NHL in 2025 (mod: more Canadian teams, fewer US sunbelt teams)

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

My NFL-CFL theory is this...

The NFL gets a NEW 80K seat stadium in Toronto (with financial help from the city and province ) based on the promise to ensure the CFL survives in Southern Ontario. With a new stadium it would easily find 80K season ticket holders...

It then tells the STH that they are required to purchase 2 Argo or Ticat tickets - depending on the ticket holder's home location. The tickets would not have to be expensive - $40 each. Next to the cost of NFL tickets, $80 won't make a difference. Fans might not like it but, just like with the Leafs-Raptors, they will accept it.

Assuming a 75 - 25 split (Argos - Ticats) that would provide $4.8M in additional revenue for the Argos and $1.6M in revenue to the Ticats.

Add in sponsorship help and this small gesture would ensures the survival of the CFL in Southern Ontario. A Win-Win...

The NFL gets an International Market it craves and the CFL ensure survival in Southern Ontario.

 

[Killion]

Again, I don't believe the NFL wants to see the CFL fail and I think it will take steps to ensure it survives. In the mid 90's the NFL and TSN stepped up/in to ensure the CFL survived and I believe they would do so in this case. There is no down side to it and it would ease their entrance into the Canadian market.

As I stated earlier, the CFL in Toronto is an anachronism. Outgrown, surpassed. A quaint reminder of the cities late 19th through early 21st Century history. Not in harmony with its place & time. The CFL will survive just fine without it, and believe me, theres absolutely no way an NFL & CFL franchise could co-exist as you suggest. Not happening. Theres no upside for the NFL, not much of a one for the Argo's who would just be given a reprieve, propped up by NFL largesse' (if they got any). The stepchild no one wants to acknowledge let alone adopt (as in purchase), very few even feeling interested or enthusiastic enough to support at the gate. It is what it is.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

As I stated earlier, the CFL in Toronto is an anachronism. Outgrown, surpassed. A quaint reminder of the cities late 19th through early 21st Century history. Not in harmony with its place & time. The CFL will survive just fine without it, and believe me, theres absolutely no way an NFL & CFL franchise could co-exist as you suggest. Not happening. Theres no upside for the NFL, not much of a one for the Argo's who would just be given a reprieve, propped up by NFL largesse' (if they got any). The stepchild no one wants to acknowledge let alone adopt (as in purchase), very few even feeling interested or enthusiastic enough to support at the gate. It is what it is.

I guess we will see.

Besides, it is currently a moot point. The NFL is not in Toronto and it has no plans to come here. Toronto has no NFL stadium - a billion dollar fly in the ointment. Add in the Bills, a team that wants to remain in Buffalo, have claimed this territory as its own.

As Bob McCown has said many times, people have said the NFL was coming to Toronto for 40+ years and for 40 years these people have been wrong.

I guess we can worry about it and its affect (positive or negative) on the Argos once that 40 year cycle ends. If it ends.

 

[Melrose Munch]

I guess we will see.

Besides, it is currently a moot point. The NFL is not in Toronto and it has no plans to come here. Toronto has no NFL stadium - a billion dollar fly in the ointment. Add in the Bills, a team that wants to remain in Buffalo, have claimed this territory as its own.

As Bob McCown has said many times, people have said the NFL was coming to Toronto for 40+ years and for 40 years these people have been wrong.

I guess we can worry about it and its affect (positive or negative) on the Argos once that 40 year cycle ends. If it ends.

That's my main problem. All this talk from my friends and they didn't go to the Bills games. I think the NFL would have been more keen if we had shown up. And for the stadium? Rogers Family better pay, since they want this.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

That's my main problem. All this talk from my friends and they didn't go to the Bills games. I think the NFL would have been more keen if we had shown up. And for the stadium? Rogers Family better pay, since they want this.

Maybe as some people think...

The Bills will stay in Buffalo (post Wilson) and Toronto will be an annual stop. They will claim Toronto is theirs and prevent other teams from coming into the market.

Anyway buddy. It is late and my head hurts. Off to bed. Have a great night.

 

[knorthern knight]

Again, I don't believe the NFL wants to see the CFL fail and I think it will take steps to ensure it survives.

In the mid 90's the NFL and TSN stepped up/in to ensure the CFL survived and I believe they would do so in this case. There is no down side to it and it would ease their entrance into the Canadian market.

Darn tootin right they will. The NFL has 2 very powerful reasons to ensure that the CFL continues to exist...

1. An anti-trust shield... US players can always go play in the CFL. Don't laugh, that legal argument gets used.
2. The CFL is heavily supported by Canadian taxpayers and it's a development/feeder league for the NFL. Of course the NFL doesn't want it to die. At one point years ago, it seemed that every Grey Cup (or playoff game if his team lost) was some player's "last CFL game before heading to the NFL".
   • Rocket Ismail
   • Joe Theisman
   • Doug Flutie
   • Peter Liske
   • Warren Moon
   • etc, etc
   I got sick and tired of "John Smith's last game in the CFL before heading to the NFL".

 

[TopT]

Please don't say that. That is a no win for anyone.

I understand that but just trying to be realistic.

Greece has 40k debt per person; US have 44k.
Things just dont look good.

 

[drive45]

prog rock

Hi Killon,

I sure wish you would change that Avatar - I think that is what it is called.

It sure is unsettling - or perhaps that is what you are aiming for.

it's the album cover from King Crimson's debut album

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Court_of_the_Crimson_King

 

[htpwn]

Hi htpwn :

Truth is, I don't really care and it is a silly argument <-- not what you are saying, the whole thing.

Yup, you are indeed correct on that one. The discussion probably stretches the definition of what is on or off-topic for this thread as well.

Then, where are the Tecumsehs', Toro's, Shamrocks, Blueshirts, Roadrunners, Torpedos', Planets, Huskies, Tornados, Rifles, Phantoms, Northmen, Thunderhawks, Falcons, Metro's, Blizzard & Toronto City playin htp?. I keep lookin for their stats in the sports pages, but nope, nuttin... admittedly Ive been gone awhile, but still.

Well, I did say "major professional sport teams," so half of those don't really count.

But, I did choose to ignore teams like the Shamrocks, Blueshirts, and others... though I'm not really sure a city in the 1910s have much to do with it today. Toronto was smaller then Buffalo at that time.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

Based on last years Forbes' numbers - <insert Forbes' grain-of-salt disclaimer here> - Toronto + Montreal made up ~47% of total Canadian team revenues. Adding Winnipeg (and assuming Edmonton level revenues) drops that number to ~42%.

Yeah, I don't buy Forbes' figures at all.

Having said that, Melrose Munch claimed that the majority of the NHL revenues derived in Canada "is coming from the pockets of Montreal and Toronto."

Now, even though your flawed data shows that as NOT being true, your data only includes money made by individual clubs and, therefore, leaves another $200 -$300MM of Canadian revenues completely unaccounted for. The NHL derives a lot more revenue out of Canada than the sum of the revenue earned by the Canadian NHL clubs alone. Aside from close to $200MM per year in national TV revenues (which the NHL divides among all NHL teams) the NHL does a booming business in Canada in merchandise and licensing.

If the NHL (including its Canadian clubs) made about $1 billion in revenue in 2010-11 in Canada total and the Canadiens and Leafs made say $350MM combined, you can see that Melrose's claim is way off.

 

[Ryan34222]

Maybe as some people think...

The Bills will stay in Buffalo (post Wilson) and Toronto will be an annual stop. They will claim Toronto is theirs and prevent other teams from coming into the market.

Anyway buddy. It is late and my head hurts. Off to bed. Have a great night.

That's a good point.. If it isn't Buffalo moving to Toronto full time the bills will definitely claim Toronto as their territory...

Anyways NFL doesn't want Canada, they already have it IMO, every football fan (minus Toronto) has a fav CFL and NFL team.. NFL wants a bigger stag and Europe is the goal.
Ever hear Goodell go all 'Bettman like' when being asked about Toronto as a market? He gives the same Bettman yada yada It's basically..
"Stadium issues next question please"

 

[Grudy0]

What "buying patterns"?

Generalizing, aren't there more "northern US" cities economically struggling as compared to southern cities? I'm not sure. And wouldn't it be southern cities where people might be more likely to be outside enjoying other activities, including spending their money on different things other than going to hockey games or watching hockey (or basketball, imagine) on TV?

But again, you explain what "buying patterns" you're referring to, if you don't mind.

Hey, Grudy0, take a look at this, it might have a very remote connection to what you're implying:
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=985985&page=2
Post #49 and the OP.

I think you are relatively close to what I'm saying...

After 3 more pages of discussing the Toronto market ad nauseum, many people have made it clear the Leafs are the most important and most supported team in the market. The other franchises in comparison pale with respect to support. Montreal's is also hockey-mad, and all of the Canadian franchises provide the highest amount of revenue in the NHL.

Within the US I can't really say there is a place where hockey is the number one spectator sport by attendance. And as you get closer to my "I-70 line", it certainly appears that winning is an important factor in order for an NHL franchise to maintain the ability to be profitable, as there is too much competition for the sports dollar. Many could read that as the NHL being in non-traditional markets.

Every market that has had a team within 50 miles of the "I-70 line" has had issues here or there. There were some north of that line that had issues:
Cleveland Barons folded,
recent issues under Dollar Bill Wirtz's Blackhawks ownership during his last few years,
the Islanders and Devils don't sell out routinely,
some of the Canadian franchises about to go tango uniform in the mid to late '90's because of a weak Canadian dollar, which did cause two franchises to move, another two to almost move and another to go into bankruptcy protection)

As a generalization, here in the US, professional football is king. The NHL will almost always take a backseat to the NFL. In Canada, the NHL is king.

And then we go down the road about "non-traditional markets", when Canadians don't realize what an NHL team here in the US is up against. Philadelphia is a non-traditional market as people don't play hockey outside here during the winter. Yes, they are a good market and they get snow occasionally, and have had a team for over 40 years. It is the only franchise that hasn't had any serious issues from the 1967 expansion.

I'm all for expanding or relocating into Canada. I just would like people to realize that you cannot unseat football if you don't try. You cannot carve your niche and build fan support if you don't try. For all of the "problems" I've discussed, there are success stories, most recently in Nashville and Tampa Bay, as well as turn-arounds in St. Louis, Chicago, Washington and Pittsburgh.

It isn't like the other sports aren't trying to compete, either.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Yeah, I don't buy Forbes' figures at all.

Having said that, Melrose Munch claimed that the majority of the NHL revenues derived in Canada "is coming from the pockets of Montreal and Toronto."

Now, even though your flawed data shows that as NOT being true, your data only includes money made by individual clubs and, therefore, leaves another $200 -$300MM of Canadian revenues completely unaccounted for. The NHL derives a lot more revenue out of Canada than the sum of the revenue earned by the Canadian NHL clubs alone. Aside from close to $200MM per year in national TV revenues (which the NHL divides among all NHL teams) the NHL does a booming business in Canada in merchandise and licensing.

If the NHL (including its Canadian clubs) made about $1 billion in revenue in 2010-11 in Canada total and the Canadiens and Leafs made say $350MM combined, you can see that Melrose's claim is way off.

I think I would trust kdb before you, no offense. And 47 percent of 1 billion or even 1.5 is not 350m. The problem is you are trying to claim that Canadian teams are equal, including one that has not played a game yet.

 

[MoreOrr]

I think you are relatively close to what I'm saying...

After 3 more pages of discussing the Toronto market ad nauseum, many people have made it clear the Leafs are the most important and most supported team in the market. The other franchises in comparison pale with respect to support. Montreal's is also hockey-mad, and all of the Canadian franchises provide the highest amount of revenue in the NHL.

Within the US I can't really say there is a place where hockey is the number one spectator sport by attendance. And as you get closer to my "I-70 line", it certainly appears that winning is an important factor in order for an NHL franchise to maintain the ability to be profitable, as there is too much competition for the sports dollar. Many could read that as the NHL being in non-traditional markets.

Every market that has had a team within 50 miles of the "I-70 line" has had issues here or there. There were some north of that line that had issues:
Cleveland Barons folded,
recent issues under Dollar Bill Wirtz's Blackhawks ownership during his last few years,
the Islanders and Devils don't sell out routinely,
some of the Canadian franchises about to go tango uniform in the mid to late '90's because of a weak Canadian dollar, which did cause two franchises to move, another two to almost move and another to go into bankruptcy protection)

As a generalization, here in the US, professional football is king. The NHL will almost always take a backseat to the NFL. In Canada, the NHL is king.

And then we go down the road about "non-traditional markets", when Canadians don't realize what an NHL team here in the US is up against. Philadelphia is a non-traditional market as people don't play hockey outside here during the winter. Yes, they are a good market and they get snow occasionally, and have had a team for over 40 years. It is the only franchise that hasn't had any serious issues from the 1967 expansion.

I'm all for expanding or relocating into Canada. I just would like people to realize that you cannot unseat football if you don't try. You cannot carve your niche and build fan support if you don't try. For all of the "problems" I've discussed, there are success stories, most recently in Nashville and Tampa Bay, as well as turn-arounds in St. Louis, Chicago, Washington and Pittsburgh.

It isn't like the other sports aren't trying to compete, either.

So in fact, my original response to you wasn't that far off the mark afterall, in relation to your own opinion. It does to some "degree", pardon the pun, have to do with climate, as well as other sports to compete with in those markets. The further south you go, the more competition, not only with other sports but also just simply with other activities that people can spend their time and money on rather than hockey. But as you say, the NHL shouldn't just avoid those markets, it should logically try to establish itself wherever possible, and we should expect some failures along with some success stories.

I also think that for those two leagues which have their Seasons most overlapped, the NHL and NBA, it would be better for both if they tried not to overlap more than necessary. Overlapping in:
The San Francisco / San Jose area, perhaps
in Los Angeles
in Chicago
in Dallas
in Detroit
in Toronto
in Boston
in the New York City area
in the Washington/Baltimore area
and in Philadelphia...
Fine.
But beyond that, in smaller cities then both leagues might be pushing their luck... One is likely to eventually fail, generally the one for which the market might be less traditional for that sport.

 

[PanthersHockey1]

So in fact, my original response to you wasn't that far off the mark afterall, in relation to your own opinion. It does to some "degree", pardon the pun, have to do with climate, as well as other sports to compete with in those markets. The further south you go, the more competition, not only with other sports but also just simply with other activities that people can spend their time and money on rather than hockey. But as you say, the NHL shouldn't just avoid those markets, it should logical try to establish itself wherever possible, and we should expect some failures along with some success stories.

I also think that for those two leagues which have their Seasons most overlapped, the NHL and NBA, would would be better for both if they tried not to overlap more than necessary. Overlapping in:
The San Francisco / San Jose area, perhaps
in Los Angeles
in Chicago
in Dallas
in Detroit
in Toronto
in Boston
in the New York City area
in the Washington/Baltimore area
and in Philadelphia...
Fine.
But beyond that, in smaller cities then both leagues might be pushing their luck... One is likely to eventually fail, generally the one for which the market might be less traditional for that sport.

I always felt this was the problem with the south Florida sports market. On any given night, there are an endless number of entertainment options for people and three metro cities in palm beach, ft lauderdale, and Miami located less than 100 miles from north to south. You simply can not draw enough fans if you don't have superstars or more importantly win on a consistent basis.

This is true
For many cities not including the south. don't make me put up a picture of what arenas in Chicago and Washington looked like before recent draft successes.

I happen to believe that winnipeg will naturally succeed because hockey has a virtual
Monopoly as an entertainment venue for a geographic radius stretching 300 miles in any direction.

There is no doubt in my mind that there is a correlation between winning and fan attendance in the sunbelt. If the panthers can build and maintain draft success the team will become one of the most successful franchises in the NHL.

 

[Killion]

Well, I did say "major professional sport teams," so half of those don't really count.

They were all "professional sports teams" yer Honor. My learned friend is playing fast & loose with his revisionist history & ergodic references, as some of those teams mentioned never even played a single game. I dont know where he gets his information from...

And then we go down the road about "non-traditional markets", when Canadians don't realize what an NHL team here in the US is up against. Philadelphia is a non-traditional market as people don't play hockey outside here during the winter. Yes, they are a good market and they get snow occasionally, and have had a team for over 40 years. It is the only franchise that hasn't had any serious issues from the 1967 expansion.

I'm all for expanding or relocating into Canada. I just would like people to realize that you cannot unseat football if you don't try. You cannot carve your niche and build fan support if you don't try. For all of the "problems" I've discussed, there are success stories, most recently in Nashville and Tampa Bay, as well as turn-arounds in St. Louis, Chicago, Washington and Pittsburgh.

It isn't like the other sports aren't trying to compete, either.

Actually, Philly did have some issues right out of the box, however, they worked through them between 1967 & 72. Attendance at the first regular season game at the Spectrum in 67 was a mere 7800 & change. Philadelphians' were not quick to embrace the Flyers, in part due to the protectionism which was exerted by the 06'er's in making good players available to the expansion franchises. Slowly & gradually the fans did come around, things really starting to gel in 72-73 with the birth of the Broad Street Bullies, their notoriety & infamy driving the box office, identifiable heros' in Clarke, Parent et al, the synergy between the Flyers & the cities status as a blue collar hard working town, underdogs & tough as nails captured; Stanley Cups. Competitive & entertaining as all Hell ever since.

No matter where you look, be it the Habs, the Leafs, Detroit or wherever, virtually all teams have had problems getting the engine going from an ice cold block. Ownership is critical. Absent an Ed Snider, a Conn Smythe & his finagling over getting the Gardens built, the Norrises' in Chicago & Detroit and their propping up of the Bruins & MSG, whose to say if any of these franchises wouldnt have expired in their early days?. Teams like Phoenix, Columbus, Florida, and the now deceased Atlanta have never enjoyed decent ownership, transients with little affinity or even care for the game, with problems either in the boardroom, with their buildings/lease situations and on the ice.

Hockey's never going to usurp football, baseball or basketball but it can & has carved out a decent little niche' for itself in the US, something to be proud of, and under the right guidance/ownership can & will work in almost any market its dropped into, be it Birmingham or Austin, Seattle or Hartford.

 

[Fourier]

I think I would trust kdb before you, no offense. And 47 percent of 1 billion or even 1.5 is not 350m. The problem is you are trying to claim that Canadian teams are equal, including one that has not played a game yet.

kdb's numbers do not suggest that Torornto and Montreal generate 47% of the $CDN revenue. That I believe is Ghost's point.

In fact, the Forbes numbers, even if we believed them are not the whole story since they both include/ and exclude a substantial amount of revenue that is centrally generated.

 

[Melrose Munch]

kdb's numbers do not suggest that Torornto and Montreal generate 47% of the $CDN revenue. That I believe is Ghost's point.

In fact, the Forbes numbers, even if we believed them are not the whole story since they both include/ and exclude a substantial amount of revenue that is centrally generated.

Ghost point was that Montreal and Toronto do not Generate the majority of of Revenue for Canadian team. kdb proved that false.

 

[Killion]

kdb's numbers do not suggest that Torornto and Montreal generate 47% of the $CDN revenue. That I believe is Ghost's point.

In fact, the Forbes numbers, even if we believed them are not the whole story since they both include/ and exclude a substantial amount of revenue that is centrally generated.

The last numbers I saw claimed Canadian teams account for somewhere between 28 & 44% of league revenues, a huge range. Overall, Toronto lead the league, Montreal in the number 3 position, Vancouver at #9, the rest in the teens with Edmonton around 24th....

Then there was the "leaked" document of a few years ago, whereby Toronto showed single game ticket revenues to be just north of $2M excluding suites (another $40M over the season), with the rest of the Canadian franchises all within the top 12 in that category, the lowest around $1.1M per game.

We also have to add local only, per team broadcast revenues including radio and PPV, parking, concessions, merchandising sales, local licensing deals etc etc etc. Frankly, its impossible to determine as much of this information is private & unavailable. Its like chasing Ghosts...

 

[GreenHornet]

The original Flames, against all odds & many a naysayer surprising everyone and doing fairly well, capturing the imagination of the sports fans in Atlanta. It was only due to the then owners financial meltdown of his real estate holdings & the need for quick cash that he turned down a local offer led by Hollywood acting legend Glenn Ford of $12-15M for the franchise & instead accepted Rounder Nelson Skalbanias' offer of $25M for a relo to Calgary. Momentum was lost, a lot of people devastated. When they re-entered under Turners group, everything was looking great until they too off-loaded the team with the Atlanta Spirit Group eventually owning the Thrashers & NBA franchise & held the arena mgmnt contract, and who then deliberately ran the franchise into the ditch over 10yrs under the utter & completely incompetent guidance of Don Waddell.

You've pretty much got it in a nutshell, though a couple of minor nits to pick:

First, Glenn Ford's offer (if memory serves) was for around $8 million, while Skalbania doubled that to $16 million, which was a record for an NHL franchise at the time.

Now, Skalbania eventually did some time in the clink for theft years later. I can only hope such karma is visited upon Levenson, Gearon and the rest of those clowns at Atlanta $pirit Group some day.

As to the aforementioned A$G, they actually owned the team only about 7 years after buying it from Turner Sports (and Ted wasn't even really in the picture himself for the final year or two of that reign following the AOL/TW merger).

 

[GreenHornet]

Teams like Phoenix, Columbus, Florida, and the now deceased Atlanta have never enjoyed decent ownership, transients with little affinity or even care for the game, with problems either in the boardroom, with their buildings/lease situations and on the ice.

Hockey's never going to usurp football, baseball or basketball but it can & has carved out a decent little niche' for itself in the US, something to be proud of, and under the right guidance/ownership can & will work in almost any market its dropped into, be it Birmingham or Austin, Seattle or Hartford.

See, this is what those in the "Atlanta (or insert whatever other Southern city you prefer) will never succeed because football will always be king" crowd never get.

 

[Bjorn Le]

That article was written by ESPN, who in all likelihood would have difficultly finding Canada on a map, let alone write about one of it's cities.

Toronto's support is on par compared to other city's of it's size. The comparable cities are Dallas, Philadelphia, Houston, Washington, Miami, and Atlanta.

Atlanta: Has lost two NHL teams, poor support for NBA Hawks, fails to sell out MLB playoff games.
Miami: Terrible baseball attendance, terrible hockey attendance, and questionable support of the NBA.
Washington: Has lost two MLB teams and the 'Natinals' aren't exactly filling the place, similar NBA support to Toronto, and questionable NHL support.
Houston: Good MLB attendance, similar NBA support to Toronto.
Dallas: Poor NHL support, good NBA and MLB.
Philadelphia: Poor NBA support.

Seems to me Toronto is right in the middle of the pack, especially considering not one of the listed cities above have teams as consistently terrible as Toronto's.

Dallas does not have poor NHL support. Wasn't more than a few years ago when they were one of (And they still are despite ownership issues) the most most valuable teams in the league.

 

[Mayor Bee]

I think you are relatively close to what I'm saying...

Every market that has had a team within 50 miles of the "I-70 line" has had issues here or there. There were some north of that line that had issues:
Cleveland Barons folded

Ownership is critical. Absent an Ed Snider, a Conn Smythe & his finagling over getting the Gardens built, the Norrises' in Chicago & Detroit and their propping up of the Bruins & MSG, whose to say if any of these franchises wouldnt have expired in their early days?. Teams like Phoenix, Columbus, Florida, and the now deceased Atlanta have never enjoyed decent ownership, transients with little affinity or even care for the game, with problems either in the boardroom, with their buildings/lease situations and on the ice.

I'm fond of saying that no team since WWII has folded or relocated if it has both strong ownership (which would be a combination of willingness to improve the product as well as ability to withstand losses) and a strong venue (which is not only the building, but the lease terms as well).

In the case of the Barons, they lacked both. I've gone into some detail on other topics about their problems, but it had nothing to do with a market failure on the part of Cleveland or the Iron Triangle.

See, this is what those in the "Atlanta (or insert whatever other Southern city you prefer) will never succeed because football will always be king" crowd never get.

Throw in that there's a decent amount of overlap between football and hockey fans once there's exposure to both. I lived a year in Tennessee, and amongst the group of friends I was in, I was the only hockey fan at the beginning....which grew to 15 by the end of the year. The speed, the physicality, the precision, and the top-speed adjustments are all something that football fans can relate to.

What doesn't help is when hockey fans want to rail against the idea of football being entrenched to the point of repulsing football fans. There's no law that says you can't enjoy both. No one enjoys being told by football fans how much hockey blows, which is something to keep in mind going the other way.

 

[Killion]

Now, Skalbania eventually did some time in the clink for theft years later. I can only hope such karma is visited upon Levenson, Gearon and the rest of those clowns at Atlanta $pirit Group some day.

Whats a few million & 3yrs between friends?...
And damn straight on that one...

See, this is what those in the "Atlanta (or insert whatever other Southern city you prefer) will never succeed because football will always be king" crowd never get.

Thats what were here for.
Straighten them right out of their Levis.

Hornet Gun... Check.
Hornet Sting... Check.
Lets Roll, Kato!.

 

[Jeffrey93]

My NFL-CFL theory is this...

The NFL gets a NEW 80K seat stadium in Toronto (with financial help from the city and province ) based on the promise to ensure the CFL survives in Southern Ontario. With a new stadium it would easily find 80K season ticket holders...

HA!! They can't fill the SkyDome for Bills games when they are giving tickets away!! Toronto has been tested and proven it isn't all that into the NFL.