Never thought I'd ask this question, are Leafs missing Dermott and Gardiner more than anticipated?
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thewave
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- Jun 17, 2011
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Sad because it's true. Dubas then killed Kappy or AJ or Dermott with about 2.5m unwarranted capbucks into Nylander and Matthews. If Marner gets an equal overpay, it could be around 4m in overpays with Nylander being the least @500k or so.
I wouldn’t say gardiner or Dermott are top 10-20 defensemen in the league, but they are critical to the style we play, which is possession in the d-zone, and moving the puck into the o-zone (vs dump and chase the way a team like the islanders play, with bigger forwards). So having 2 great puck moving defensemen out is not great.
DitchMarner
It's time.
Of course, they have four Bobby Orrs on the Marlies they can call up and replace him with at any time. That's why he has no importance to the team.
djdev
Registered User
to me this isnt a problem of missing 2 specific guys. its a systems thing. i have no idea how to change it but something has to give.
because we are so reliant on the stretch pass it seems the forwards are always trying to cheat going the other way and never come back far enough as a unit to provide options for a short outlet, and when the forwards do come back they dont put themselves in good positions to carry the puck out, so alot of the time it turns into giveaways and then our players panic and over commit to the puck carrier and leave guys WIDE open in amazing scoring positions lol.
because we are so reliant on the stretch pass it seems the forwards are always trying to cheat going the other way and never come back far enough as a unit to provide options for a short outlet, and when the forwards do come back they dont put themselves in good positions to carry the puck out, so alot of the time it turns into giveaways and then our players panic and over commit to the puck carrier and leave guys WIDE open in amazing scoring positions lol.
We leaned on Andersen before both of those guys went down, in a sort of bend but don't break situation
Those two could also promote the puck up ice
Now were breaking, we just don't have enough capable defenseman and we can't get the puck out of our own zone consistently
Those two could also promote the puck up ice
Now were breaking, we just don't have enough capable defenseman and we can't get the puck out of our own zone consistently
The Best Leafs Ever
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- Feb 28, 2017
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Dermott yes, Gardiner not at all. Who wants garbage Gardiner on this team. Let him rot wherever else he is and will be.
But guys Muzzin is supposed to be replacing Gardiner and is a huge upgrade! Or so Ive been told. Gardiner is our best 5v5 dman and losing him was huge. Losing Dermott as well is huge as well. In addition, Muzzin hasn't impressed me and given me any confidence he can replace Gardiner or be anything close. Our defense will get worse next year and thats scary
lebdafor norris
sleepy
- Mar 14, 2011
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Not everyone here is a big believer of analytics which is why I stopped using stats such as xGA/60 or HDCA/60 to prove Gardiner's worth as those that don't believe that Gardiner is actually a terrific 5 vs 5 D man wont be convince by these stats. I will however use the stat GA/60 (goals against average per 60) as you don't have to be a big stat guy to know that its a useful tool in evaluating Dmen and while its not the best stat in predicting future results it does tell us that thing we want to know most, how many goals did the other team score while Gardiner was on ice relative to Gard's own teammates or the league in general. Numbers below are purely 5 vs 5 and are using stat starting from the beginning of last season.
BTW, its very normal for a team's bottom pairing Dman to lead the team in goals against average due to the quality of competition the pairings face but what always jumps up to me was just how much lower Gardiner's numbers are compare to the other top 4 Dman on this team; Hainsey, Zaitsev, Rielly and Muzzin. He has also averaged more 5 vs 5 ice time this last 2 seasons compare than anyone elso on this team and this is very difficult to replace. His style of play might not be to everyone's taste but his he is perfect for this system Babs is running, in fact Gardiner is in the top 10 percentile in "zone exits with possesion per 60" and top 26 percentile in preventing "offensive zone entries with possesion," both of which are crucial qualities that is needed in a Dman to help his team from getting stuck on their own Dzone, especially with a run n gun system like the Leafs.
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It’s crazy there’s people who still believe this
The Apologist
Apologizing for Leaf garbage since 1979
Brock Radunske
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Nithoniniel
Registered User
People know how I feel about Gardiner and Dermott.
With that said, the issue I see on the ice isn't the defensemen. It's the constant shortcuts taken by our forwards. Almost across the board. With Andersen in net and Gardiner and Dermott on the ice for us, we hide some of that. Gardiner with his skating can close off a lot of space that our forwards leave open, and Dermott can close gaps with the best of them. If that doesn't work, Andersen often bails us out. But our d-men tend to look worse than they are basically because they are put in a more difficult position than most d-men. I've watched a ton of LA games over the years. Muzzin is a great d-man. Without a doubt a top pairing guy. But he is used to support. He is used to having somebody in close to help him if he can't quite control the puck. He's used to a team that works its way out of situation, whereas here he is expected to take the puck, get the space, and move the puck up fast. That's a tough job under pressure.
The root problem here is the stretch passing. The team is expected to stretch out the ice. They want the puck up high quick. If it's a tip in, they need the second guy to already be rushing up the other boards to get it. If it's tape to tape, they need a second guy with speed in support, coming up the middle. They need to make great reads on when to go already from the point where the d-men turn up ice to search for the stretch play. That's also a difficult read, since you need to make it that early, and if you make the wrong choice then the consequences can be dire.
The stretch play is effective when it works. It really is. But is it worth it? I don't think so, especially not when we already struggle with our cycle defense. That's my impression at least, but I'm also just an amateur.
With that said, the issue I see on the ice isn't the defensemen. It's the constant shortcuts taken by our forwards. Almost across the board. With Andersen in net and Gardiner and Dermott on the ice for us, we hide some of that. Gardiner with his skating can close off a lot of space that our forwards leave open, and Dermott can close gaps with the best of them. If that doesn't work, Andersen often bails us out. But our d-men tend to look worse than they are basically because they are put in a more difficult position than most d-men. I've watched a ton of LA games over the years. Muzzin is a great d-man. Without a doubt a top pairing guy. But he is used to support. He is used to having somebody in close to help him if he can't quite control the puck. He's used to a team that works its way out of situation, whereas here he is expected to take the puck, get the space, and move the puck up fast. That's a tough job under pressure.
The root problem here is the stretch passing. The team is expected to stretch out the ice. They want the puck up high quick. If it's a tip in, they need the second guy to already be rushing up the other boards to get it. If it's tape to tape, they need a second guy with speed in support, coming up the middle. They need to make great reads on when to go already from the point where the d-men turn up ice to search for the stretch play. That's also a difficult read, since you need to make it that early, and if you make the wrong choice then the consequences can be dire.
The stretch play is effective when it works. It really is. But is it worth it? I don't think so, especially not when we already struggle with our cycle defense. That's my impression at least, but I'm also just an amateur.
Leafidelity
Best Sport/Worst League
Teams need four top 4 defensemen, especially when they replace them with two 8s.
Gardiner is still a complete wildcard, he's just one that can make a basic pass.
Gardiner is still a complete wildcard, he's just one that can make a basic pass.
Loosie
The Eternal Optimist
Leafsfan74
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- Jul 2, 2018
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I don't personally dislike Gardiner as a D man, I've always said, his biggest problems with the occasional lapses of judgement or lack of focus. In general, he's been a very good, puck moving D man.
What surprises me, is a drop off was expected, but the goals against since they've been out is a drop off a cliff. It's the difference between being a playoff team and one that wouldn't be,
I wouldn't think ANY team in the league would have such clear drop off in defensive play with the loss of two D men. There should be reasonable band aid replacements in the waiting room.
What surprises me, is a drop off was expected, but the goals against since they've been out is a drop off a cliff. It's the difference between being a playoff team and one that wouldn't be,
I wouldn't think ANY team in the league would have such clear drop off in defensive play with the loss of two D men. There should be reasonable band aid replacements in the waiting room.
If you thought we wouldn't miss Gardiner, I'm sorry, but you are dumb.
Leafsfan74
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- Jul 2, 2018
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Read the title "more than anticipated"
Go back to watching your reruns of Coaches Corner and "Rock 'Em Sock 'Em Hockey".
hector morrison
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- Apr 1, 2018
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Leafsfan74
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Hehe Well played.
I do think though, he and Dermott are missed more than we could have imagined. I suppose in a Cap system, any and all injuries are magnified.
When your depth is the likes of Martin Marincin, you'd badly miss anyone who is at least an average NHL defenceman.
Atomos2
Registered User
Yes in the sense that theres now more strain on Rielly and Hainsey which they haven't been taking well. Also it doesn't help that Zaitsev who is already known to be pure garbage, has take his garbageness to a whole different level this week with the added responsibility placed on him. The more we don't have to rely on Zaitsev the better.
socko
Registered User
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