Need some Size: Bickell or Horton or Both

[Heaton]

[/B]

Why do people resort to these strawman arguments? No one is saying they need an enforcer, and no one is saying they need to scrap the team and start over. What some of us are saying is that the team could use a few players with some size, or at least willing to mix it up, to get their star players the puck, simple. I love when the subject of the Wings signing bigger players comes up, people like yourself turn it into an enforcer argument. We are all in agreement that one dimensional enforcers are going the way of the dinosaur.

The Wings have those players, they just don't employ a game plan that is based around it.

 

[bababooeyII]

The Wings have those players, they just don't employ a game plan that is based around it.

Besides Abdelkader and Helm I can't really think of another player on the Wings who plays the role of forechecker and banger effectively. Or better said, I can't think of anyone besides those two players who embrace that role.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

[/B]

Why do people resort to these strawman arguments? No one is saying they need an enforcer, and no one is saying they need to scrap the team and start over. What some of us are saying is that the team could use a few players with some size, or at least willing to mix it up, to get their star players the puck, simple. I love when the subject of the Wings signing bigger players comes up, people like yourself turn it into an enforcer argument. We are all in agreement that one dimensional enforcers are going the way of the dinosaur.

It's not a straw man. The argument was: the Wings should get some big/tough players so that they don't get pushed around in the big, tough East. This has been stated a bunch of times. It might not be your argument, but it's a very common one.

My point was: the Wings didn't need big/tough players to keep from getting pushed around in the past, and they don't need it now. I have no idea why you think that's a straw man.

 

[bababooeyII]

It's not a straw man. The argument was: the Wings should get some big/tough players so that they don't get pushed around in the big, tough East. This has been stated a bunch of times.

My point was: the Wings didn't need big/tough players to keep from getting pushed around, and they don't need it now. I have no idea why you think that's a straw man.

Because you claim it means we're pinning for an enforcer, and I don't see the two as being mutually exclusive. Wanting the Wings to get bigger and meaner is something that should compliment their puck possession game, guys that can get them the puck and give their star players some room to maneuver. Being in the East they will see teams that play bigger than the Western Conference, but whichever conference they're in I think the Wings would help themselves by getting a few guys who like to be physical and have some talent.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Because you claim it means we're pinning for an enforcer, and I don't see the two as being mutually exclusive. Wanting the Wings to get bigger and meaner is something that should compliment their puck possession game, guys that can get them the puck and give their star players some room to maneuver. Being in the East they will see teams that play bigger than the Western Conference, but whichever conference they're in I think the Wings would help themselves by getting a few guys who like to be physical and have some talent.

I never said that. I didn't use the "E" word specifically because this is a Bickell/Horton/Clarkson/etc thread and those guys aren't enforcers. To be as clear as possible, I don't think the Wings need any of those guys (or other big players not explicitly mentioned) to do perfectly well in the East.

In fact, in the case of Bickell and perhaps Clarkson, I'm not sure it would even make the Wings a better team. It could make them bigger and tougher, but worse at actually playing ice hockey. (I sure think so.)

 

[FlashyG]

Let's see if they chose skill over size.

Forwards

Chris Neil
Matt Kassian
Latandresse

All tough forwards, let's go to defense:

Jared Cowen
Marc Methot
Eric Gryba

Pretty gritty team, and it's not even the toughest, showing once again how physical the East really is.

Cowen and Latendresse were both healthy scratches for the majority of the year with Latendresse being eventually released.

Gryba was filling in for injuries and might be back in the AHL next year.

Kassian was brought in, and had minimal impact on their roster despite fighting other teams heavyweights.

Neil and Method are both big guys but are both also skilled at their positions.

At the end of the day though the average size between the Wings and Senators isn't that much.

The Senators average height and weight is 6'1 204lbs
The Wings average is 6'1 202lbs
While the Bruins are 6'1 201 lbs.

With fighting being phased out of the league there is less and less reason to carry a heavyweight, if some our guys start being abused maybe we bring one in, but I'd wait and see before wasting the roster spot on one.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Cowen and Latendresse were both healthy scratches for the majority of the year with Latendresse being eventually released.

Gryba was filling in for injuries and might be back in the AHL next year.

Kassian was brought in, and had minimal impact on their roster despite fighting other teams heavyweights.

Neil and Method are both big guys but are both also skilled at their positions.

At the end of the day though the average size between the Wings and Senators isn't that much.

The Senators average height and weight is 6'1 204lbs
The Wings average is 6'1 202lbs
While the Bruins are 6'1 201 lbs.

With fighting being phased out of the league there is less and less reason to carry a heavyweight, if some our guys start being abused maybe we bring one in, but I'd wait and see before wasting the roster spot on one.

WTF?

He was injured during the lockout, had hip surgery and was out like 4-5 months. Came back much earlier than predicted. Can't recall him being scratched for a game.

 

[FlashyG]

Yes, they do. They can make the cap space if they wanted to. Also it is becoming quite clear that a lot of teams are struggling to get under the cap, which should mean with buy outs and salary dumping the this summer should be more than active. No reason at all for the Wings to sit on their hands

They will buyout Samuelsson and possibly Coliaiacovo if they can't trade him.

After that the only way they have to free salary is to trade and with teams struggling to get under the cap they are only going to take on salary if they are giving some back.

I know its not popular around here but there will be no free agency bonanza for the Wings this off-season we'll be lucky to add even 1 good free agent.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

we'll be lucky to add even 1 good free agent.

Let's not kid ourselves. There's maybe 1 good free agent in the whole crop. Maybe.

 

[FlashyG]

WTF?

He was injured during the lockout, had hip surgery and was out like 4-5 months. Came back much earlier than predicted. Can't recall him being scratched for a game.

You're right, I didn't know it was an injury that limited his games played this season.

I read his story about his plans to be at the Boston Marathon finish line the day of the bombing as he was sitting out that night as a healthy scratch.

I saw he only played a handful of games this year remembered that article and incorrectly assumed he was a healthy scratch most of the year.

 

[SoupNazi]

Let's not kid ourselves. There's maybe 1 good free agent in the whole crop. Maybe.

Agreed. I'm not impressed by this crop of FAs at all.

 

[SportsballChic]

Let's not kid ourselves. There's maybe 1 good free agent in the whole crop. Maybe.

And even *he* has issues, assuming we both mean Nathan Horton.

Seems like there's something legitimately wrong with everyone else; Horton is just "well, he might retire concussed eventually". Which is a big deal I admit but somehow the "lesser of all evils"

 

[bababooeyII]

I think there are decent players to be had, at the right price. Having said that, the real action will be in who gets bought out, and who gets traded. Teams under the cap and able to take on salary might have an ability to get a good player for decent value.

 

[Tomas W]

Wouldnt mind Horton if DRW could get him somehow.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

And even *he* has issues, assuming we both mean Nathan Horton.

Seems like there's something legitimately wrong with everyone else; Horton is just "well, he might retire concussed eventually". Which is a big deal I admit but somehow the "lesser of all evils"

With LTIR I don't know why people are so concerned. Sure it dictates certain abilities in the off-season in terms of payroll. But if he gets his melon squashed for good, they have a system where we can recapture that anyway.

If we have learned anything from the Bruins and Flyers it is while it is unfortunate to lose that guy, his cap hit and team structure is a little less of a problem than many make it out to be. As long as Ilitch is okay with that and he is insurable than go for it.

 

[SportsballChic]

With LTIR I don't know why people are so concerned. Sure it dictates certain abilities in the off-season in terms of payroll. But if he gets his melon squashed for good, they have a system where we can recapture that anyway.

If we have learned anything from the Bruins and Flyers it is while it is unfortunate to lose that guy, his cap hit and team structure is a little less of a problem than many make it out to be. As long as Ilitch is okay with that and he is insurable than go for it.

That seems fair. I would definitely rather have a proven "player" who has a potential medical issue than a safer guy who just can't "do it".

Horton is a beast. He's the only FA I wouldn't really care how much we paid him. I just never got the sense we are actually in the running.

Would love to be surprised.

 

[crashman]

Let's not kid ourselves. There's maybe 1 good free agent in the whole crop. Maybe.

It might seem like I'm campaigning for him lately, but how is Iginla not considered a good free-agent?

Yes, he's up there in age, but I don't see him wanting a ton of money (I think he wants to win) and he's still very capable of netting 30 goals and bringing a ton of leadership to the table. He's a right-handed shot that knows how to find open ice. I really think him and Datsyuk would be dynamite together.

Iginla on a short-team (2 year, sub $6m) deal is the best UFA signing the Wings could hope to make, in my opinion.

But like some have mentioned, some really good players might become available through buyouts, and that's really intriguing.

 

[Winger98]

It might seem like I'm campaigning for him lately, but how is Iginla not considered a good free-agent?

Yes, he's up there in age, but I don't see him wanting a ton of money (I think he wants to win) and he's still very capable of netting 30 goals and bringing a ton of leadership to the table. He's a right-handed shot that knows how to find open ice. I really think him and Datsyuk would be dynamite together.

Iginla on a short-team (2 year, sub $6m) deal is the best UFA signing the Wings could hope to make, in my opinion.

But like some have mentioned, some really good players might become available through buyouts, and that's really intriguing.

I definitely wouldn't be against Iginla, and if we're blowing $6m+, I'd much rather have it be on a short term deal than a long term deal, as I'm just not sold on locking into a guy like Horton for that price for five years or better.We need to see Holland rid himself of some of these contracts first, though.

 

[SoupNazi]

I definitely wouldn't be against Iginla, and if we're blowing $6m+, I'd much rather have it be on a short term deal than a long term deal, as I'm just not sold on locking into a guy like Horton for that price for five years or better.We need to see Holland rid himself of some of these contracts first, though.

I agree. I really don't want to lock Horton in to stupid money for the next seven years - with the prospect pool we have it doesn't seem like our smartest decision.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

I agree. I really don't want to lock Horton in to stupid money for the next seven years - with the prospect pool we have it doesn't seem like our smartest decision.

That's what's killing me: every halfway decent UFA is turning into a lifetime commitment.

 

[crashman]

I definitely wouldn't be against Iginla, and if we're blowing $6m+, I'd much rather have it be on a short term deal than a long term deal, as I'm just not sold on locking into a guy like Horton for that price for five years or better.We need to see Holland rid himself of some of these contracts first, though.

I agree. I really don't want to lock Horton in to stupid money for the next seven years - with the prospect pool we have it doesn't seem like our smartest decision.

I feel the same, that's why I'm excited to see who Holland's able to unload. I think Tatar, Nyquist, Andersson and DeKeyser are gonna step right in and be big factors right away next year. People are still complaining about us signing old guys, but the Wings have gotten a lot younger recently and no cup contender is complete without a few 35+ grizzeled vets, especially a Red Wings team.

Horton is a good player for sure, but he's gonna be looking for big money and long-term (rightfully so), and I don't want Holland to risk it on a guy with the type of injuries he's had. I don't think there's much chance we sign him, so I'm not too worried about it.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Joe Haggerty ‏@HackswithHaggs 4m
Chiarelli said B's would like Nathan Horton back. #18 looking for 5-6 yr deal in $6M range. May take less to stay w/Bs

Ugh. That's not a contract, that's a marriage.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Ugh. That's not a contract, that's a marriage.

Said 5.5 million to 6, have to be honest I would pay him that. Some of this is about your team structure and we can fit that in.

It isn't perfect, but if we can get the 5.5 I would take it, if he gets hurt he gets hurt. But he is a terrific fit for this team and we have some carefully managed assets. Why let the cap space just sit out there.

If they can get in on somebody bought out maybe it is different. But Horton is in his prime for this contract and he performs in the playoffs and provides a big body. His head concerns are what they are, there is risk, but there is considerable upside in our lineup to adding this particular player.

I also think the cap is going to grow, although the predictions of the Canadian dollar sagging to 90 cents on the dollar do give me some pause there. Still the Blackhawks owner said he expects a billion in revenue growth over the next three years, think of what that does for the cap.

 

[Heaton]

Guys, keep in mind that Horton's career year was 62 points and that was years ago. He has size and had an insane +/- this post season, but 6 years and 6m? For MAYBE 60 points? Very, very risky with his injury history.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Guys, keep in mind that Horton's career year was 62 points and that was years ago. He has size and had an insane +/- this post season, but 6 years and 6m? For MAYBE 60 points? Very, very risky with his injury history.

It's about the structure of the team and what you think he can do here. There would be a lot of risk, but potentially every answer we have been *****ing about for a while now. Do you take it? I don't know, this is why being a GM is a tougher job than just posting numbers derived from capgeek and having no responsibility when they go wrong.

For me there are worse things than paying him big money, I see that fit. Not going to pretend it isn't a risk.