NHL 2020-2021 season start/schedule

Mightygoose

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Nov 5, 2012
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Looks like the players need to sleep on this and wrap their heads around the offer.

Also appears in the eyes of some owners the projections were not realistic when they did this deal in July and not it's coming back to bite them. I've always thouht the flap cap in lieu of a 50/50 split was a big mistake.
 
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canuckfan75

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Jan 14, 2014
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Business is Business - the players need to play by the rules of the league or they can sit at home and make nothing . times are tough for everyone
 
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DaBadGuy7

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Dec 28, 2004
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Yea I think players will cave, but I can see the deferral amount being 10-13% and escrow at 17-23% as a bit of a compromise.
 

mouser

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This whole "carry into the next CBA" seems dodgy at best. Who says that players 6 years down the road will want to pay off what is essentially the debt of players who are mostly not in the league anymore?

No doubt Bettman is working that into his calculations and is using the leverage he has right now to try to fix it.

Given the opposition to escrow amongst the players, I think you overestimate their financial savvy. Psychologically it may suck to see a percentage of your pay check disappear, but functionally there's no difference between that and changing the formula to keep the cap lower.

Thinking that future players are going to be ok with giving a giving escrow back to the league to pay for this is not likely. Everything will be up for negotiation when this CBA expires, so if the league wants its money back it likely needs to exert its leverage now.

A key detail: the players have already agreed to any debt carrying over in the 2020 CBA. They don't need to reaffirm it in the next CBA--it will happen automatically. If there is carryover debt, then to make any changes on it would require an agreement between the PA and NHL in which the NHL would want some concession in return from the PA for debt forgiveness.
 

Golden_Jet

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Sep 21, 2005
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How does 6.5 and 8 % escrow in future years, pay back the escrow debt, when it’s usually higher than that in a good year.
 

Ernie

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Aug 3, 2004
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A key detail: the players have already agreed to any debt carrying over in the 2020 CBA. They don't need to reaffirm it in the next CBA--it will happen automatically. If there is carryover debt, then to make any changes on it would require an agreement between the PA and NHL in which the NHL would want some concession in return from the PA for debt forgiveness.

All that does is add it to the items that need to be negotiated. There's a reason that the NHL wants to make sure it's paid off during the current agreement - it weakens their position to have to be making that demand instead of something else in the new agreement. And who knows if Bettman / Fehr etc are even around anymore in 6 years.
 

robertocarlos

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Sep 19, 2014
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The players will just ask for more money to come to an agreement on the new CBA in 7 years. That will make up for paying back the player's debt from 2021. Maybe ask for 60% of HRR and a shorter RFA period.
 

LeHab

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Aug 31, 2005
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How does 6.5 and 8 % escrow in future years, pay back the escrow debt, when it’s usually higher than that in a good year.

Cap will remain heavily suppressed until there is no escrow debt. Enough to offset teams currently under cap increasing spendings/monetizing free space? Time will tell. For now we already saw a decrease in offers to UFAs vs recent years.
 
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Golden_Jet

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The players will just ask for more money to come to an agreement on the new CBA in 7 years. That will make up for paying back the player's debt from 2021. Maybe ask for 60% of HRR and a shorter RFA period.

why though when the payback is escrow part of the 50:50 split and the rest is a deferral, not even a pro-rated.
 

Golden_Jet

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Cap will remain heavily suppressed until there is no escrow debt. Enough to offset teams currently under cap increasing spendings/monetizing free space? Time will tell. For now we already saw a decrease in offers to UFAs vs recent years.

Okay that makes more sense, thanks. Like you say, time will tell.
 

mouser

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All that does is add it to the items that need to be negotiated. There's a reason that the NHL wants to make sure it's paid off during the current agreement - it weakens their position to have to be making that demand instead of something else in the new agreement. And who knows if Bettman / Fehr etc are even around anymore in 6 years.

Again, it weakens the PA’s position, not the NHL’s.

The NHL doesn’t need to demand payment of the debt—the players (PA) have already agreed they owe the debt. And while we have yet to see the actual language of the 2020 CBA, if it bears similarity to the 2013 CBA the default method of repayment of that debt will probably already be established—unless the PA and NHL negotiate something different in the 2026(?) CBA down the road. In which case it will be the PA seeking changes, with the NHL holding the upper hand.
 

robertocarlos

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why though when the payback is escrow part of the 50:50 split and the rest is a deferral, not even a pro-rated.

Because the players that enter the NHL in a few years will be angry that they have to pay back the money paid to the players in the league now who gave retired. The whole thing is a mess and the NHL should never have capped escrow. The NHL and NHLPA already know the players will be paid more than 50% of HRR this season. And that money comes out of future player's kids mouths.

I know the NHLPA and NHL can tell the future players to take it or leave it but just on general principles the future players should be angry.
 

mouser

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Because the players that enter the NHL in a few years will be angry that they have to pay back the money paid to the players in the league now who gave retired. The whole thing is a mess and the NHL should never have capped escrow. The NHL and NHLPA already know the players will be paid more than 50% of HRR this season. And that money comes out of future player's kids mouths.

I know the NHLPA and NHL can tell the future players to take it or leave it but just on general principles the future players should be angry.

Agreed, but it’s not players entering the NHL in the future that would be hurt the most. It’s the younger players already in the league who will find their 2nd and 3rd contracts depressed by the cap limits and clawed back via higher escrow in future years who suffer the most.

We’re potentially looking at a escrow debt that takes 3-6 years to settle. New future players will be on ELC’s for 3 years before the escrow debt balance could seriously impact them.


I’m very curious if there’s any internal strife among the Players and PA on how far “The Can Gets Kicked Down the Road” to pay everyone this year at the expense of everyone in future years.
 
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Ernie

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Again, it weakens the PA’s position, not the NHL’s.

The NHL doesn’t need to demand payment of the debt—the players (PA) have already agreed they owe the debt. And while we have yet to see the actual language of the 2020 CBA, if it bears similarity to the 2013 CBA the default method of repayment of that debt will probably already be established—unless the PA and NHL negotiate something different in the 2026(?) CBA down the road. In which case it will be the PA seeking changes, with the NHL holding the upper hand.

Strongly disagree. If I'm the players I'm happy to push this "debt" down the road. The league might get the money back but it'll come at a cost.

Everything is up for negotiation in a new CBA, and what will stop the players from agreeing to a new deal is if they feel that they being treated unfairly. And as we've seen with escrow, it doesn't particularly matter whether they are truly being treated unfairly, but just the impression that they are is what matters. So will the players agree to further escrow in the next CBA? Colour me skeptical.

If the league was so confident that they will get their money back in the next CBA, why are they pushing for changes now just 6 months after putting pen to paper?
 

mouser

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Strongly disagree. If I'm the players I'm happy to push this "debt" down the road. The league might get the money back but it'll come at a cost.

Everything is up for negotiation in a new CBA, and what will stop the players from agreeing to a new deal is if they feel that they being treated unfairly. And as we've seen with escrow, it doesn't particularly matter whether they are truly being treated unfairly, but just the impression that they are is what matters. So will the players agree to further escrow in the next CBA? Colour me skeptical.

If the league was so confident that they will get their money back in the next CBA, why are they pushing for changes now just 6 months after putting pen to paper?

What stopped the players from agreeing to new deals in 2005, 2013 (and likely 2020) when they thought they were being "treated unfairly"?

Escrow is a side effect of the 50/50 split and poorly constructed 2005/2013 cap formulas. The 2020 CBA is radically changing the cap formula to in theory reduce escrow over the long term, but doesn't change the 50/50 split.

The players don't need to agree to "further escrow" in the next CBA to settle any outstanding carryover debt. Constraining the salary cap will solve it so players receive less then 50% of HRR in some future years to settle the debt balance. I also wouldn't be the least bit shocked if the 2020 CBA default language says any carryover debt balance at the end of the CBA is immediately deducted from player salaries the following season--that's how any annual escrow shortage has been treated in the 2005 and 2013 CBA's. Edit: confirmed the MOU does indeed state any debt carryover is immediately due in the first season of the next CBA and escrow % will be as high as required to reduce the debt to zero.


This has nothing to do with the league being confident or not they'll eventually get their money back in the future. The league, like any business, would rather not loan money out for years at 0% interest, while incurring interest fees themselves to borrow the money they're loaning.
 
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BoredBrandonPridham

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Aug 9, 2011
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The 2020 CBA is radically changing the cap formula to in theory reduce escrow over the long term

As an aside, does this imply that the new formula will stop the cap from increasing too fast relative to league revenue?

im a little confused about why players hate escrow so much because i assume if the league overperforms the cap then they just get something of a “tax return” at the end of the season. and if it doesn’t over perform well then they just never earned that money to begin with.
 

MNNumbers

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As an aside, does this imply that the new formula will stop the cap from increasing too fast relative to league revenue?

im a little confused about why players hate escrow so much because i assume if the league overperforms the cap then they just get something of a “tax return” at the end of the season. and if it doesn’t over perform well then they just never earned that money to begin with.

Here's a short primer on how the cap structure works, including how it increases from year to year, along with the escrow situation (up to the new 2020 CBA, anyway).

First....cap. It is very important to realize that the initial cap calculation is done COMLETELY NEW EVERY YEAR. In other words, the league creates a kind of 'estimate' of what it's HRR is going to be, and then does a proposal of a cap for the NHLPA. This calculation does NOT, repeat, DOES NOT, use last year's cap in any way.
Following that proposal, the PA has the right to use their escalator clause so that the cap does not stagnate. Traditionally, they have used this. The reason they would use it is so that 'new crop' UFAs can get a larger contract than the last year's FAs. However, this is the PA's choice.

Second, escrow: Completely independent of the cap situation. All monies which are deemed HRR by the CBA are calculated and added together for all the teams at the end of the year. The players are entitled to 50% of those monies. However, certain layer costs, like LTIR and buyouts, which do not count as anyone's salary, DO count toward the 50% rule. The league's accountants watch the incoming monies all through the year, and they adjust the amount taken out for escrow as the year goes on. The goal is that MORE will be put into escrow than is actually needed, because then if there is extra, it can be distributed to the player's according their salary's %age of the total salaries of all paid players. And, you are correct, that last piece is like a 'tax return' in the way it comes to the players. Whatever is not returned to the players is the 'escrow losses'.

The problems with this system are:
-Since there are more player costs than just salaries, the linkage between HRR and the salary cap is very weak, and does not guarantee that escrow losses will be small.

-The weak linkage that exists assumes that teams will spend to the midpoint of the ceiling/floor numbers. Of course, market forces will dictate that most teams will spend nearer to the ceiling, so this introduces excess salary spending, which increases escrow losses.

-If the players choose too high a number for their escalator, then that also increases escrow losses.

Best solutions:
- Link the HRR estimate to the ceiling rather that the midpoint. There really doesn't need to be a midpoint.
- Players cease to use the escalator (this is already happening)

However, the problem with every 'solution' is that it LOOKS LIKE player salaries will decrease or be stagnant. Of course, in real dollars, this does not happen, because the number on the contract is NOT the number that the player will actually be paid (escrow losses). But, there is a 'face-saving' piece to this puzzle which is difficult to manage.

COVID gives opportunity to straighten some of this out, because everyone know that 19-20 and 20-21 will NOT be normal years, so whatever happens there can't be considered a baseline for anything, and that means there is a window to repair some of what is wrong for the 21-22 season and beyond.
 
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Golden_Jet

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Best solutions:
- Link the HRR estimate to the ceiling rather that the midpoint. There really doesn't need to be a midpoint.
- Players cease to use the escalator (this is already happening)


However, the problem with every 'solution' is that it LOOKS LIKE player salaries will decrease or be stagnant. Of course, in real dollars, this does not happen, because the number on the contract is NOT the number that the player will actually be paid (escrow losses). But, there is a 'face-saving' piece to this puzzle which is difficult to manage.

COVID gives opportunity to straighten some of this out, because everyone know that 19-20 and 20-21 will NOT be normal years, so whatever happens there can't be considered a baseline for anything, and that means there is a window to repair some of what is wrong for the 21-22 season and beyond.

If linked to ceiling then would not be 50/50.
But if they linked to ceiling then lowered ceiling cap hit by a certain percent, then would be more accurate
 

MNNumbers

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If linked to ceiling then would not be 50/50.
But if they linked to ceiling then lowered ceiling cap hit by a certain percent, then would be more accurate

To me, that's what 'link' means. You have to get the right percentages in place.

That is exactly what I would do, to be truthful. I would take my best shot at the new year's HRR. Then I would say....
empirically, salaries are usually 95% of player costs (whatever the number is....95% is just a guess), so I can only use 95% of my best guess for HRR. Then, I would say, empirically, GMs spend 90% of available cap space (again, whatever the number is....90% is just a guess here) so I will assume the same for next year, and the cap ceiling will be the prior $$ figure * 100/90 (or whatever the % was).

And, I would make that a hard figure and dispense with escrow.

That way there is no player arguing about escrow losses.

But, that was all before COVID.

Something is going to have to be massaged to make the losses of HRR during 19-20 and 20-21 come out ok for everyone.
 

Golden_Jet

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To me, that's what 'link' means. You have to get the right percentages in place.

That is exactly what I would do, to be truthful. I would take my best shot at the new year's HRR. Then I would say....
empirically, salaries are usually 95% of player costs (whatever the number is....95% is just a guess), so I can only use 95% of my best guess for HRR. Then, I would say, empirically, GMs spend 90% of available cap space (again, whatever the number is....90% is just a guess here) so I will assume the same for next year, and the cap ceiling will be the prior $$ figure * 100/90 (or whatever the % was).

And, I would make that a hard figure and dispense with escrow.

That way there is no player arguing about escrow losses.

But, that was all before COVID.

Something is going to have to be massaged to make the losses of HRR during 19-20 and 20-21 come out ok for everyone.

It really is the best solution, of course there would be initial complaints, cap is lower, but after a couple of years it would be fine.
 

LPHabsFan

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My question has always been if they're going to have two schedules. One for the first 3 months of the season where the border is closed and things are bad, and then leave the second 3 months open in hopes that by then things will be better re: numbers, travel, vaccine, etc so that they can go back to a more normal schedule rather than just intradivision.
 

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