NHL in 2025 (mod: more Canadian teams, fewer US sunbelt teams)

[Jeffrey93]

The majority of the money -- i.e., 50% plus -- the NHL makes in Canada does not come from the cities of Toronto and Montreal. Don't be ridiculous.

Up until this year there were only 6 teams in Canada. Is it THAT far fetched to think 2 of 6 (33%) teams generate 50% of the revenue?

Forbes Revenue List 2010:
Toronto $187M
Montreal $163M
Vancouver $119M
Calgary $98M
Ottawa $96M
Edmonton $87M

Total Canadian Revenues: $580M
Toronto + Montreal Revenues: $350M

Toronto + Montreal as % of Canadian Revenues: 60%

 

[MAROONSRoad]

Up until this year there were only 6 teams in Canada. Is it THAT far fetched to think 2 of 6 (33%) teams generate 50% of the revenue?

Forbes Revenue List 2010:
Toronto $187M
Montreal $163M
Vancouver $119M
Calgary $98M
Ottawa $96M
Edmonton $87M

Total Canadian Revenues: $580M
Toronto + Montreal Revenues: $350M

Toronto + Montreal as % of Canadian Revenues: 60%

First, your math is wrong. Total Canadian NHL team revenue based on your figures above is $750MM, not $580MM.

Second, you forgot to include non-team revenue the NHL makes in Canada in your "Total Canadian Revenues," which I suggest is at least $250MM including the national TV deals with CBC, TSN, RDS and all merchandise and licensing, etc.

That would mean the NHL makes about $1 billion per year in Canada.

According to your data from Forbes, the Leafs and Canadiens had combined total revenue of $350 million.

$350 million is closer to 1/3rd of Canadian NHL revenue being derived specifically from the Leafs and Canadiens.

 

[headsigh]

HA!! They can't fill the SkyDome for Bills games when they are giving tickets away!! Toronto has been tested and proven it isn't all that into the NFL.

I thought they did fill it up?

I don't follow the NFL as much, if it's football I'll watch "college" football though. Though it's barely amateur sports anymore and the postseason's done all to hell, it's fun.

 

[GreenHornet]

Hornet Gun... Check.
Hornet Sting... Check.
Lets Roll, Kato!.

 

[Killion]

Yepp, n' Daddy drove Whiskey in a Black Dodge so dont be messin with Southern Mans NHL if ya'll know whats good for ya. Dont come round here no more with your metal detectors & ground penetrating radar. We Sentinels from the Knights of the Golden Circle are watching your every move; from Oak Island in Nova Scotia to DeCourcy off the east coast of Vancouver Island to the Danville Cemetery in Virginia... .

 

[Melrose Munch]

First, your math is wrong. Total Canadian NHL team revenue based on your figures above is $750MM, not $580MM.

Second, you forgot to include non-team revenue the NHL makes in Canada in your "Total Canadian Revenues," which I suggest is at least $250MM including the national TV deals with CBC, TSN, RDS and all merchandise and licensing, etc.

That would mean the NHL makes about $1 billion per year in Canada.

According to your data from Forbes, the Leafs and Canadiens had combined total revenue of $350 million.

$350 million is closer to 1/3rd of Canadian NHL revenue being derived specifically from the Leafs and Canadiens.

Your playing with the goal posts. Furthermore no one is talking about non team revenue. I and Jeff are talking about teams revenues from last year. None of this ancillary stuff. Toronto and Montreal make up 46.7 percent of Canadian Revenue base off teams alone, not any of this other BS you keep saying. So stop using that Canadian teams make 40 percent of revenue. Because its coming out of the pockets of the east, not the west.

 

[Melrose Munch]

HA!! They can't fill the SkyDome for Bills games when they are giving tickets away!! Toronto has been tested and proven it isn't all that into the NFL.

Hamilton can't fill up for the Bulldogs. Argos draw files.

Try Again.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

Your playing with the goal posts.

No, in that post I was correcting someone's obviously faulty math.

You are the one that set the goal posts in the first place by responding to a poster's claim that a certain amount of revenue is derived in Canada with the following:

Well that is the last 6 years. Before that we lost two teams and and were about to lose two more. And besides the majority of that 40 percent is coming from the pockets of Montreal and Toronto. Everything else is true though.

It is you, caught in an error or exaggeration, that is trying to change the topic. Fact is the majority of Canadian NHL revenue does not come from "the pockets of Montreal and Toronto" whatever exactly you are trying to claim by that.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

Your playing with the goal posts. Furthermore no one is talking about non team revenue. I and Jeff are talking about teams revenues from last year. None of this ancillary stuff. Toronto and Montreal make up 46.7 percent of Canadian Revenue base off teams alone, not any of this other BS you keep saying. So stop using that Canadian teams make 40 percent of revenue. Because its coming out of the pockets of the east, not the west.

The bolded part is BS. You responded to a poster that claimed 40% of NHL revenue is derived in Canada. NO ONE has ever claimed that that much revenue was derived in Canada on team revenue alone. That would be ludicrous. If that was the case, almost 50% of NHL revenue would be derived in Canada once you added Canadian non team revenue.

You stated clearly that a majority of the that 40% came from Montreal and Toronto.

And besides the majority of that 40 percent is coming from the pockets of Montreal and Toronto. Everything else is true though.

Now you are trying to weasel out of your clearly erroneous claim.

 

[Confucius]

No, in that post I was correcting someone's obviously faulty math.

You are the one that set the goal posts in the first place by responding to a poster's claim that a certain amount of revenue is derived in Canada with the following:



It is you, caught in an error or exaggeration, that is trying to change the topic. Fact is the majority of Canadian NHL revenue does not come from "the pockets of Montreal and Toronto" whatever exactly you are trying to claim by that.

Alrighty then....
Where does the majority come from? Afterall if you combine the two teams they have the majority of the fans.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

Alrighty then....
Where does the majority come from? Afterall if you combine the two teams they have the majority of the fans.

The answer to that question has already been posted above. It may or may not be true that 50% plus of NHL fans in Canada are fans of the TMLs or Habs. That isn't the issue. The issue is the sources of revenue.

I'd estimate that almost 2/3rd of the NHL revenue in Canada comes from sources other than the TMLs or Habs. To take one example: national TV revenues. The CBC, TSN and RDS pay a lot of money to the NHL each year partly for the rights to broadcast the Stanley Cup playoffs in English or French. In the case of TSN, they even broadcast a number of games that don't include any Canadian teams. In any case, it makes little sense to attribute such revenue to fans of certain teams which is indirect at best. Are the Leafs responsible for the $$$ that CBC pays the NHL because someone that happens to be a Leafs fan watches the SCFs between the Canucks and Bruins? Fact is a lot of people are NHL fans in addition to their primary allegiance. Revenues are not calculated that way. They are calculated by source.

 

[Confucius]

The answer to that question has already been posted above. It may or may not be true that 50% plus of NHL fans in Canada are fans of the TMLs or Habs. That isn't the issue. The issue is the sources of revenue.

I'd estimate that almost 2/3rd of the NHL revenue in Canada comes from sources other than the TMLs or Habs. To take one example: national TV revenues. The CBC, TSN and RDS pay a lot of money to the NHL each year partly for the rights to broadcast the Stanley Cup playoffs in English or French. In the case of TSN, they even broadcast a number of games that don't include any Canadian teams. In any case, it makes little sense to attribute such revenue to fans of certain teams which is indirect at best. Are the Leafs responsible for the $$$ that CBC pays the NHL because someone that happens to be a Leafs fan watches the SCFs between the Canucks and Bruins? Fact is a lot of people are NHL fans in addition to their primary allegiance. Revenues are not calculated that way. They are calculated by source.

Regarding the Nationally broadcast games. Which team, to the Chagrin of hockey fans all over the country is featured the majority of the time on HNIC? Add in the number of times Montreal is featured......
Lets not forget all of the RDS money can be attributed solely to the Habs. I think we know which two teams are carrying the lions share. Not that the other 5 teams aren't good solid markets because they certainly are, they just aren't Toronto or Montreal.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

Regarding the Nationally broadcast games. Which team, to the Chagrin of hockey fans all over the country is featured the majority of the time on HNIC? Add in the number of times Montreal is featured......
Lets not forget all of the RDS money can be attributed solely to the Habs. I think we know which two teams are carrying the lions share. Not that the other 5 teams aren't good solid markets because they certainly are, they just aren't Toronto or Montreal.

I'm not trying to diminish the size of the fan bases of the Leafs and the Habs. They are huge. Rather, I was responding to a very specific claim made by another poster.

 

[Fourier]

The last numbers I saw claimed Canadian teams account for somewhere between 28 & 44% of league revenues, a huge range. Overall, Toronto lead the league, Montreal in the number 3 position, Vancouver at #9, the rest in the teens with Edmonton around 24th....

Then there was the "leaked" document of a few years ago, whereby Toronto showed single game ticket revenues to be just north of $2M excluding suites (another $40M over the season), with the rest of the Canadian franchises all within the top 12 in that category, the lowest around $1.1M per game.

We also have to add local only, per team broadcast revenues including radio and PPV, parking, concessions, merchandising sales, local licensing deals etc etc etc. Frankly, its impossible to determine as much of this information is private & unavailable. Its like chasing Ghosts...

Before you got here this was a major topic for a fair bit. I called it the great 1/3 wars. If I get time I can point you to some of this if you like.

 

[Melrose Munch]

GHOST you and all the other Canadians claim we give 40 percent of revenue from 6 teams. How is it wrong to say the majority of the 40 is from the east?

 

[Melrose Munch]

I'm not trying to diminish the size of the fan bases of the Leafs and the Habs. They are huge. Rather, I was responding to a very specific claim made by another poster.

Yes you are and this is the core of the issue. You are the one who brought up non hockey revenue first. My point is the same as Jeffs minus the calculation error.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

GHOST you and all the other Canadians claim we give 40 percent of revenue from 6 teams. How is it wrong to say the majority of the 40 is from the east?

? Never claimed that. And I'm not entirely sure what you are saying either.

I have read the claim that about 1/3rd of NHL revenue is derived in Canada. I believe that claim was made a few years back by the Toronto Star -- not entirely sure. I have never seen a credible source for the 40% figure mentioned in this thread which seems improbable based on the available evidence and since Canada only had 20% of the teams.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

Yes you are and this is the core of the issue. You are the one who brought up non hockey revenue first. My point is the same as Jeffs minus the calculation error.

Changing the goal posts when it suits you, eh?

 

[Killion]

Before you got here this was a major topic for a fair bit. I called it the great 1/3 wars. If I get time I can point you to some of this if you like.

First of all Professor, before I got here you people didnt have a clue what you were talking about.

Secondly. I was fully engaged in your Fractional 1/3rd Wars as a Remote Viewing Expert & was responsible for leaving more Infracted Dead Rabbits on the field than those destroyed at the Battle of Antietam.

But I thank you for your kind offer of help.

 

[roccerfeller]

And this is why one should never take all articles seriously...


There is so much unrealistic, quote bending, hypothesis supporting mishandling in that its ridiculous. Not to mention, funny, with respect to a Southern Ontario angle. Heck, they've been saying for years Winnipeg would never see the NHL return...

Oh and, a SECOND Vancouver team?????? Kitchner???????????????? A second Toronto team?????? (the most plausible. But tell me where the serious, legitimate plans are for an arena that will actually get off the ground...never mind sharing the ACC; who owns it? does he REALLY think they'd let a second NHL team in their rink? Unless they owned it? Would they want to own a second team?)

Regina AND Saskatoon potentially with NHL teams?

Puh-leese.

His justifications are also based on Winnipeg getting a "B-" based on Keller's report. First off, there's much more Winnipeg has going for it than just population. Economically, people in Southern Ontario still to this day aren't aware at how well off the Peg is, moreso, they are oblivious to the fact an NHL team isn't a cut&paste job. There are tons of serious lengthy mechanics that are involved, and, population isn't everything.

There is tons to criticize in this report....its just sad.


And some of those teams he mentioned....pretty damn hard to predict what the league will be like in 2025. Who knows. Maybe Canada loses teams again. Maybe there are contractions.

That article is more like a justification for a wet dream he had...his points seem to simply support for the sake of support; while a case for this article could be made over a few beers, I don't think anyone should be taking this seriously.

 

[Fourier]

First of all Professor, before I got here you people didnt have a clue what you were talking about.

Secondly. I was fully engaged in your Fractional 1/3rd Wars as a Remote Viewing Expert & was responsible for leaving more Infracted Dead Rabbits on the field than those destroyed at the Battle of Antietam.

But I thank you for your kind offer of help.

Looking back I see that you did get a taste of the great 1/3 wars from a recent conversation I had with my good friend Ike. Indeed, you managed to bring Pontryagin Duality into the conversation, an unexpected twist I must say.

 

[Killion]

Looking back I see that you did get a taste of the great 1/3 wars from a recent conversation I had with my good friend Ike. Indeed, you managed to bring Pontryagin Duality into the conversation, an unexpected twist I must say.

More than a taste my friend. You may re-call me by my former handle; Pontryagin Maximus Decimus Meridius, Lord General of the Northern Armies. How Ike managed to be left standing & virtually unscathed vexes me... I'm horribly vexed.