GDT: New York Rangers 2018-2019 Training Camp Thread

[Inferno]

He scored the GWG the other day.

Yeah on a okay that was giftwrapped for him in a game he didn't play particularly well in.

 

[eco's bones]

I mean he’s done it practically his whole career...

He’s one of the few LHD who have been able to handle the right side. I’d keep him on the left side 5v5 and throw him out there on the right side on the PK.

Keeping in mind that Smith also takes a lot of penalties and that if McQuaid is the 3RD he takes a lot of penalties too and since I'm on that subject Skjei and Shattenkirk in the penalty box isn't exactly a rare sight either. But forgetting all that which of our 20 minute 1st and 2nd RD gets to match up with Ovechkin when we're playing Washington or is Smith going to switch over for that too? Or are we going to forget about who is defending who altogether?---and let the chips fall where they may.

And it's not like with either DeAngelo or Pionk we're unleashing some kind of secret weapon on the rest of the league. As far as offensive production a 30 point season for either would be a very good year. A 30 point defenseman is not exactly a rarity but that kind of production is pretty good for a young D but it also should come with some ability to play in defensive situations.

 

[Vitto79]

Exactly. Even if McQuaid is healthy and is moved, NYR essentially just moved up in the draft!!

I’m also all for the kids but also don’t want to rush them so Skjei , Shattenkirk , Staal, McQuaid, Smith then DeAngelo and Pionk can fight for time. Claesson likely sits most nights

They will try and deal Smith and Staal if they can find a taker McQuaid gone for sure

Then call up Hajek and Lindberg

I see O Gara and Gilmour as fillers

 

[Off Sides]

I'd go with let the chips fall where they may, put ADA or Pionk out there against whoever, it's not like putting McQuaid or Shattenkirk out there against the best the other team has is going to yield all that much better results in a defensive situation.

It's going to be a bumpy season for the whole team but as long as the youth is looking better in whatever roles they fall into as the season goes on that is development.

I actually think they should eventually start practicing and playing ADA on the PK. If he can add that to his game it helps both him and the Rangers. Probably not right away, he has enough going on for now but eventually no matter what they do in these defensive or PK situations they are not likely to be very good at it, so they may as well try some different players there.

 

[Blue Blooded]

I'd go with let the chips fall where they may, put ADA or Pionk out there against whoever, it's not like putting McQuaid or Shattenkirk out there against the best the other team has is going to yield all that much better results in a defensive situation.

It's going to be a bumpy season for the whole team but as long as the youth is looking better in whatever roles they fall into as the season goes on that is development.

I actually think they should eventually start practicing and playing ADA on the PK. If he can add that to his game it helps both him and the Rangers. Probably not right away, he has enough going on for now but eventually no matter what they do in these defensive or PK situations they are not likely to be very good at it, so they may as well try some different players there.

He got the second most 4v5 TOI of the Rangers' defencemen against the Flyers and did very well according to the metrics. In his 3:04 the Rangers only conceded 4 shot attempts, of which 2 were scoring chances and 0 were high-danger scoring chances. Compare to Skjei's 4:15; 11 shot attempts, 7 scoring chances, 4 high-danger scoring chances. They each had one goal scored on them.

It's just one game and ultimately it means very little, but he did very well.

 

[offdacrossbar]

the coaching staff seems to be looking for ADA to play his way into a top 6 spot. it appears its his to lose. shelter his defensive starts somewhat but feed him plenty of offensive chances and pp time.

quinn likes his skill and has shown confidence in him so far, i would say hes in a good spot to have a regular role on this team. i do not agree that hes weak defensively, i would say hes a better offensive player than defensive but his overall engagement defensively has always been good. hes willing and he will play with an edge.

metrics wise, i think his numbers will show as possession player who generate offense and is willing to shoot it plenty. he does get himself into good spots to take shots and seems to know where to go both with the pill and without.

i would pair him with brady and let that be our 2nd pair.

 

[Leetch3]

We need to develop players, protect assets and dress as good as team as possible within a salary cap. Pretty sure GMJG knows this and will act accordingly... if not, Houston...

dressing the best team possible really isn't that big of a factor during a rebuild. if anderson is one of the 12 best forwards but its determined that for his development he is better off playing top minutes in hartford over 4th line in ny then he goes down because his development and the future is what matters. the fact that it would make the rangers better if he was on the 4th line over mcleod shouldn't matter

and that isn't saying we should try to put together a competitive team...thats just not the priority this year

 

[Fitzy]

Pionk is waiver exempt- so at the end of the day if they like what ADA offers more right now he can be sent down to play 25 a night in Hartford without major problems.

Skjei-Shattenkirk
Smith-DeAngelo
Staal-McQuaid
Claesson

 

[nyr2k2]

I understand Pionk can go down and ADA can't, but it seems like a questionable way to develop Pionk if they do send him to Hartford. 25 minutes a night in Hartford is fine, and Pionk certainly has some things he could work on, but he was playing 23+ per night with regularity in the NHL last year, and then also got to play in the WC for 10 games. It just seems like a step back that he doesn't need to be taking. Particularly given this is a transitional year for the team, where we're supposed to give development opportunities to the younger players. I'd rather Pionk work on his deficiencies in the NHL than the AHL.

 

[Leetch3]

we does it have to be pionk or ada...if they both earn spots they should both be on the team

 

[GAGLine]

the coaching staff seems to be looking for ADA to play his way into a top 6 spot. it appears its his to lose. shelter his defensive starts somewhat but feed him plenty of offensive chances and pp time.

quinn likes his skill and has shown confidence in him so far, i would say hes in a good spot to have a regular role on this team. i do not agree that hes weak defensively, i would say hes a better offensive player than defensive but his overall engagement defensively has always been good. hes willing and he will play with an edge.

metrics wise, i think his numbers will show as possession player who generate offense and is willing to shoot it plenty. he does get himself into good spots to take shots and seems to know where to go both with the pill and without.

i would pair him with brady and let that be our 2nd pair.

I think you're right that they are giving him every opportunity to play his way onto the team, but he needs to produce more offensively to justify a spot in the lineup.

 

[nyr2k2]

we does it have to be pionk or ada...if they both earn spots they should both be on the team

I agree. I think it's just with the assumption that McQuaid will play regularly, there is only one spot on the right with Shattenkirk here. So then naturally it comes down to those two for one spot. I'm not good at math so I'm not sure how many games they could each get if you rotated the three over two spots, but if it was like 50 games each I'd totally be okay with that. It's not ideal, but I think it's more ideal than sending a player who I personally believe should be in the NHL (Pionk) to the AHL, just due to his waiver status.

 

[kovazub94]

I understand Pionk can go down and ADA can't, but it seems like a questionable way to develop Pionk if they do send him to Hartford. 25 minutes a night in Hartford is fine, and Pionk certainly has some things he could work on, but he was playing 23+ per night with regularity in the NHL last year, and then also got to play in the WC for 10 games. It just seems like a step back that he doesn't need to be taking. Particularly given this is a transitional year for the team, where we're supposed to give development opportunities to the younger players. I'd rather Pionk work on his deficiencies in the NHL than the AHL.

Don't know why this seems to be forgotten.

And no it doesn't mean that he'll have a spot over ADA but rather that Pionk, ADA and McQuaid are likely to be rotating in 2 RD spots depending on individual performances, opponents etc.

This is on top of the fact that the organization already has excess of bodies on defense to play in Hartford.

 

[nyr2k2]

Don't know why this seems to be forgotten.

And no it doesn't mean that he'll have a spot over ADA but rather that Pionk, ADA and McQuaid are likely to be rotating in 2 RD spots depending on individual performances, opponents etc.

This is on top of the fact that the organization already has excess of bodies on defense to play in Hartford.

These are all good points. Particularly the last--it's totally possible with the glut of defenseman, we wouldn't only be having Pionk play at a lower level than he should, but could potentially force another young player out of the AHL lineup or even to Maine.

Vying for spots down in Hartford, you'd have Bigras, Crawley, Day, Gilmour, Hajek, Lindgren, O'Gara and Pedrie. They've also got these guys Pratt and Savage on PTOs. You could also have Claesson down there, assuming Skjei, Shattenkirk, Smith, Pionk, Staal, DeAngelo and McQuaid are your seven.

Bigras
Claesson
Crawley
Day
Gilmour
Hajek
Lindren
O'Gara
Pedrie

That's assuming you cut loose the PTO guys. 9 defensemen. Okay, send Day to Maine. Now it's eight. Who else? No one cares about Pedrie but he is not a bad AHL player and belongs there. It's tight.

EDIT: The point here was, if you send down Pionk and keep Claesson or O'Gara as your spare, it's worse because it's another young guy in Hartford who needs time instead of a vet you can scratch from time to time.

 

[Ola]

I've been swamped with work and missed a lot of the summer tournaments, Traverse and pre-season games so far.

From afar the transformation of Brendan Smith stands out for me. Playing on the left side will do wonders for him. Much better shape. If we erase last seasons from the history books and Smith plays well here for two years -- he could definitely be an OK rental for a contender at the deadline. Can he erase that failure stamp with a strong year? I believe so. Two years left after this year. Teams are always looking for defenders, but terms scare a lot of teams off. Maybe next season is better but the logjam we have of vets on the blueline is pretty awful, Skjei is for the future but Staal and Smith taking up the other 2 LD positions for the coming 3 seasons is not good.

15-team trade list. If Smith plays like an OK top 4 D for us, retain 2mil per for 2 more years and he should fetch a good return at the deadline. A late 1st from like EDM? Maybe they are on his list. Someone will be looking for a D.

 

[Ola]

Its not the end of the world if Pionk goes down to HFD at the start of the year. I love Pionk but I would be a bit relieved if we didn't lose ADA on waivers which we would do if he was the one that ended up on the outside.

We need a physical RD presence for the PK. If ADA shows that he is ready to handle an offensive role on the right side, there is no room for Pionk. Someone got to go. I know the mob will bring out the pitch forks -- and I am a little gun shy after the last lynching -- but Gorton should look around the league and explore the market for Shatty if ADA keeps this up and Pionk keeps playing well.

 

[Off Sides]

I understand Pionk can go down and ADA can't, but it seems like a questionable way to develop Pionk if they do send him to Hartford. 25 minutes a night in Hartford is fine, and Pionk certainly has some things he could work on, but he was playing 23+ per night with regularity in the NHL last year, and then also got to play in the WC for 10 games. It just seems like a step back that he doesn't need to be taking. Particularly given this is a transitional year for the team, where we're supposed to give development opportunities to the younger players. I'd rather Pionk work on his deficiencies in the NHL than the AHL.

I agree, just because Pionk is waiver exempt does not mean he should be demoted, which is why I questioned the McQuaid acquisition in the first place, it made it a situation where most of NHL development time was going to either ADA or Poink, but likely not both.

Without McQuaid it sure seems like both ADA and Poink would be working on their deficiencies in the NHL.

I get that the Rangers want to be tougher, and McQuaid can bring that at least individually, I get they also have undersized RD, but there is a trade off in NHL developmental time that comes along with that trade.

It kind of looks like Boston traded McQuaid to open up NHL ice time for some developing players, which sets up some strange optics.

 

[NYR Viper]

I will say this, if the team rolls out a line-up with Beleseky as a 4th line winger, Smith as a LD and McQuaid as a RD, they will be a little firmer in their physical push back when needed. I'm not just talking about fighting but a mindset that is more 'pack-like' then we have seen from AV where it was just turn the other cheek. I think that is something Quinn and Gorton are really prioritizing for this season and want their young players to grow within. Setting the example of this being the norm means phasing out guys like McLeod.

This is part of the reason I was more than okay with the addition of McQuaid. Let him play his 60 games with this team and help solidify this mentality. Beleskey on the 4th line brings a similar mentality and with only 2 years left on his deal he's a fine player for a 4th line. Smith brought a similar mentality with him when he was acquired from Detroit and tried to assert himself at times last year.

I think McLeod is meant for the AHL to help instill this similar pack mentality down there. Again, it's not about fighting, it's about instilling the willingness and desire to push back and be the aggressor that this organization has seemingly been missing for more than a few years.

 

[Blue Blooded]

I agree. I think it's just with the assumption that McQuaid will play regularly, there is only one spot on the right with Shattenkirk here. So then naturally it comes down to those two for one spot. I'm not good at math so I'm not sure how many games they could each get if you rotated the three over two spots, but if it was like 50 games each I'd totally be okay with that. It's not ideal, but I think it's more ideal than sending a player who I personally believe should be in the NHL (Pionk) to the AHL, just due to his waiver status.

To be fair, when Pionk was playing 23 min/night the other options at RD were Sproul, Kampfer or playing Gilmour on his off-side - he was thrust into the role by default.

And I would vehemently disagree with the notion that he handled those minutes well. He did put up a handful of points and the team wasn't killed on the scoresheet with him on the ice, unfortunately everything points towards that the outcomes were circumstantial and won't be repeated.

While Pionk was able to a good job reducing the average level of quality of the oppositions shot attempts, he did so at the expense of everything else. The team got nothing going offensively and were utterly barraged in their own end with him on the ice. And it wasn't just that he didn't gel with Staal, his possession numbers were terrible with Skjei and Gilmour as well.

What did happen was that the Rangers' had a 3.24 points higher Sv% with him on the ice, a hugely unsustainable number. For reference, over the past five seasons only nine defencemen (playing at least 4000+ minutes) have been able to sustain a relative Sv% above +1.0 and only 32 above +0.6. The relative 5v5 Sh% was also high (+0.96) but not egregiously so, but the PP had a suspiciously high Sh% (about 6 points higher than with top-5 PPQ Shattenkirk manning the point) in the 30 minutes he got to play on it and he picked up a staggering 5 points in that time (on 6 goals, with 4 points being secondary assists).

I totally understand that just watching Pionk without focusing on him (because I've seen many reports from critics on his inability to get the puck out of the zone) you might come away very impressed. He got a lot of TOI so you saw him a lot. The puck was mostly in the Rangers' zone so you got to see him defend a lot, and he did manage to mitigate the scoring chances (though they were numerous). The few times the Rangers did manage to get on offence the puck usually wound up in the net and with Pionk's name among the assists. The issue is that every single sign points to this being a fluke and not sustainable. The issue is that the data points to Pionk being a primary factor in the Rangers mostly playing defence with him on the ice.

His sole preseason game indicated that we're going to get more of the same (-17 Rel.CF%) and if that's how he is going to play I would prefer McQuaid being in the lineup over him, and I'm NOT a big fan of that acquisition.

 

[eco's bones]

I agree, just because Pionk is waiver exempt does not mean he should be demoted, which is why I questioned the McQuaid acquisition in the first place, it made it a situation where most of NHL development time was going to either ADA or Poink, but likely not both.

Without McQuaid it sure seems like both ADA and Poink would be working on their deficiencies in the NHL.

I get that the Rangers want to be tougher, and McQuaid can bring that at least individually, I get they also have undersized RD, but there is a trade off in NHL developmental time that comes along with that trade.

It kind of looks like Boston traded McQuaid to open up NHL ice time for some developing players, which sets up some strange optics.

Very good post--though I don't have any issue with the McQuaid trade because like Ola I think we need a physcial presence on our backline and between him and Smith we should be pretty good at protecting our goalies and the space in front of the net this year.

It does complicate things on the right side though and another thing is the Shattenkirk, DeAngelo, Pionk trio as players are a lot alike. They're all puck moving guys but on the smaller, weaker side and all have defensive issues. Really it's between Pionk and DeAngelo right now but the two things keeping DeAngelo from being our #1RD is actual instead of projected point production and Kevin Shattenkirk. If Shattenkirk had signed elsewhere DeAngelo would have gotten a full on shot at being our No. 1 point man on the power play last year and that might have been all he needed but I don't see him becoming our No. 1 point guy as long as Kevin is here and that makes ADA's and Pionk's defensive play more of an issue and a requirement.

 

[Ail]

I understand Pionk can go down and ADA can't, but it seems like a questionable way to develop Pionk if they do send him to Hartford. 25 minutes a night in Hartford is fine, and Pionk certainly has some things he could work on, but he was playing 23+ per night with regularity in the NHL last year, and then also got to play in the WC for 10 games. It just seems like a step back that he doesn't need to be taking. Particularly given this is a transitional year for the team, where we're supposed to give development opportunities to the younger players. I'd rather Pionk work on his deficiencies in the NHL than the AHL.

I'm not even particularly a big fan of Pionk but sending him to Hartford after last season would be a pretty big snub. Especially if McSquidward is his replacement. ADA playing well should force vets out not Pionk. If Pionk ends up sucking send him down later.

 

[nyr2k2]

To be fair, when Pionk was playing 23 min/night the other options at RD were Sproul, Kampfer or playing Gilmour on his off-side - he was thrust into the role by default.

And I would vehemently disagree with the notion that he handled those minutes well. He did put up a handful of points and the team wasn't killed on the scoresheet with him on the ice, unfortunately everything points towards that the outcomes were circumstantial and won't be repeated.

While Pionk was able to a good job reducing the average level of quality of the oppositions shot attempts, he did so at the expense of everything else. The team got nothing going offensively and were utterly barraged in their own end with him on the ice. And it wasn't just that he didn't gel with Staal, his possession numbers were terrible with Skjei and Gilmour as well.

What did happen was that the Rangers' had a 3.24 points higher Sv% with him on the ice, a hugely unsustainable number. For reference, over the past five seasons only nine defencemen (playing at least 4000+ minutes) have been able to sustain a relative Sv% above +1.0 and only 32 above +0.6. The relative 5v5 Sh% was also high (+0.96) but not egregiously so, but the PP had a suspiciously high Sh% (about 6 points higher than with top-5 PPQ Shattenkirk manning the point) in the 30 minutes he got to play on it and he picked up a staggering 5 points in that time (on 6 goals, with 4 points being secondary assists).

I totally understand that just watching Pionk without focusing on him (because I've seen many reports from critics on his inability to get the puck out of the zone) you might come away very impressed. He got a lot of TOI so you saw him a lot. The puck was mostly in the Rangers' zone so you got to see him defend a lot, and he did manage to mitigate the scoring chances (though they were numerous). The few times the Rangers did manage to get on offence the puck usually wound up in the net and with Pionk's name among the assists. The issue is that every single sign points to this being a fluke and not sustainable. The issue is that the data points to Pionk being a primary factor in the Rangers mostly playing defence with him on the ice.

His sole preseason game indicated that we're going to get more of the same (-17 Rel.CF%) and if that's how he is going to play I would prefer McQuaid being in the lineup over him, and I'm NOT a big fan of that acquisition.

My point isn't that Pionk is some fantastic defenseman who handled his tough assignment in an able and impressive fashion, it's that he has things he needs to work on, and that whatever development he needs to do should be done at the NHL level in this, a rebuilding season. Sending out Adam McQuaid (who will be gone next year if not this year) does nothing to help the team's long term prospects; any positive development of Pionk is something that can help the team long term. That's what we should be focusing on this year: what helps the young players most this season and the team most in the long run.

And look--if Pionk sucks for the first 10-20 games and looks completely overwhelmed then send him down. That's fine. That would be what's best for him. But I firmly believe what is best for him right now is to continue playing against NHL players and developing while playing at the highest level. If you honestly think that he's that bad that he should go to Hartford so we can play a glorified rental whose best asset is not quantifiable, that's cool, I just don't think that's smart planning.

As far as all the numbers you just regurgitated, I know, man. I don't mean that in a disrespectful way because I know you're using them honestly and genuinely to prove your point; it's just that five posts into every Pionk discussion those same numbers come out, so we all know, at this point.

 

[silverfish]

I agree with both @Blue Blooded and @nyr2k2 here.

I don't think Pionk was anywhere near as good last season as some of the praise he got might make you believe, however, it behooves the Rangers at this point where the organization is to play him over McQuaid basically no matter what. If we're playing him over ADA, then I think we get into troubled territory.

On the same token, it also behooves the Rangers at this point to play anyone over Staal, but that we know we won't happen, so maybe this won't either

 

[nyr2k2]

[MOD]

Honestly, there's not gonna be a show, here. Not from me. As I said to Blue Blooded, I understand the underlying numbers of Pionk's performance. At this point I can probably recite half the numbers from memory because they've been brought up so frequently.

My response has always been this: he was a rookie, from the NCAA, who had basically played as many games to that point as he ever had previously upon his call up, who was then thrust into a role that he wasn't ready for, often with a poor partner, and I thought he handled himself well. I also liked what I saw in the WC, where he played well, albeit in lesser minutes. If the advanced stats say otherwise, that's fine, but it doesn't change my opinion of his potential or my analysis of his season.

 

[eco's bones]

I will say this, if the team rolls out a line-up with Beleseky as a 4th line winger, Smith as a LD and McQuaid as a RD, they will be a little firmer in their physical push back when needed. I'm not just talking about fighting but a mindset that is more 'pack-like' then we have seen from AV where it was just turn the other cheek. I think that is something Quinn and Gorton are really prioritizing for this season and want their young players to grow within. Setting the example of this being the norm means phasing out guys like McLeod.

This is part of the reason I was more than okay with the addition of McQuaid. Let him play his 60 games with this team and help solidify this mentality. Beleskey on the 4th line brings a similar mentality and with only 2 years left on his deal he's a fine player for a 4th line. Smith brought a similar mentality with him when he was acquired from Detroit and tried to assert himself at times last year.

I think McLeod is meant for the AHL to help instill this similar pack mentality down there. Again, it's not about fighting, it's about instilling the willingness and desire to push back and be the aggressor that this organization has seemingly been missing for more than a few years.

Hopefully Beleskey can add something because I don't have a whole lot of faith in McLeod at this point. McQuaid is a guy who can control the front of the net and he is legitimately tough and yeah it's a positive thing to have your young guys know that someone has their back and know they can push back when they're getting pushed.