Never thought I'd ask this question, are Leafs missing Dermott and Gardiner more than anticipated?

[Durrr]

aDdItIoN bY sUbTrAcTiOn....

 

[Al14]

It’s not that Gardiner is some defensive stalwart. It’s just that the Marincin and Holl are tire fires.... and yes worse than Gardiner.

This team lacks depth on defense. In fact right the the fourth best d man in the organization is probably 18 yr old Rasmus Sandin which is kind of pathetic. Rosen might get a shot when he returns from injury. Otherwise it’s Death Valley depth wise.

Muzzin was a decent pick up but he reminds me of Cody Franson. Physical with good puck skills but lacking mobility. He needs to play with a mobile partner.

The leafs desperately need brains, compete and toughness on d.

A solid guy to play with Rielly.

Wow, comparing Muzzin to Cody freaking Franson! Way to disrespect Muzzin. Sure, Muzzin isn't as fleet of foot as Gardiner, however, he's not nearly as slow, and pylon worthy, as Franson.

Franson has a good shot from the point, however, Muzzin has a canon too.

So, IMHO, Muzzin is >>> than Franson.

 

[Cap'n Flavour]

He doesn't have to "dump" Hainsey this is his last year , he can come back on the old standard 1x1 deal.

No, no no and no. The only safe way to ensure that Hainsey never plays another shift with Rielly is to dump Hainsey in the ocean. It can be the Bahamas if he wants, but bringing him back is a terrible idea.

Wow, comparing Muzzin to Cody freaking Franson! Way to disrespect Muzzin. Sure, Muzzin isn't as fleet of foot as Gardiner, however, he's not nearly as slow, and pylon worthy, as Franson.

Franson was pretty good here. It's not an unreasonable or unfair comparison. Hell, Franson got heat for making bad pinches, which Muzzin also has done quite a bit recently.

 

[ULF_55]

By Ice-Time:

#1 - Rielly
#2 - Gardiner
#3 - Zaitsev
#4 - Muzzin
#5 - Hainsey
#6 - Dermott
#7 - Marincin
#8 - Ozhiganov

Many teams lose defenders, but you would think you'd be able to cover off a #6, which doesn't look like they are doing.

Honestly, I just think Andersen isn't covering up their mistakes and the forwards aren't doing a very good job at defending.

And the bench doesn't seem to be able to make a basic line change.

 

[RoadWarrior]

Wow, comparing Muzzin to Cody freaking Franson! Way to disrespect Muzzin. Sure, Muzzin isn't as fleet of foot as Gardiner, however, he's not nearly as slow, and pylon worthy, as Franson.

Franson has a good shot from the point, however, Muzzin has a canon too.

So, IMHO, Muzzin is >>> than Franson.

My point being that Muzzin needs a mobile partner to succeed. That’s why he was paired with Doughty in LA.

The problem in Toronto is that Rielly is a LHD and plays the same side as Muzzin. His best fit right now is Zaitsev but Turnover machine really shouldn’t be playing much more than 15 minutes a game.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

obvious answer - yes

 

[bossram]

My point being that Muzzin needs a mobile partner to succeed. That’s why he was paired with Doughty in LA.

The problem in Toronto is that Rielly is a LHD and plays the same side as Muzzin. His best fit right now is Zaitsev but Turnover machine really shouldn’t be playing much more than 15 minutes a game.

The obvious answer is to put Rielly on Muzzin's right (and Rielly has played the right side before) and give them the bulk of the minutes in Gardiner and Dermott's absence. But Babcock is loathe to do that.

When (if) they return, Bab's has to give his four best defensemen the most icetime, regardless of handedness.

 

[Daisy Jane]

yes.
so you'd think our GM - knowing that 1 had back issues for the longest time and that the depth in the minors were injured would have gotten some more depth defensemen better than some of the ones we have.

he did not.

 

[2022 Stanley Cup]

It's a mix between we obviously were going to give up more shots and more high-quality shots than before. Regardless of how much you like gardiner or dermott they both help the team a lot more than marincin or ozhiganov can. Plus Freddy isn't bailing them out for the first time all season, Bad timing for all of these injuries.

 

[Not My Tempo]

yes.
so you'd think our GM - knowing that 1 had back issues for the longest time and that the depth in the minors were injured would have gotten some more depth defensemen better than some of the ones we have.

he did not.

Fixing our bottom pair won’t matter as long as Hainsey and Zaitsev are getting >20 mins a night on different top 4 pairings.

This team has been crap defensively for years, and yet Trotz can come in and take a league worst defence to league best in the Islanders with little personelle change.

I said at the start of the year that we can get Karlsson and it wouldn’t matter if all we ask him to do is blindly ring the puck around the boards or send a stretch pass up the ice nonstop, and we’re essentially seeing that with Muzzin.

This team plays like it’s less than the sum of its parts. Idk if that’s on me for overrating the “parts” or on Babcock for not fostering a way to succeed.

 

[nsleaf]

yes.
so you'd think our GM - knowing that 1 had back issues for the longest time and that the depth in the minors were injured would have gotten some more depth defensemen better than some of the ones we have.

he did not.

Agree, he should have acquired depth that doesn't get injured.

 

[Gary Nylund]

yes.
so you'd think our GM - knowing that 1 had back issues for the longest time and that the depth in the minors were injured would have gotten some more depth defensemen better than some of the ones we have.

he did not.

I can only guess you're referring to Gardiner as he's the guy with "back issues". He hasn't played less than 79 games in any season since 1012-13 though so blaming our GM for not anticipating this seems agenda-driven.

 

[The Man with a Plan]

I can only guess you're referring to Gardiner as he's the guy with "back issues". He hasn't played less than 79 games in any season since 1012-13 though so blaming our GM for not anticipating this seems agenda-driven.

Absolutely. It is also a huge leap to say that he didn't try to upgrade the D corps. He got the best D available and without giving up the farm to do so.
Noone has any way of knowing how hard the leafs tried to add a depth D or two. For all we know the asking price were all of a sudden too high and not worth the risk.

We also couldn't have possibly forseen the fact that we would loose Gards and Dermott at the same time as we had lost our top 3 or 4 D call ups from the Marlies due to injuries.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Absolutely. It is also a huge leap to say that he didn't try to upgrade the D corps. He got the best D available and without giving up the farm to do so.

Yeah it's really strange to me when people complain about not adding D and I wonder had we waited until the TDL to get Muzzin, would they still be complaining? How much more did they really think we could add?

Noone has any way of knowing how hard the leafs tried to add a depth D or two. For all we know the asking price were all of a sudden too high and not worth the risk.

Exactly this. We see the same nonsense every season, people complain that the GM didn't "address our needs" as if there are always deals to be made that are actually good for us.

We also couldn't have possibly forseen the fact that we would loose Gards and Dermott at the same time as we had lost our top 3 or 4 D call ups from the Marlies due to injuries.

And this is of course also true.

I understand people are upset, I'm still in shock myself after last weeks dismal performance but dumping on Dubas for not getting us a few more top 4 Dmen is just absurd.

 

[horner]

He won't fix what is wrong with us.

 

[ninetyone]

yes.
so you'd think our GM - knowing that 1 had back issues for the longest time and that the depth in the minors were injured would have gotten some more depth defensemen better than some of the ones we have.

he did not.

Well, Muzzin was in fact that player and getting a second one of those, meaning one who can play in your top four, would likely have been very expensive (possibly not worth it, especially after giving up a 1st rounder already)

Not sure losing a player like Liljegrin, Sandin or another 1st for possibly a rental dman that you won't have the cap space to retain is realistic.

At some point, you build your team and see how it responds in the playoffs, knowing you can't get everything.

The playoffs will come down to your best being better than their best. The players at the bottom of the roster are risks on both sides. For every goal that Ennis or Moore get, there's another "Marincin/Holl/Ozhiganov" on the other side as well.

 

[ShaneFalco]

I understand people are upset, I'm still in shock myself after last weeks dismal performance but dumping on Dubas for not getting us a few more top 4 Dmen is just absurd.

Especially those who rave about Lou - who was unable to address the D needs for a few years.

 

[stickty111]

I can only guess you're referring to Gardiner as he's the guy with "back issues". He hasn't played less than 79 games in any season since 1012-13 though so blaming our GM for not anticipating this seems agenda-driven.

Quoted for truth.
It is agenda driven.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Well, Muzzin was in fact that player and getting a second one of those, meaning one who can play in your top four, would likely have been very expensive (possibly not worth it, especially after giving up a 1st rounder already)

Not sure losing a player like Liljegrin, Sandin or another 1st for possibly a rental dman that you won't have the cap space to retain is realistic.

At some point, you build your team and see how it responds in the playoffs, knowing you can't get everything.

The playoffs will come down to your best being better than their best. The players at the bottom of the roster are risks on both sides. For every goal that Ennis or Moore get, there's another "Marincin/Holl/Ozhiganov" on the other side as well.

right. thus. our lousy guys should be better than their lousy players.
and didn't say we should have run out and gotten like another high priced defenseman.
but what I am saying is - Jake had had back issues for a while - any back issues aren't something you just "Feel better' during the season. so if Muzzin was replacing Jake, then there should been another move to get another depth defenseman.

and. knowing that your two "next call ups" were injured, getting a few cheap. defensemen wouldn't have cost Lily, Sandin or another 1st.

 

[Gary Nylund]

right. thus. our lousy guys should be better than their lousy players.
and didn't say we should have run out and gotten like another high priced defenseman.
but what I am saying is - Jake had had back issues for a while - any back issues aren't something you just "Feel better' during the season. so if Muzzin was replacing Jake, then there should been another move to get another depth defenseman.

and. knowing that your two "next call ups" were injured, getting a few cheap. defensemen wouldn't have cost Lily, Sandin or another 1st.

1)
Whatever "issues" Jake had had "for a while" hadn't prevented him from playing at least 79 games per season since 1012-13 so making plans anticipating him being out for an extended period of time makes no sense.

2)
Jake was healthy when we got Muzzin. We didn't get Muzzin to replace Jake, we got him to you know, improve our defence.

 

[Al14]

No, no no and no. The only safe way to ensure that Hainsey never plays another shift with Rielly is to dump Hainsey in the ocean. It can be the Bahamas if he wants, but bringing him back is a terrible idea.



Franson was pretty good here. It's not an unreasonable or unfair comparison. Hell, Franson got heat for making bad pinches, which Muzzin also has done quite a bit recently.

If Franson was pretty good here, he'd still BE HERE, or, at the very least, be in the NHL.

He was horrible, opposition players went around him like a rabbit does to a turtle! I remember one short handed goal against, where the opposing player blew by Franson pretty easily to score!

 

[Le Cobra]

I believe that when Sandin and Liljegren join the Leafs they will drastically and dramatically improve our defence. I hope Gardiner returns in time so we can make the playoffs - at this rate we are at risk of falling out of contention

 

[Vaive50]

Nope. This was honestly expected lol.

Gardiner is probably the 3rd best defenseman in the league anchoring a 2nd pairing (behind subban and burns) and probably our best 5v5 defensive defenseman.

Dermott is probably the best 3rd pairing defenseman in the entire league, and probably our 3rd best 5v5 defensive defenseman.

They're also both the strong transition player on their pairing. Losing one of those guys hurts, losing both is crippling.

I agree with your rankings of Gardiner and Dermott but I also think that them not playing is not the problem (in these last 4 games). I say this because without them, we were able to spank the powerful Calgary Flames 6-2 in their barn and although we lost that stupid one in OT to Vancouver, we did beat the Oilers and hold them to only 2 goals (against McDavid and Dria). The boys know that also, I think (and hope) that the 6-2 whooping to the Sens is embarrassing enough to get their act together. These next 10 games are basically to prepare for the playoffs (no stress cause there's no way the Habs are catching them now).

 

[The Man with a Plan]

right. thus. our lousy guys should be better than their lousy players.
and didn't say we should have run out and gotten like another high priced defenseman.
but what I am saying is - Jake had had back issues for a while - any back issues aren't something you just "Feel better' during the season. so if Muzzin was replacing Jake, then there should been another move to get another depth defenseman.

and. knowing that your two "next call ups" were injured, getting a few cheap. defensemen wouldn't have cost Lily, Sandin or another 1st.

Come on Daisy... our crappy players should be better then another teams?
Lousy is lousy. And trading for more bottom tier fodder wouldn't have done us any good. Wasting assets on stop gaps and what ifs.

Noone but Dubas has the knowledge of what the prices were for D

For all we know the asking prices were too high especially knowing that in time we have Rosen, Borgman, Sandman and Lily all knocking on the door. Dubas and Shanny probably didn't want to sell the farm as they don't view this season as so many do.

Do Or die. All in for one crack and then wait a few years to have the assets to do it again.

Dubas has done more then enough in his first year ( actually he's done better then Lou and any of the old guard that we went thru over the past 20 years)
He is also smart enough to take his time and make the right deals rather then abiding by the old ways, you know...making a deal just to make one not ever for a minute asking if it helps or hinders the long term big picture.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

I think we'd be missing them less if the AHL team wasn't also hit with injuries, Sandin, Rosen even Borgman would be an upgrade on Holl and Marincin.