgan). Ain't nobody going to be sad the Coyotes are the ones getting kicked.

 

[TheLegend]

I like how Craig Morgan has a podcast where he talks about being bored. Then on this story he just asks the team itself if anything new is happening and leaves it at that.

Why doesn’t he ask around? Can’t find some kids that attended and ask them off the record? How about some recently drafted Coyotes? What was Hayton’s draft year experience like? Did other teams do stuff like this? Ask current managers of other teams what they do. Or better yet guys who are recently out of the game. Ask Paul Fenton what his experience is with these pre-combine events. Ask player agents to comment on what these usually entail and where the line is.

Or how about asking the league what exactly he the rules are? We don’t even know that!

Have any other teams had complaints in the past that amounted to nothing? Can we get a description of what those allowable events looked like so we can get a baseline for what’s allowed?

The league has told the media the players are off limits so he can't just call any of them up.

Front office staff are pretty much scattered everywhere.

Morgan posted a complete synopsis of what the guidelines were at the beginning of all this here....

What we know about the NHL’s reported, ongoing...

[for those who don't have a subscription this is the guideline]

Pre-Combine Period (in effect until the morning after the Combine)
— No physical testing for prospects on the Combine invite list.
— Psychological testing and interviews are permitted for all prospects.

Post-Combine Period
— No physical testing for prospects on the Combine invite list.
— Physical testing is permitted for prospects not on the Combine invite list.
— Medical examinations are permitted for all prospects.
— Psychological testing and interviews are permitted for all prospects.

In addition, as reviewed by the 2016 General Managers’ Meeting in Toronto, and in order to eliminate any confusion regarding this policy, the Combine Testing Policy prohibits NHL club personnel from directly or indirectly advising invited players regarding Scouting Combine participation.

Any club that violates these policies will be fined no less than $250,000 for each violation.

------

 

[rt]

The league has told the media the players are off limits so he can't just call any of them up.

Front office staff are pretty much scattered everywhere.

Morgan posted a complete synopsis of what the guidelines were at the beginning of all this here....

What we know about the NHL’s reported, ongoing...

[for those who don't have a subscription this is the guideline]

Pre-Combine Period (in effect until the morning after the Combine)
— No physical testing for prospects on the Combine invite list.
— Psychological testing and interviews are permitted for all prospects.

Post-Combine Period
— No physical testing for prospects on the Combine invite list.
— Physical testing is permitted for prospects not on the Combine invite list.
— Medical examinations are permitted for all prospects.
— Psychological testing and interviews are permitted for all prospects.

In addition, as reviewed by the 2016 General Managers’ Meeting in Toronto, and in order to eliminate any confusion regarding this policy, the Combine Testing Policy prohibits NHL club personnel from directly or indirectly advising invited players regarding Scouting Combine participation.

Any club that violates these policies will be fined no less than $250,000 for each violation.

------

And "physical testing" is defined as....? That could be anything. I thought the league had lawyers. Were they on vacation?

 

[rt]

Some hypotheticals for ya!

"We flew in Marco Rossi and wow, what an impressive kid. He looked like he was built like a brick shit house under that golf polo. And he's got a crushing handshake. Had Cole Perfetti in the day before. Limp, dead-fish handshake, and he looked like my great uncle Ned in his polo, yikes! Talk about turkeytits. It's really no surprise. It was icewater, steak, and sweet potatoes for Rossi at dinner. No desert. Perfetti had a coke, the lobster newburg, - with FRIES! who the hell orders fries with lobster newburg - and topped it off with creme brule! I couldn't believe it. I don't think I'd touch a slob like that in the top five. Rossi, though. Really a physical presence in the room. He's obviously committed to physical fitness. That's clear. "

Is that a grip strength test? Or a body fat analysis? Diet analysis? Are these physical tests?

Do tests require that results be measured or documented? In that case, what's the minimum, here? How the f*** do you define this?

Maybe it's not so complicated. Maybe it's just like, don't see how many pushups and chinups they can do and shit like that. Easy. Nice and black and white. Then how the f*** do you explain Chayka just going ahead and doing it anyway? It's not like he could be unaware of these rules? They thought they could do this with a whole whack of kids, with families, coaches, and agents? Plus all the internal staff around? Like they wouldn't get caught? I don't buy that.

If the rule is as poorly written as "no physical testing" without any definition of that verbiage, then I wouldn't expect much of a punishment. That's what happens when you leave yourself WIDE OPEN. Now if the Coyotes just ignored it, and basically hosted a mini-combine, they all deserve to be fired immediately.

 

[hbk]

I remember being at a work dinner with the Jets in Selanne’s rookie season and he was built like a brick shithouse. Much bigger in the chest then Keith Tkachuk who was much more lean (at the time).

Kris King had hands the size of my head. My theory is that if he swung and was within a two foot radius he was going to make contact.

 

[TheLegend]

And "physical testing" is defined as....? That could be anything. I thought the league had lawyers. Were they on vacation?

The last time any real news was written on the subject it was with the lawyers from both sides.

Can you say "billable hours"????

 

[tucknroll]

I’ve been to games at the WHL where scouts have come down from the stands at intermission to have a conversation with the parents of players.

I sat in front on Kyle Turris’s mom at a BCJHL game prior to his draft where she talked openly to the person beside her about Bobby Clarke and the Flyers taking their son out for dinner. In that same conversation they mentioned that the game 2 days earlier was attended by Gretzky and some Coyote scouts.

meetings happen all the time.

Yeh, it's amusing how star players that go in the top 2 (possibly 3) rounds have scouts constantly coming up to meet their parents. A bunch of the better players dads stand or sit in strange places to watch the game because they don't want to talk to anyone. Then the parents of the players that will go later in the draft or not drafted at all are constantly are going up to the scouts to talk to them about their kid. Which can often enough be consider as a negative on the kid because teams don't like overly involved parents. The amount of players that have fallen in their draft (more so junior leagues than NHL) because of their parents is actually surprising. One of the reasons London is able to get a bunch of their players that end up as steals for them or cheap though trade (Ryan Merkley this past season) is because they have so much talent on the team already that they can tell overly involved or psychotic parents to back off and kids with bad attitudes to smarten up or their careers will go no where fast. Where other teams often can't afford to lose quality players for nothing.

 

[TheLegend]

Starts at 6:10 mark. Dreger trying real hard to lay on the drama. Admits the Coyotes have been extremely cooperative with the league but the situation is "scandalous".

 

[BUX7PHX]

So, I don't mind hearing the term "scandalous," if only because I think he is describing the number of teams that had to be informed of this, and not necessarily the Coyotes actions.

To be honest, I would bet dollars to donuts that the root of the issue is this:

Chayka, and/or scouts etc. would take the time to have an interview with the player. The probably start off by discussing who they are, mention that they have interest, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Then, eventually, the team starts talking about game day routines. They day something along the lines of, "Do you usually stretch before getting equipment on, run a little on the treadmill, and then start getting gear?"

Very likely that at least one of the players they are taking to is a captain. So, maybe they ask, "How do you get everyone together for stretch? Can you talk to us about what you do?"

The prospect is then fully immersed in conversation, and maybe they literally start showing stretches that they lead the team through or do themselves. The key is that at no point in time did the Coyotes ever say, "show us your stretching routine." They simply asked about normal things, segued into game day and then the prospect willingly volunteered to stretch in front of them without ever being asked.

Think about Chayka and team in a room together and is this not exactly how you could see them meeting with players?

 

[hbk]

So, I don't mind hearing the term "scandalous," if only because I think he is describing the number of teams that had to be informed of this, and not necessarily the Coyotes actions.

To be honest, I would bet dollars to donuts that the root of the issue is this:

Chayka, and/or scouts etc. would take the time to have an interview with the player. The probably start off by discussing who they are, mention that they have interest, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Then, eventually, the team starts talking about game day routines. They day something along the lines of, "Do you usually stretch before getting equipment on, run a little on the treadmill, and then start getting gear?"

Very likely that at least one of the players they are taking to is a captain. So, maybe they ask, "How do you get everyone together for stretch? Can you talk to us about what you do?"

The prospect is then fully immersed in conversation, and maybe they literally start showing stretches that they lead the team through or do themselves. The key is that at no point in time did the Coyotes ever say, "show us your stretching routine." They simply asked about normal things, segued into game day and then the prospect willingly volunteered to stretch in front of them without ever being asked.

Think about Chayka and team in a room together and is this not exactly how you could see them meeting with players?

2 months in quarantine and Dreger hasn’t actually had the time apparently to confirm any allegation.

 

[rt]

So, I don't mind hearing the term "scandalous," if only because I think he is describing the number of teams that had to be informed of this, and not necessarily the Coyotes actions.

To be honest, I would bet dollars to donuts that the root of the issue is this:

Chayka, and/or scouts etc. would take the time to have an interview with the player. The probably start off by discussing who they are, mention that they have interest, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Then, eventually, the team starts talking about game day routines. They day something along the lines of, "Do you usually stretch before getting equipment on, run a little on the treadmill, and then start getting gear?"

Very likely that at least one of the players they are taking to is a captain. So, maybe they ask, "How do you get everyone together for stretch? Can you talk to us about what you do?"

The prospect is then fully immersed in conversation, and maybe they literally start showing stretches that they lead the team through or do themselves. The key is that at no point in time did the Coyotes ever say, "show us your stretching routine." They simply asked about normal things, segued into game day and then the prospect willingly volunteered to stretch in front of them without ever being asked.

Think about Chayka and team in a room together and is this not exactly how you could see them meeting with players?

You just described a casting couch. LOL.