Prospect Info: NHL Entry Draft Discussion Thread - Looking Ahead to 2020

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Stephen

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Feb 28, 2002
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Interested to see if they keep trading down in the draft.

The Travis Dermott/Jeremy Bracco/Martins Dzierkals 3 for 1 with Philadelphia trade seemed like an intelligent play at the time, but the quantity we got back for who Philadelphia targeted (Travis Konecny) and the guy we left on the board, Sebastian Aho, it feels like they outwitted themselves into a downgrade. Feels like the team trading up did their homework and the Leafs played the percentages.

The Bokk pick for Sandin and SDA seems like a good bet, on the other hand.
 
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deletethis

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Mar 17, 2015
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Interested to see if they keep trading down in the draft.

The Travis Dermott/Jeremy Bracco/Martins Dzierkals 3 for 1 with Philadelphia trade seemed like an intelligent play at the time, but the quantity we got back for who Philadelphia targeted (Travis Konecny) and the guy we left on the board, Sebastian Aho, it feels like they outwitted themselves into a downgrade. Feels like the team trading up did their homework and the Leafs played the percentages.

The Bokk pick for Sandin and SDA seems like a good bet, on the other hand.

When they traded down with Konecny still on the board, I wasn't a happy camper. He looked not far off Marner in ability to me. Konecny would have fit like a glove on this team. Still, it isn't a total washout, Dermott is a perfectly useful defenseman somewhere in the 3 to 5 slot.
 

acrobaticgoalie

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Jun 18, 2014
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Interested to see if they keep trading down in the draft.

The Travis Dermott/Jeremy Bracco/Martins Dzierkals 3 for 1 with Philadelphia trade seemed like an intelligent play at the time, but the quantity we got back for who Philadelphia targeted (Travis Konecny) and the guy we left on the board, Sebastian Aho, it feels like they outwitted themselves into a downgrade. Feels like the team trading up did their homework and the Leafs played the percentages.

The Bokk pick for Sandin and SDA seems like a good bet, on the other hand.
Konecny is a good player but Dermott is still a 23 year old Dman with excellent tools coming off a shoulder surgery and missing time. He still has potential to be a solid 2nd pairing Dman.

I like the trading down method. If you view a group of say 5-10 players to all be equal in potential and ability, why not add extra prospects? Imagine trading down to a later pick in the 1st round and adding a 2nd/3rd rounder and getting a player like Robertson with the added pick. That's how you keep your pipeline strong.
 

shortfuze

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Apr 23, 2007
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Interested to see if they keep trading down in the draft.

The Travis Dermott/Jeremy Bracco/Martins Dzierkals 3 for 1 with Philadelphia trade seemed like an intelligent play at the time, but the quantity we got back for who Philadelphia targeted (Travis Konecny) and the guy we left on the board, Sebastian Aho, it feels like they outwitted themselves into a downgrade. Feels like the team trading up did their homework and the Leafs played the percentages.

The Bokk pick for Sandin and SDA seems like a good bet, on the other hand.
toronto didnt outwit themselves and they certainly didnt leave aho on the board on purpose. just like any other team at that time you take best player available. konecny and aho have developed and progressed better. 1 day dermott could be better than both those 2, he just needs time.
 
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Stephen

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Also curious to see how the cancellation of the season will affect the way teams approach the draft. If teams will tend more towards younger boom prospects who haven't yet blossomed or just rely on the snapshot to date.
 

Stephen

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toronto didnt outwit themselves and they certainly didnt leave aho on the board on purpose. just like any other team at that time you take best player available. konecny and aho have developed and progressed better. 1 day dermott could be better than both those 2, he just needs time.

Meh, the Leafs thought process at the time was rational. They saw a pool of similar upside prospects and chose to go for more quantity because they were just entering the rebuild and needed the additional bodies, but to date has not panned out, as the sole NHLer of that group has lagged behind what they left on the board.
 
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Fogelhund

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Konecny has turned into a fine hockey player no question about that. He was also a RW primarily, and the Leafs had just drafted Nylander the year before, and Marner in the first round. It's clear why the Leafs felt comfortable going after a fine D, a promising RW and an extra piece.
 
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Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
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Re the trade down, its better to look at it like a longer term strategy for the draft. Sometimes it wont work out, but others it will. Seemed to do fine at the 2018 draft woth Sandin and SDA
 
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Kiwi

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Re the trade down, its better to look at it like a longer term strategy for the draft. Sometimes it wont work out, but others it will. Seemed to do fine at the 2018 draft woth Sandin and SDA

The odds say trading down to gather more picks is better overall value on a lot of occasions

So you just have to accept sometimes you will win and sometimes you will lose but eventually if you continue with the strategy you will come out ahead over a larger sample
 

SeaOfBlue

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Aug 1, 2013
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The odds say trading down to gather more picks is better overall value on a lot of occasions

So you just have to accept sometimes you will win and sometimes you will lose but eventually if you continue with the strategy you will come out ahead over a larger sample

Or just make sure that you draft the right people. Makes the strategy a lot more effective.
 
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LeafsOHLRangers98

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Easier said than done, if it was easy a lot of teams would be way better at it I'd imagine
As long as we don't go with the Lou approach drafting trees that can't skate then we'll be fine with that strategy.

Last years draft is looking fantastic so far.
 
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SeaOfBlue

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Easier said than done, if it was easy a lot of teams would be way better at it I'd imagine

If you have a strong philosophy, good scouts/analytics, and some luck, it mostly comes down to your development team.

Considering the Leafs can spend a ton of money on getting the best scouting, development and analytics resources, we should be among the top drafting teams in the league.
 

storm surge

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Dec 5, 2017
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pick Gogolev from Guelph..heez as good as your mew Russian.. (points....was per Augustine linemate in Peterborough..talent..heeza natural leader and a steal..how can he be ignored again?..
 

SeaOfBlue

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pick Gogolev from Guelph..heez as good as your mew Russian.. (points....was per Augustine linemate in Peterborough..talent..heeza natural leader and a steal..how can he be ignored again?..

He was SDA's teammate long before he was even in the OHL. They practically grew up together.
 

nuck

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Aug 18, 2005
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Interested to see if they keep trading down in the draft.

The Travis Dermott/Jeremy Bracco/Martins Dzierkals 3 for 1 with Philadelphia trade seemed like an intelligent play at the time, but the quantity we got back for who Philadelphia targeted (Travis Konecny) and the guy we left on the board, Sebastian Aho, it feels like they outwitted themselves into a downgrade. Feels like the team trading up did their homework and the Leafs played the percentages.

The Bokk pick for Sandin and SDA seems like a good bet, on the other hand.

I suspect they didn't think it was a true trade down because they had a cohort of very similar talents available. If its just a coin toss and you are looking at BPA rather than positional need it will probably keep happening. For all we know they were otherwise looking at Juulsen or Larsson so they may have still ended up getting a better guy by default. Its a bit like the Oiler fans worrying they traded Barzal for Reinhart as though they wouldn't have taken Svechnikov or Larsson or Erickson Ek.

I still wouldn't have traded down for Dermott in particular.
 

Rants Mulliniks

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Jun 22, 2008
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Konecny has turned into a fine hockey player no question about that. He was also a RW primarily, and the Leafs had just drafted Nylander the year before, and Marner in the first round. It's clear why the Leafs felt comfortable going after a fine D, a promising RW and an extra piece.

Yup. Let's not lose sight that this is the first year Konecny has done anything close to Nylander's first 2 years. Where would he be, 3rd line RW? The only big benefit would be making trading RFA Nylander more palatable but then you'd be doing so with no guarantee Konecny could step up to first or second year Nylander level. We needed D and got that. Those guys also take longer to blossom.
 
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Mess

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Feb 27, 2002
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Interested to see if they keep trading down in the draft.

The Travis Dermott/Jeremy Bracco/Martins Dzierkals 3 for 1 with Philadelphia trade seemed like an intelligent play at the time, but the quantity we got back for who Philadelphia targeted (Travis Konecny) and the guy we left on the board, Sebastian Aho, it feels like they outwitted themselves into a downgrade. Feels like the team trading up did their homework and the Leafs played the percentages.

The Bokk pick for Sandin and SDA seems like a good bet, on the other hand.

Leafs might need to trade back simply to replenish all the draft picks that Leafs GM has dealt away including 2 X 1sts.

Quality for quantity trades even with draft picks in most trades the winner goes to the team that gets the best player.

SDA seems like just the newer version of Bracco/Dzierkals/Timashov .. He would need to become something in order the trade down to have any impact.

Konecny is currently the 8th highest scoring NHL player from that draft class taken #24, Leafs trading down 2 X and out of the 1st round and missing on Aho the #4th highest scoring player drafted @ #35 from this draft class is a double misfire by the Leafs.

OverallTeamPlayerSeasonsGPGATPPIM
#1 Edmonton Oilers
3.png
Connor McDavid (F)
5 351 162 307 469 118
#2 Buffalo Sabres
6.png
Jack Eichel (F)
5 354 137 200 337 136
#4 Toronto Maple Leafs
3.png
Mitchell Marner (F)
4 300 83 208 291 102
#35 Carolina Hurricanes
2.png
Sebastian Aho (F)
4 310 121 142 263 102
#10 Colorado Avalanche
2.png
Mikko Rantanen (F)
5 281 99 151 250 126
#16 New York Islanders
3.png
Mathew Barzal (F)
4 234 59 148 207 126
#17 Winnipeg Jets
6.png
Kyle Connor (F)
4 249 105 96 201 72
#24 Philadelphia Flyers
3.png
Travis Konecny (F)
4 299 83 102 185 163
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 

LeafsOHLRangers98

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Jun 13, 2017
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Leafs might need to trade back simply to replenish all the draft picks that Leafs GM has dealt away including 2 X 1sts.

Quality for quantity trades even with draft picks in most trades the winner goes to the team that gets the best player.

SDA seems like just the newer version of Bracco/Dzierkals/Timashov .. He would need to become something in order the trade down to have any impact.

Konecny is currently the 8th highest scoring NHL player from that draft class taken #24, Leafs trading down 2 X and out of the 1st round and missing on Aho the #4th highest scoring player drafted @ #35 from this draft class is a double misfire by the Leafs.

OverallTeamPlayerSeasonsGPGATPPIM
#1 Edmonton Oilers
3.png
Connor McDavid (F)
5 351 162 307 469 118
#2 Buffalo Sabres
6.png
Jack Eichel (F)
5 354 137 200 337 136
#4 Toronto Maple Leafs
3.png
Mitchell Marner (F)
4 300 83 208 291 102
#35 Carolina Hurricanes
2.png
Sebastian Aho (F)
4 310 121 142 263 102
#10 Colorado Avalanche
2.png
Mikko Rantanen (F)
5 281 99 151 250 126
#16 New York Islanders
3.png
Mathew Barzal (F)
4 234 59 148 207 126
#17 Winnipeg Jets
6.png
Kyle Connor (F)
4 249 105 96 201 72
#24 Philadelphia Flyers
3.png
Travis Konecny (F)
4 299 83 102 185 163
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
We have 10 picks this year... and so far have only traded 1 from future years. We'll need a goalie some day soon and some RD would be nice but for the most part we're set up really nicely with the draft.
 

Mess

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Feb 27, 2002
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We have 10 picks this year... and so far have only traded 1 from future years. We'll need a goalie some day soon and some RD would be nice but for the most part we're set up really nicely with the draft.

Too bad we trade away our 1st, 2nd and 3rd and stock pile 6th and 7th rounders.

6 of those 10 picks you talk of are 6th and 7th rounders which have a historical record of hitting on less than < 5% league wide.

A pick in the 20's is simply not equal to a pick in the 200's.

No 1st last year, No 1st this year, multiple 2nds/ 3rds dealt away.

Leafs have 1 pick (2nd rounder) in the top 120 overall picks of this upcoming draft. A team like Ottawa has 9 picks during that same time 3 X 1st, 4 X 2nds and 2 X 3rds during this strong draft class.
 
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SeaOfBlue

The Passion That Unites Us All
Aug 1, 2013
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Interested to see if they keep trading down in the draft.

The Travis Dermott/Jeremy Bracco/Martins Dzierkals 3 for 1 with Philadelphia trade seemed like an intelligent play at the time, but the quantity we got back for who Philadelphia targeted (Travis Konecny) and the guy we left on the board, Sebastian Aho, it feels like they outwitted themselves into a downgrade. Feels like the team trading up did their homework and the Leafs played the percentages.

The Bokk pick for Sandin and SDA seems like a good bet, on the other hand.

Not sure it necessarily has anything to do with homework. If the Leafs were playing the percentages, they would still need to do their homework on those players... At least as much, if not more, than Philly or Columbus.

There just is a lot more to a draft pick than just saying it was a good pick or a bad pick. When you make a draft pick, you are essentially drafting a relatively unknown, raw resource that you need to develop and grow, and each have essentially different "splits" when it comes to their risk-reward proposition.

Say you were to simplify this split as follows: High end player/Solid NHLer/Total Bust.

Player A may have a split like 10/15/75, Player B may have a split like 15/5/80, and Player C may have a split like 5/30/65. Now assume this is an all-encompassing number and they all have the same sort of impact if they do, in fact, become a high end player or solid NHLer (obviously this is an oversimplification, and accurately determining these splits or an equivalent method is how a team will be a better "drafting" team than another)...

Which guy would you take? It obviously depends on your appetite (once again a key factor in determining your ability in drafting), and based on that, there are stoichastic algorithms which will objectively tell you which player to take as a result. You could say Player B is the best because he has the best chance of being a high end player. You could say Player C because he has the best chance of becoming an NHLer at all. You could say Player A because he has a good mix of both. Any works depending on your appetite and other factors, like your development team's ability. Now let's say I introduced Player D with a split of 5/5/90. You would probably say Player D is a terrible pick because he has the worst overall chance of becoming an NHLer and the worst chance of becoming a high end player too. The algorithm, no matter your appetite, would likely tell you the same thing.

Now let's say it is 10 years down the road and Player D turns out to be a better player than all of A,B and C (which means they are either busts or only solid players). Statistically, there is only a 3.63% chance of that happening according to the above splits (0.05*0.9*0.85*0.95 ~= 0.0363375 or 3.63%, and logically this number does make sense), but still a chance nonetheless. Would you say that you were a poor drafting team by taking A,B or C over D. Could be that you had an inaccurate evaluation of the players, which comes down to scouting and ultimately drafting, but it could also be nothing more than poor development or dumb luck that worked against you.

You can do everything you can to put yourself in the best position possible, and statistically speaking, you are more likely to do well than not... However just ask yourself how often the Stanley Cup goes to the team which is the most well-positioned to win it? Far less often than you probably would hope if you were one of those teams.
 
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Fogelhund

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Sep 15, 2007
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Interested to see if they keep trading down in the draft.

The Travis Dermott/Jeremy Bracco/Martins Dzierkals 3 for 1 with Philadelphia trade seemed like an intelligent play at the time, but the quantity we got back for who Philadelphia targeted (Travis Konecny) and the guy we left on the board, Sebastian Aho, it feels like they outwitted themselves into a downgrade. Feels like the team trading up did their homework and the Leafs played the percentages.

The Bokk pick for Sandin and SDA seems like a good bet, on the other hand.


It's the draft, the progression of players is a bit like lottery picks. You can project, but you have no idea how they turn out.

That's the problem with looking at these things with hindsight 20/20 vision. Leafs picked up Engvall at 188, Johnsson at 202, Connor Brown at 156.... Did the teams that missed out on these guys, not do their homework? Nah... there is a big portion of this, that is down to luck.

Looking back, and saying, could have, would have.... it's pointless really.
 
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Stephen

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Do we try to get a first round draft pick back from the likes of Kapanen, Johnsson or whomever we want to cut some salary from, especially if we really like a player?
 
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Maplebeasts

I See Demons!!!!!
Oct 26, 2014
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Too bad we trade away our 1st, 2nd and 3rd and stock pile 6th and 7th rounders.

6 of those 10 picks you talk of are 6th and 7th rounders which have a historical record of hitting on less than < 5% league wide.

A pick in the 20's is simply not equal to a pick in the 200's.

No 1st last year, No 1st this year, multiple 2nds/ 3rds dealt away.

Leafs have 1 pick (2nd rounder) in the top 120 overall picks of this upcoming draft. A team like Ottawa has 9 picks during that same time 3 X 1st, 4 X 2nds and 2 X 3rds during this strong draft class.
Ottawa is rebuilding. We are not. Of course they are going to have more early round picks
 

Knies iT

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If O'Rourke is available in the 2nd when the Leafs pick, is there any doubt Dubas picks him without hesitation? In pre-season I was confident he'd be gone in the late 1st, now he's fallen a bit and it's looking like he could be a mid-2nd round option.

Captain of the Greyhounds at 17 (revered for his leadership ability), won a silver medal with team Canada at the Hlinka Gretzky Cup, plays a physical shutdown game, and resembles a similar prospect mold to Sandin/Dermott.
 
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