Next 3 years- Wheeler vs Laine

[cg98]

The whole PP has sucked during Laines slump. When the PP isn't scoring, Wheeler isn't getting the points either. Have you ever seen Jets PP and how opponents play against it? There's no other player in the league who is covered like Laine in PP. That opens more room for the remaining 4 to create chances. But due to Wheelers shot, opponents allow him room to shoot. He can hardly ever convert them to goals.

Audacity to insinuate? I didn't insinuate, I said it straight. Same thing has been said by The Athletic Jets beat writer, with analysis. He suggests it's Laine who drives the bus on PP and I agree.

It's easy to insinuate what the analysis proves. Even if it annoyed the most devoted fans of a player. It's still worth saying because it's the truth. It sucks to be a messenger of that truth because you hardly make friends by saying someones favorite is overrated. But I have more than just opinion to back it up. And someone needs to keep it real in this place of worship.

If you say to me Laine sucks 5 on 5 right now, I won't shoot the messenger. I agree with you on that and think he isn't ready to drive a line alone. I don't expect him to, not yet. But I know, based on his career so far, that he can excel and be top player in the league when ever he is playing with someone compatible. Time with Schef proved it, time with Stastny exclamated that point. He doesn't have to be able to drive a line alone, and he can still be the MVP.

Jets choose not to let the MVP out, when they pair him with the only guy who kills Laines offense. It's a choice they make knowing full well that he isn't going to produce much.


Here's another thing...if Wheeler is such a line driver, why does he have to exclusively play with the best line driver in the Jets? And why at the same time do we have to watch a driverless 2nd line? Wouldn't it make sense to have a driver on both?

I think the reason is for many, that it would expose that Wheeler isn't the line driver everyone thinks he is. A lot of fans arguing against the change are thinking it. What if Wheeler goes to 2nd line and it's even worse? What if Laines (and Scheifeles) 5 on 5 production explodes in the 1st as expected from previous experience?

Some are scared to see it, because they have so much invested in the belief that Wheeler is the best winger in Jets. He isn't, and I'm championing for that change because I have no fear about how that will turn out for Laine and Jets. They will have a monster 1st line and the 2nd line would be about the same as it is now. I could see it getting even better due to Little-Wheeler chemistry and style of play.

All I'm saying is, if someone is convinced that Wheeler is the most deserving 1st line winger, or you want to say Wheeler now and in 3 years, then you shouldn't have any problem seeing what happens when Laine plays with Chef and Wheeler with Little. They shouldn't be concerned. They should welcome the chance for Wheeler to show me wrong. If they are even a bit concerned about what it would prove , then they truly don't believe that Wheeler is the #1 winger in Jets.

The power play has been garbage this entire month, in December they were still producing even when Laine was slumping. Laine can't even generate any offense on the power play and you're here saying that he drives the bus on the power play thats funny.

Trying to scapegoat Little as the one who kills Laine's offense is ridiculous and stupid. Little has produced more than Laine during his slump. It's not Little's fault for Laine's incapability for playing at a high level consistently. If Laine was truly this team's MVP (which is a hilarious statement at this point in time) he would be able to produce more and play at a higher pace no matter whose centering his line. Arguing that he'd be better with Scheifele doesn't make a case when arguing that he's this teams MVP. His play currently is the exact opposite of an MVP, and he's not deserving of a top line spot next to Scheifele when a) He cant generate any sort of offense at 5v5 OR PP and b) when his teammates in Connor, Ehlers, and Wheeler are outperforming him.

And don't give me this crap about Wheeler not being a line driver when he's proven ever since the Jets relocation here that he's capable of doing it. If you bothered watching the Jets when they had that terrible Atlanta core you would've seen and known that Wheeler was the only star player we had on forwards. He plays with Scheifele because he deserves it, and not only because he's one of the NHLs elite wingers and playmakers, he makes Scheifele better. If it ain't broke don't fix it. In no right mind would I swap Wheeler with Laine just because Laine's slumping. If you really think that Wheeler isn't the best winger on this team right now you're delusional (which at this point it's all but confirmed that you are). No one is denying that Laine could be better than Wheeler in 3 years, in fact we all hope Laine is better in 3 years, but right now as it stands he's not better than Wheeler.

 

[Psych0dad]

The power play has been garbage this entire month, in December they were still producing even when Laine was slumping. Laine can't even generate any offense on the power play and you're here saying that he drives the bus on the power play thats funny.

Trying to scapegoat Little as the one who kills Laine's offense is ridiculous and stupid. Little has produced more than Laine during his slump. It's not Little's fault for Laine's incapability for playing at a high level consistently. If Laine was truly this team's MVP (which is a hilarious statement at this point in time) he would be able to produce more and play at a higher pace no matter whose centering his line. Arguing that he'd be better with Scheifele doesn't make a case when arguing that he's this teams MVP. His play currently is the exact opposite of an MVP, and he's not deserving of a top line spot next to Scheifele when a) He cant generate any sort of offense at 5v5 OR PP and b) when his teammates in Connor, Ehlers, and Wheeler are outperforming him.

And don't give me this crap about Wheeler not being a line driver when he's proven ever since the Jets relocation here that he's capable of doing it. If you bothered watching the Jets when they had that terrible Atlanta core you would've seen and known that Wheeler was the only star player we had on forwards. He plays with Scheifele because he deserves it, and not only because he's one of the NHLs elite wingers and playmakers, he makes Scheifele better. If it ain't broke don't fix it. In no right mind would I swap Wheeler with Laine just because Laine's slumping. If you really think that Wheeler isn't the best winger on this team right now you're delusional (which at this point it's all but confirmed that you are). No one is denying that Laine could be better than Wheeler in 3 years, in fact we all hope Laine is better in 3 years, but right now as it stands he's not better than Wheeler.

I'm not reading any evidence or constructive arguments, just a loooot of unsubstantiated opinions.

Just one pick from that drivel....Wheeler deserves first line duty because he makes Scheifele better. Better than what? Better than Laine?!? Ha.

Have you done any homework on that before speaking? Like all of this drivel above, it's just opinion and obviously WRONG opinion because you haven't bothered with facts.

Let me know when you have something of substance to say. I understand your opinion, but I don't care for subjective reviews. If you want to argue your point to me, you need to use objective facts. At least if you are trying to convince me that you are right. If you can prove your point with stats, go right ahead. But you can't because I KNOW the stats.

Laine with Scheifele is about 51% more productive than the current 1st line. Just because Wheeler played in the thrashers, earns him nothing in 2019. He needs to be the best guy for that spot, and he CLEARLY is not.

 

[cg98]

I'm not reading any evidence or constructive arguments, just a loooot of unsubstantiated opinions.

Just one pick from that drivel....Wheeler deserves first line duty because he makes Scheifele better. Better than what? Better than Laine?!? Ha.

Have you done any homework on that before speaking? Like all of this drivel above, it's just opinion and obviously WRONG opinion because you haven't bothered with facts.

Let me know when you have something of substance to say. I understand your opinion, but I don't care for subjective reviews. If you want to argue your point to me, you need to use objective facts. At least if you are trying to convince me that you are right. If you can prove your point with stats, go right ahead. But you can't because I KNOW the stats.

Laine with Scheifele is about 51% more productive than the current 1st line. Just because Wheeler played in the thrashers, earns him nothing in 2019. He needs to be the best guy for that spot, and he CLEARLY is not.

"I'm not reading any evidence or constructive arguments, just a loooot of unsubstantiated opinions."

"Have you done any homework on that before speaking? Like all of this drivel above, it's just opinion and obviously WRONG opinion because you haven't bothered with facts."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Thats hilarious coming from you of all people

In all seriousness, there's been facts and numbers presented to you but you're so close minded, incapable, and grossly inept to accept them as facts and you just brush it off and keep blabbing on about how Laine's better when he's not. Facts don't care about your feelings. And the fact is that Wheeler is the best guy for that spot. I don't see how he's not when he's outplayed and outproduced Laine. Wheeler was a 60-70 point guy who drove the Jets offense with a mediocre roster and now he's a ppg player. I don't care what Laine did with Scheifele in the low amount of games he played with him in his rookie season, I care about now and Connor, Ehlers and Wheeler have all outplayed him for that spot next to Scheifele, and again I (and pretty much any other person who can comprehend logic on this board) repeat, Laine has done jack **** to deserve a spot next to Scheifele on the top line ahead of those guys. That's just the fact but don't get too excited over it like you always do.

 

[Psych0dad]

I don't care what Laine did with Scheifele in the low amount of games he played with him in his rookie season, I care about now and Connor, Ehlers and Wheeler have all outplayed him for that spot next to Scheifele,

Prove your point. As I said, I do not care about your opinion. I care about facts.

Present some facts, show me how they have been better than Laine in that spot. With evidence. You can't.

As you said "I don't care what Laine did with Scheifele". That's where this pigeon chess ends. If you don't care for the truth, I have absolutely no time for you. Useless waste of time.

 

[Uncle Bill]

Facts. Which part do you dispute? Just the obvious conclusion?

You’re trolling us with this line of thought aren’t you? It’s master-quality trolling to be sure.

Your facts? No, your opinion. Bizarre opinion at that.

Your conclusion? It just seems so far out in left field as to be laughable. I agree little isn’t the best centre for laine but the notion the jets are intentionally sabotaging laine’s career has to be the most ludicrous thing I’ve heard.

 

[cg98]

Prove your point. As I said, I do not care about your opinion. I care about facts.

Present some facts, show me how they have been better than Laine in that spot. With evidence. You can't.

As you said "I don't care what Laine did with Scheifele". That's where this pigeon chess ends. If you don't care for the truth, I have absolutely no time for you. Useless waste of time.

I already proved my point in the other thread about Laine vs Pastrnak and someone else provided the numbers because you're a liar. Laine's production and play is indicative that he's not better than Wheeler and that he doesn't deserve a spot on the top line. There is no pigeon chess, it really doesn't matter what Laine did two years ago when he's incapable of playing at such a pace right now. Is it really that hard for you to comprehend any sort of logic?

Well you are the guy that also said that Laine is more "valuable than Bergeron when utilized correctly" so at this point I'd say it is. Not surprising. First word in that last sentence describes anything you comment in HFJets perfectly.

 

[Psych0dad]

You’re trolling us with this line of thought aren’t you? It’s master-quality trolling to be sure.

Your facts? No, your opinion. Bizarre opinion at that.

Your conclusion? It just seems so far out in left field as to be laughable. I agree little isn’t the best centre for laine but the notion the jets are intentionally sabotaging laine’s career has to be the most ludicrous thing I’ve heard.

No facts are facts, but people can draw their own conclusion on what causes the utilization. I have arrived at mine through deductive reasoning, people are welcome to read tea leaves if they so prefer and conclude that Laine doesn't play first line because he only exists in the 7th dimension, or whatever.

It might seem out of the left field but heres facts:

Laine and Scheifele together are far, far more productive than any other combination of the Jets.

Laine still doesn't get to play with Scheifele.

What are the reasons for that? Either incompetence of coach, or a strategy to thwart the production of the player for financial reasons.

Maurice is a smart man. Not a great coach, but a smart person. He has all the data available that we have. He knows without a shadow of doubt that Laine-Little makes both players worse and when it comes to Laine, it pretty much halves his production 5 on 5.

Is it plausible, that an intelligent person would not be able to make the logical decision? Not really. He has to know what he has in Laine with Little and Laine outside Little. So the reason for insisting on that pairing, and keeping the 1st line as the unproductive mess they are, are likely elsewhere.

So where could they be? Players do not decide lines. If coach doesn't either, then who is left? Management. Why would management do this? Well, if he had a calder and 3 rockets going into extension talks, he would be a $15 million a year player for 8 years. In current situation, one hand tied behind his back, he might get somewhere around $10 million a year for 8 years. Because that's what his stats would suggest. So yeah, there's a big financial motive, 40 million dollars over the contract period.

There really aren't other options that make sense. Numbers scream they should play together, but they don't. So one has to wonder which option it is, coach or management. I just conclude, it's most likely management at that point.

 

[Psych0dad]

I already proved my point in the other thread about Laine vs Pastrnak and someone else provided the numbers because you're a liar.

Now that is bullshit. You did no such thing.

You actually tried to argue a different point and I pointed out how you were confused and lost. You have remained confused and lost. Maybe find someone else to fling poo at. Someone who will just respond in kind and you can live happily ever after.

"Laine did two years ago when he's incapable of playing at such a pace right now."

You really do think that he has regressed.

I'm not allowed to say what I think of your ability to logic. Just don't talk to me. Find a more suitable partner, closer to your level.

 

[cg98]

Now that is bull****. You did no such thing.

You actually tried to argue a different point and I pointed out how you were confused and lost. You have remained confused and lost. Maybe find someone else to fling poo at. Someone who will just respond in kind and you can live happily ever after.

"Laine did two years ago when he's incapable of playing at such a pace right now."

You really do think that he has regressed.

I'm not allowed to say what I think of your ability to logic. Just don't talk to me. Find a more suitable partner, closer to your level.

I did tho, it's not my fault your incapable of comprehending or not reading what I said. You beat yourself in that one but congrats on trying. You played yourself.

If you really think that Laine's play now is the same or better than his rookie season you're delusional (that's already well established at this point). If you bothered watching the games rather than just saying what your heart tells you to you'd know this.

You think your on some level pedestal lol if anyone went down to your level of logic (or your level in general) theyd be at the bottom. No one wants that.

 

[Psych0dad]

If you really think that Laine's play now is the same or better than his rookie season you're *******g delusional (that's already well established at this point). If you bothered watching the games rather than just saying what your heart tells you to you'd know this.

Even the f***ing delusional Paul Maurice will tell you Laine is a far better player today than he was at 18.

But of course in your world hockey players regress at 18-20 and start reaching their peaks at 32. And you have the gall to call me names. Stunning Dunning-Kruger effect at play here.

 

[cg98]

Even the ****ing delusional Paul Maurice will tell you Laine is a far better player today than he was at 18.

But of course in your world hockey players regress at 18-20 and start reaching their peaks at 32. And you have the gall to call me names. Stunning Dunning-Kruger effect at play here.

LOL WHAT. In what way is Laine better than he was at 18? He's even worse than last year!! He's on pace for 58 points ffs!! Have you bothered to watch how he plays? Have you not looked at his production for the past month and a half? If you think younger players can't slump or regress and that players can't reach their peak when they're older I really don't know what else to tell you other than what I'm not allowed to on these boards. I guess that you really don't know the sport of hockey what so ever. What a joke.

 

[Psych0dad]

LOL WHAT. In what way is Laine better than he was at 18? He's even worse than last year!! He's on pace for 58 points ffs!! Have you bothered to watch how he plays? Have you not looked at his production for the past month and a half? If you think younger players can't slump or regress and that players can't reach their peak when they're older I really don't know what else to tell you other than what I'm not allowed to on these boards. I guess that you really don't know the sport of hockey what so ever. What a joke.

Maurice has said it repeatedly when asked. I think last time was a couple of days ago in Jim Rome's interview.

But you enjoy hockey as you see it. I can't tell people to get better at evaluating what they see or ask them to try to analyze circumstances or data. Some do not have that in them, and they still can enjoy hockey at the basic level. No hard feelings.

 

[cg98]

Maurice has said it repeatedly when asked. I think last time was a couple of days ago in Jim Rome's interview.

But you enjoy hockey as you see it. I can't tell people to get better at evaluating what they see or ask them to try to analyze circumstances or data. Some do not have that in them, and they still can enjoy hockey at the basic level. No hard feelings.

Just because someone says something doesn't mean it's true. There's quite a bit of evidence to back up that Laine's regressed/slumped. Being on pace for 58 points after posting back to back 70+ point seasons is in no way shape or form being better. That's abysmal.

It's not that hard to see that younger players can regress and that other players reach their peak when they're older. That's not just a case in hockey, rather across all sports. Its not too hard to comprehend that.

 

[Psych0dad]

Just because someone says something doesn't mean it's true. There's quite a bit of evidence to back up that Laine's regressed/slumped. Being on pace for 58 points after posting back to back 70+ point seasons is in no way shape or form being better. That's abysmal.

It's not that hard to see that younger players can regress and that other players reach their peak when they're older. That's not just a case in hockey, rather across all sports. Its not too hard to comprehend that.

Well ok, I will do this one more time and I'll try to help you understand.

If you took last years pace, Laine with Little up to this date last season, you would probably get a worse pace than what he is in now. Then came Stastny, and the season totals got higher. Laine went on a tear with a proper fitting center.

So, if Laine now plays a full season with Little (god I hope not), then he will certainly have a much lower total. In the previous 2 seasons, there have been times when he has played with better suiting centers and he has been the league MVP (not just Jets as you laughed about above) during those stretches.

Obviously, logically, if there is no such stretch of his production getting maxed out this season, his totals will be lower than they were in previous seasons. Causality.

Just to illustrate the point a bit.

Your theory seems to be: If you first drive laps in a racecar on the race track and you get, let's say a lap time of 2:00 minutes, and then you drive the same length track on a potato field and your lap time is 6:45 minutes, then the race car must have regressed on the way from one track to another. And that now the race car can only do 6:45 laps even if it was put back on the racetrack. You ignore the change in conditions completely. That's utter nonsense and beyond ridiculous. It's so far removed from logic, I can't see your point from my tower.

The race car is best used on the actual track, not on the potato field. You see no difference in those conditions, and you somehow conclude that "this is what that car can now do". There's no words to describe how frustratingly thoughtless that is.

 

[cg98]

Well ok, I will do this one more time and I'll try to help you understand.

If you took last years pace, Laine with Little up to this date last season, you would probably get a worse pace than what he is in now. Then came Stastny, and the season totals got higher. Laine went on a tear with a proper fitting center.

So, if Laine now plays a full season with Little (god I hope not), then he will certainly have a much lower total. In the previous 2 seasons, there have been times when he has played with better suiting centers and he has been the league MVP (not just Jets as you laughed about above) during those stretches.

Obviously, logically, if there is no such stretch of his production getting maxed out this season, his totals will be lower than they were in previous seasons. Causality.

Just to illustrate the point a bit.

Your theory seems to be: If you first drive laps in a racecar on the race track and you get, let's say a lap time of 2:00 minutes, and then you drive the same length track on a potato field and your lap time is 6:45 minutes, then the race car must have regressed on the way from one track to another. And that now the race car can only do 6:45 laps even if it was put back on the racetrack. You ignore the change in conditions completely. That's utter nonsense and beyond ridiculous. It's so far removed from logic, I can't see your point from my tower.

The race car is best used on the actual track, not on the potato field. You see no difference in those conditions, and you somehow conclude that "this is what that car can now do". There's no words to describe how frustratingly thoughtless that is.

And I will repeat this one more time. There are three wingers outplaying and out producing him. His current play is not deserving of a spot on the top line. Your race car analogy doesn't fit this narrative because that's not how racing or hockey works.

 

[EhlersChin]

And I will repeat this one more time. There are three wingers outplaying and out producing him. His current play is not deserving of a spot on the top line. Your race car analogy doesn't fit this narrative because that's not how racing or hockey works.

Hes been embarrassing himself for a while dont take him to seriously. His last public cry to @jepjepjoo for "data" was unanswered and his attitude lately has reflected his disappointment.

 

[Saitama]

Yeah I am not trying to say Wheeler=Lucic, or that he isn't any good. Wheeler is not nearly as regressed as Lucic is and has a better end of career ahead of him for sure. I'm just making a point that the comparison isn't favorable to Wheeler today and in 3 years it will be a laughable question.

Not nearly as regressed.....

Seriously man, everything you post on this subject is absolutely laughable. Do you ever get tired of making yourself look foolish? Sorry, I guess I didn't really have to ask that, we all know the answer.

 

[Peggy]

And I will repeat this one more time. There are three wingers outplaying and out producing him. His current play is not deserving of a spot on the top line. Your race car analogy doesn't fit this narrative because that's not how racing or hockey works.

His shot is tho lol

 

[I am not exposed]

Wheeler easily.

 

[grieves]

What is going on in this poll . Is this some kind of elaborate joke?

Laine easily.

Laine put in the same place as Wheeler on the team will boost that's lines offensive numbers by 51%, and decrease the defensive numbers 6% (this sample was when Laine was 18yo because obviously that was the last time he played with Scheifele for any meaningful amount). This is pure GF and GA so extremely susceptible to the luck factor, but I mean c'mon now.

Wheeler is a great player, but he is up there in the age department also, whereas Laine's forecast foresees high improvement for the next 3-4 years.

 

[Karl Eriksson]

Ill take the one who hasn’t reached the regression stage of their career....Wheeler

 

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

Maurice has said it repeatedly when asked. I think last time was a couple of days ago in Jim Rome's interview.

But you enjoy hockey as you see it. I can't tell people to get better at evaluating what they see or ask them to try to analyze circumstances or data. Some do not have that in them, and they still can enjoy hockey at the basic level. No hard feelings.

So you'll take Maurice's word that Laine is getting better yet you'll also call him delusional and a terrible coach. How about all of your 'stats say this' arguments, the stats say that Laine has gotten worse. Oh but they don't count now cause hurr durr Little.

If Laine was half the player you make him out to be, playing with Little might make his numbers slightly worse but he would still produce at an elite level, he doesn't do that.

I can't believe how much blame Laine fans put on Little, Little has been outproducing Laine 5v5 for the last while. Laine has been bad, there is no argument to the contrary. He has the potential to do a lot better and I don't believe playing with little is optimal, but that shouldn't send his numbers straight into the toilet and make him look like a shell of the player he looked like in his rookie season. Unless you think Scheifele is the best player in the league by far or something.

 

[JetsHomer]

What is going on in this poll . Is this some kind of elaborate joke?

Laine easily.

Laine put in the same place as Wheeler on the team will boost that's lines offensive numbers by 51%, and decrease the defensive numbers 6% (this sample was when Laine was 18yo because obviously that was the last time he played with Scheifele for any meaningful amount). This is pure GF and GA so extremely susceptible to the luck factor, but I mean c'mon now.

Wheeler is a great player, but he is up there in the age department also, whereas Laine's forecast foresees high improvement for the next 3-4 years.

My favourite part of the delusional Finnish fans using that tiny sample size 2 years ago as proof of anything is that they always completly ignore that Laine has spent more time with Scheifele the past 2 years on the PP than he did overal in those games and his success on the PP was less than the tiny sample size that Finnish homers use to justify ridiculous predictions.

Funny how playing Laine with Scheifele is going to turn Laine into some 80+ goal 150+ point beast when they play together on the PP and still couldn't match the level of point production they had that month two years ago. But Finnish fans will still insist that that's the 'true' Laine and not just another hot streak

 

[JetsHomer]

If Laine was put on the first line and the lines offensive production 'would have increased 51%' than that means people are estimating that in 48 games Connor would have scored 60 points (up from 38) Scheifele would be at 89 points (up from 59) and Laine with 151% of Wheeler's 61 point production would have 91 points (up from 34!)

Very realistic predictions those

 

[ijuka]

I assume Laine will improve and Wheeler decline.

If Wheeler was on the 2nd line and Laine first, who knows how they'd be doing? Wheeler's been running off PP for a long time already.