NHL in 2025 (mod: more Canadian teams, fewer US sunbelt teams)

[Melrose Munch]

Do you know the background behind this?

This past off-season, following a 5th season at the bottom of the league (and amid the on-field success of other recent expansion teams, some in their first year), MLSE decided it would be a good idea to... raise prices. Prices were already 4x as high as they were when the team played it's first game in 2006.

It didn't exactly work as planned. Crowds dressed in green for the last game of the season, symbolizing MLSE's greed, then a good chunk of season ticket holders proceeded to cancel their tickets. MLSE backtracked, but many season ticket holders never renewed.

Essentially, while the piss poor performance of the team (easily the worst team over the past 5 years in the MLS) certainly played a role, MLSE's own actions cost them here. They thought they could screw TFC fans out of their hard earned money the way they do with Leafs fans. It backfired on them, big time.



Yes, they do, to an extent. Certain season ticket holders, primarily those from pre-1999 (i.e. Maple Leaf Gardens), do not need to buy Raptors tickets. However, newer ones, particularly corporate interests do. This is a common practice with NBA and NHL teams with shared ownership.

The Raptors attendance probably would be hurting, as would be expected following a 60 loss season, but at the same time it wouldn't be as bad as you probably expect. The Raptors have a very solid fan base and have some of the highest local TV ratings in the league. They are one of the few clubs in the NBA that are actually profitable.



I'm curious what leads you to come to this assumption. The Jays sell out all the big games (Canada Day, Halladay's return, home opener), draw 30,000+ against big name teams, and have very respectable TV ratings. They have a lot of support, particularly among those who remember 1993.



It can only be "shameful" if people are expected to care for it.



In conclusion, no, I disagree entirely.

The support for 4 of the 5 Toronto teams are in the upper half of their respective leagues, despite their record of futility (unmatched in North America outside of Cleveland).

Furthermore, not only has Toronto never lost a major professional sports franchise, but aside from the Blue Jays (very) brief financial struggle in the early 21st century, they have never had a team even come close to relocating. If you want to talk about bad sports towns, first take a look at Vancouver (how's those Grizzles?), Calgary (garbage bags over the seats? really?), Edmonton (how many minutes till Houston?), Ottawa (bankrupt, in two different sports at that!), and Montreal (How 'bout them 'Spos?).



I'm sure the CFL relishes the thought of leaving a city of 2.7 million for one the size of Milton.

I agree with everything except your last point. You say Toronto not a football city, but we drew 51k for the Bills and will so again. The Argos draw flies. I'm sure the CFL relishes seeing empty bleachers on TSN. Real positive image there

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

Do you know the background behind this?

Truth is, I know nothing about the TFC.

Yes, they do, to an extent. They are one of the few clubs in the NBA that are actually profitable.

I believe, if the Raptors and the Leafs were to go their seperate ways, the attendance (as well as what is charged for Raptor tickets) would drop like a stone and the team would lose money.

I'm curious what leads you to come to this assumption. The Jays sell out all the big games (Canada Day, Halladay's return, home opener), draw 30,000+ against big name teams, and have very respectable TV ratings. They have a lot of support, particularly among those who remember 1993.

I grew up when the Jays made their run in the late 80 / early 90's and I can honestly say there is no where near the interest in the team as there was back then.

I am not sure how old you are but, back then, the whole country was caught up in Jay's fever. But, back then, it was a novelty. Baseball was new and fresh and interesting. Now, no one cares anywhere near as much. Again, just my opinion.

It can only be "shameful" if people are expected to care for it.

The Argos deserve better.

************************

Anyway, I am not the only one who says Toronto is a terrible sports town. An article was written recently (I forget the writer) on the subject.

Yes, the city is big. The city is rich. But, compared to other cities their size, the support is poor at best.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

I agree with everything except your last point. You say Toronto not a football city, but we drew 51k for the Bills and will so again. The Argos draw flies. I'm sure the CFL relishes seeing empty bleachers on TSN. Real positive image there

Again, I bet at least half of the 40K in the stands (there are always large patches of empty seats) are give aways.

And... If there was no CFL in Toronto and the CFL decided to hold one game a year, my guess, it would sell out.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Again, I bet at least half of the 40K in the stands (there are always large patches of empty seats) are give aways.

And... If there was no CFL in Toronto and the CFL decided to hold one game a year, my guess, they would sell out.

Thing is, the Argos do the same. People would rather stay home hence the large TV ratings.

 

[TopT]

the way US economy is going they will be happy to have a team in the NHL in 2025

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

People would rather stay home hence the large TV ratings.

Fair enough.

I think, at the end of the day, the NFL will come to Toronto (full time) with the agreement that they will support and promote the Argos and Ticats - i.e. ensure their survival.

And, in the long run, it will be best for everyone.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

the way US economy is going

Please don't say that. That is a no win for anyone.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Fair enough.

I think, at the end of the day, the NFL will come to Toronto (full time) with the agreement that they will support and promote the Argos and Ticats - i.e. ensure their survival.

And, in the long run, it will be best for everyone.

Agreed

Please don't say that. That is a no win for anyone.

Also agreed.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

Agreed


Also agreed.

As Ex CFL Commissioner Tom Wright said... the money needed to allow the Ticats and Argos to break even are "rounding errors" for the NFL.

If an NFL team were to come to Toronto and tie its ticket sales to Argo ticket (like the Leafs do to the Raptors), the Argos would easily break even.

If an NFL team were to come here and tie its Golden Horseshoe ticket sales to the Ticat tickets, the Ticats would be laughing.

If a Toronto NFL team were to say to sponsors "If you want to advertise with us, you need to also support (in a smaller way) the Ticats and/or Argos..."

Well, like I said, a Win-Win.

 

[htpwn]

Anyway, I am not the only one who says Toronto is a terrible sports town. An article was written recently (I forget the writer) on the subject.

Yes, the city is big. The city is rich. But, compared to other cities their size, the support is poor at best.

That article was written by ESPN, who in all likelihood would have difficultly finding Canada on a map, let alone write about one of it's cities.

Toronto's support is on par compared to other city's of it's size. The comparable cities are Dallas, Philadelphia, Houston, Washington, Miami, and Atlanta.

Atlanta: Has lost two NHL teams, poor support for NBA Hawks, fails to sell out MLB playoff games.
Miami: Terrible baseball attendance, terrible hockey attendance, and questionable support of the NBA.
Washington: Has lost two MLB teams and the 'Natinals' aren't exactly filling the place, similar NBA support to Toronto, and questionable NHL support.
Houston: Good MLB attendance, similar NBA support to Toronto.
Dallas: Poor NHL support, good NBA and MLB.
Philadelphia: Poor NBA support.

Seems to me Toronto is right in the middle of the pack, especially considering not one of the listed cities above have teams as consistently terrible as Toronto's.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

Hi htpwn :

Truth is, I don't really care and it is a silly argument <-- not what you are saying, the whole thing.

At the end of the day...

The only 2 sports I care about are hockey (no worries in Toronto there) and the CFL. And I (just) wish every person in Toronto would take in one CFL game a season.

The games are fun. The games are entertaining. The games deserve support.

If Toronto would support the Argos you would never hear a negative word from me about the city.

 

[Killion]

Furthermore, not only has Toronto never lost a major professional sports franchise, but aside from the Blue Jays (very) brief financial struggle in the early 21st century, they have never had a team even come close to relocating.

Then, where are the Tecumsehs', Toro's, Shamrocks, Blueshirts, Roadrunners, Torpedos', Planets, Huskies, Tornados, Rifles, Phantoms, Northmen, Thunderhawks, Falcons, Metro's, Blizzard & Toronto City playin htp?. I keep lookin for their stats in the sports pages, but nope, nuttin... admittedly Ive been gone awhile, but still.

I think, at the end of the day, the NFL will come to Toronto (full time) with the agreement that they will support and promote the Argos and Ticats - i.e. ensure their survival. And, in the long run, it will be best for everyone.

Sure thing. The mighty NFL in a magnificent gesture of magnanimity is going to prop up that sorry excuse for a sports franchise, owned by the same Dood out of Hamilton who also owns the CFL's BC Lions. Why & what for?. No my friend, they'll be calling in Billy the Exterminator & his messed up brother to deal with your precious Argo's...

Toronto hasnt had much of a serious interest in that team since John Candy, McNall & Gretzky bought it on a lark, and even then it was cyclical & short-lived. The CFL however needs Toronto in order to barely cling on to its profile as a "National" and serious league, as all of the major media outlets & bulk of corporate H.O.'s are located within the GTA. Toronto outgrew the CFL in about 1981.

Agreed. Also agreed.

What are you being so agreeable about?. You score some free Argo tickets?.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Then, where are the Tecumsehs', Toro's, Shamrocks, Blueshirts, Roadrunners, Torpedos', Planets, Huskies, Tornados, Rifles, Phantoms, Northmen, Thunderhawks, Falcons, Metro's, Blizzard & Toronto City playin htp?. I keep lookin for their stats in the sports pages, but nope, nuttin...



Sure thing. The mighty NFL in a magnificent gesture of magnanimity is going to prop up that sorry excuse for a sports franchise, owned by the same Dood out of Hamilton who also owns the CFL's BC Lions. Why & what for?. No my friend, they'll be calling in Billy the Exterminator & his messed up brother to deal with your precious Argo's...

Toronto hasnt had much of a serious interest in that team since John Candy, McNall & Gretzky bought it on a lark, and even then it was cyclical & short-lived. The CFL however needs Toronto in order to barely cling on to its profile as a "National" and serious league, as all of the major media outlets & bulk of corporate H.O.'s are located within the GTA. Toronto outgrew the CFL in about 1981.



What are you being so agreeable about?. You score some free Argo tickets?.

The fact the NFL will come and the US economy hopefully won't implode.

Your second paragraph is painful but true.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

The mighty NFL in a magnificent gesture of magnanimity is going to prop up that sorry excuse for a sports franchise, owned by the same Dood out of Hamilton who also owns the CFL's BC Lions. Why & what for?. No my friend, they'll be calling in Billy the Exterminator & his messed up brother to deal with your precious Argo's...

I disagree. I believe the CFL still has enough sway that an NFL team moving to Toronto would be pressured into ensuring the survival of the CFL in Southern Ontario.

 

[Melrose Munch]

That article was written by ESPN, who in all likelihood would have difficultly finding Canada on a map, let alone write about one of it's cities.

Toronto's support is on par compared to other city's of it's size. The comparable cities are Dallas, Philadelphia, Houston, Washington, Miami, and Atlanta.

Atlanta: Has lost two NHL teams, poor support for NBA Hawks, fails to sell out MLB playoff games.
Miami: Terrible baseball attendance, terrible hockey attendance, and questionable support of the NBA.
Washington: Has lost two MLB teams and the 'Natinals' aren't exactly filling the place, similar NBA support to Toronto, and questionable NHL support.
Houston: Good MLB attendance, similar NBA support to Toronto.
Dallas: Poor NHL support, good NBA and MLB.
Philadelphia: Poor NBA support.

Seems to me Toronto is right in the middle of the pack, especially considering not one of the listed cities above have teams as consistently terrible as Toronto's.

Now, because Snyder ran them into the ground. (How common is that sentence now) When Barkley and then AI3 where there they where number 2 or even 1.

 

[Melrose Munch]

I disagree. I believe the CFL still has enough sway that an NFL team moving to Toronto would be pressured into ensuring the survival of the CFL in Southern Ontario.

They don't IMO. Cohon was a mess in 2007. And that was a mild threat. If the CFL wants Southern Ontario they need to be better then they are now.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

Hi Killon,

I sure wish you would change that Avatar - I think that is what it is called.

It sure is unsettling - or perhaps that is what you are aiming for.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

They don't IMO. Cohon was a mess in 2007. And that was a mild threat. If the CFL wants Southern Ontario they need to be better then they are now.

If the NFL came here I don't think they would want to see the CFL fail - the optics would be terrible. I think, as a goodwill gesture as much as anything else, the NFL would step up and ensure the CFL survives.

Again, to ensure the CFL's survival in southern Ontario would be "rounding errors" for the NFL - it would not take that much.

 

[FoSotC]

Hi Killon,

I sure wish you would change that Avatar - I think that is what it is called.

It sure is unsettling - or perhaps that is what you are aiming for.

Looks like somebody isn't a King Crimson fan.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

Looks like somebody isn't a King Crimson fan.

No... truth is, I don't know who that is.

 

[Colin226]

Colin266 I can appreciate your love of the sport of hockey, seeing how you want it to grow so much. However the NHL operates as a business first and foremost. Simply put, Winnipeg lost its team because of business. Same with Atlanta, Kansas City, Quebec, Colorado and so forth. There should be no plan in the NHL offices to award franchises on some altruistic hockey growth scheme. Don't get me wrong, they should and will do everything reasonable to promote such growth. Their long term health depends on it. I would think whenever possible, they should prefer to grow from a profitable business model (i/e revenue sharing and such) The idea is that more profit due to more teams in Canada may actually be beneficial to hockey's overall growth. Therefore not selfish at all.

Well thank you, I appreciate that.. I guess I just get defensive being a Devils fan.. Seems like everyone is always on us because we are in a crowded market and haven't drawn well in the past, but having the Devils here has done wonders for the sport in NJ.. Rinks, development programs, and an explosion of high school teams in the last decade.. Talent like Van Reimsdyk is starting to appear

Hell, Nick Ebert (projected to go top 10 in next year's deep draft) got into hockey because he went to Devils practices with his dad and decided to try the sport.. No Devils, no top 10 pick.. So I fear that the sport's growth in the US will flatten out without the southern teams being there, but I guess we all come from different perspectives on the issue and I can respect that

 

[Killion]

I disagree. I believe the CFL still has enough sway that an NFL team moving to Toronto would be pressured into ensuring the survival of the CFL in Southern Ontario.

Well, its completely OT for this thread & Board but, no doubt, thats about all the Argo's & the CFL can hope for at this stage. Some sort of crazy extortion scam in order to extract as much as they can to pay for the Argo's move to another city. The CFL is wildly popular out west, its a great game, an excellent brand of football, but its not the NFL. Its 2nd tier. No amount of necromancy can bring it back to life in Toronto. Gone. Like Eatons College Street, Maple Leaf Gardens, Dempsey Brothers Hardware Store & those wonderful Christmas window displays Simpsons used to have up every year at Yonge & Queen. But you just go ahead & keep on hoping Lucy's gonna tee up that ball for your placekick Charlie Brown.

Note; And yes, that is a very disturbing avatar is it not?. MuHahahaaa.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

Well, its completely OT for this thread & Board but, no doubt, thats about all the Argo's & the CFL can hope for at this stage. Some sort of crazy extortion scam in order to extract as much as they can to pay for the Argo's move to another city. The CFL is wildly popular out west, its a great game, an excellent brand of football, but its not the NFL. Its 2nd tier. No amount of necromancy can bring it back to life in Toronto. Gone. Like Eatons College Street, Maple Leaf Gardens, Dempsey Brothers Hardware Store & those wonderful Christmas window displays Simpsons used to have up every year at Yonge & Queen. But you just go ahead & keep on hoping Lucy's gonna tee up that ball for your placekick Charlie Brown.

Again, I don't believe the NFL wants to see the CFL fail and I think it will take steps to ensure it survives.

In the mid 90's the NFL and TSN stepped up/in to ensure the CFL survived and I believe they would do so in this case. There is no down side to it and it would ease their entrance into the Canadian market.

 

[Ruslan Zainullin]

Well, its completely OT for this thread & Board but, no doubt, thats about all the Argo's & the CFL can hope for at this stage. Some sort of crazy extortion scam in order to extract as much as they can to pay for the Argo's move to another city. The CFL is wildly popular out west, its a great game, an excellent brand of football, but its not the NFL. Its 2nd tier. No amount of necromancy can bring it back to life in Toronto. Gone. Like Eatons College Street, Maple Leaf Gardens, Dempsey Brothers Hardware Store & those wonderful Christmas window displays Simpsons used to have up every year at Yonge & Queen. But you just go ahead & keep on hoping Lucy's gonna tee up that ball for your placekick Charlie Brown.

Note; And yes, that is a very disturbing avatar is it not?. MuHahahaaa.

The CFL is a strange animal. Football has one of the biggest talent pools to draw from out of almost any sport with all the college football players yet there is only league in the world where you can make great money playing. If you don't get an NFL spot you are left playing arena ball or the CFL or some startup league in the states somewhere. It is a strange animal, and for some strange reason the talent pool in the CFL is decidedly second rate compared to the NFL. Despite its popularity out west its kind of a miracle that the CFL survives sometimes.

 

[kdb209]

Melrose,
We all agree Toronto and Montreal bring in a large chunk of the Canadian revenue. I just think the rest of us don't believe it is greater than 50%

Based on last years Forbes' numbers - <insert Forbes' grain-of-salt disclaimer here> - Toronto + Montreal made up ~47% of total Canadian team revenues. Adding Winnipeg (and assuming Edmonton level revenues) drops that number to ~42%.