Need some Size: Bickell or Horton or Both

[Octopus]

The Wings are moving to the East and it definitely is a more physical division. They have too many pint sized forwards and need to some monsters who can create space for them. Brunner, Nyquist, Tatar will have careers in the NHL, but I think that a team that has them all in that division would be worn down in a playoff series. We need to trade in one or two in for players like Bickell and Horton. Does Holland take a serious run at them and potentially over-pay? Thoughts?

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[Unfriendly Ghost]

I pray the Wings are able to stay away from Bickel.

Do not want. Donotwantdonotwantdonotwant.

Also, for the tenth time, I don't think the East is harder to play in. You have to remember, the Wings are coming from the clutch and grab defensive system West. The East might throw more hits and fight more, but you don't have as many guys flat out water skiing on your back. It might end up being easier overall for Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

 

[GoAwayDanCleary]

Once again, the East isn't any more physical than the West and I'd argue that it is actually less.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

The West features more two way players in my opinion. They are also home to some of the most massive two-way centers. I think Zetterberg and Datsyuk are going to enjoy life in the east a lot more.

 

[Frk It]

Weiss

 

[DRWCountryClub]

What is this more physical stuff I keep hearing?

You're trying to tell me teams like the Habs, Sabres, Sens, Bolts, and Panthers are going to be more physical and tighter checking than St. Louis, Nashville, and Chicago?

Sure, some of those teams are higher in hits than the teams in our division now, but the eye test when watching has always led me to believe the three teams in the Central are much tighter checking and harder to play against.

Hell, Montreal finished second and nobody would consider them to be an overly physical team. They've had some success in the post season too, recently.

Maybe I'm the only one that's not worried about how physical the East will be, because I've always thought the West was much more physically demanding and tougher.

*Edit, guess I'm not the only one.

 

[Octopus]

Once again, the East isn't any more physical than the West and I'd argue that it is actually less.

Babcock commented on a conversation with MacLean, ex Wing Co-Coach and current Sens coach, and he confirmed for Babcock its a bigger division to play in. Remember that the goal is to beat teams like the Bruins "deep" in the playoffs, not Florida who won't make the playoffs. Toronto is a much better team as well, and size is part of their strength and they'll go deeper in years to come. We don't need Brunner, Tatar and Nyquist. At least one has to go in favor of a sizeable grinder who can pot 15-20 goals.

 

[pdd]

I wouldn't be stunned to see Dats and Z both back over 90 points next year in the Easy East.

Fighting more and throwing a few big hits are NOT the same as constant aggressive physical contact and tight defense.

The first part is the East, the second part is the West. That's why Dion Phaneuf looks so much better in the East; his play style fits in and his defensive miscues aren't nearly as bad when compared to the average defenseman. Comparatively, a guy like Jonathan Ericsson looks good in the West because he is a very solid defensive defenseman who can out-muscle just about anyone.

I would imagine Kronwall is going to get a ton of Norris hype next season.

 

[pdd]

Babcock commented on a conversation with MacLean, ex Wing Co-Coach and current Sens coach, and he confirmed for Babcock its a bigger division to play in. Remember that the goal is to beat teams like the Bruins "deep" in the playoffs, not Florida who won't make the playoffs. Toronto is a much better team as well, and size is part of their strength and they'll go deeper in years to come. We don't need Brunner, Tatar and Nyquist. At least one has to go in favor of a sizeable grinder who can pot 15-20 goals.

Size and physical play are nice to have, but ultimately they are accessories and not necessities when building a Cup winner. When building a Cup-winning team, there are three required ingredients:

1. Center depth/skill (offensively and defensively)
2. Defensive depth/skill (offensively and defensively)
3. Good/great goaltending

If you have all three of those ingredients, you can surround them with skill, grit, whatever you feel increases your chances the most.

If you are missing an ingredient, you need to find a way to either fill the hole, or compensate for it. For example, in 2010 Chicago won with Patrick Sharp at center on the second line. This year Sharp has been on LW, and guys like Handzus and Kruger have been centering the second line. But even with Sharp on the wing, they make up for the gap. Because they have strong scoring in Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Bickell, and Saad, as well as the other wingers. Plus guys like Handzus, Sharp and Hossa bring a solid defensive game as well.

In 1986 and 1993, Montreal won the Cup without good offensive depth at center. This was countered by strong defensive play and an elite goaltender. New Jersey pulled off the same trick in 1995. Carolina was missing the defense aspect in 2006, but was very strong in terms of defensive forwards and their goaltender had an excellent (and Conn Smythe winning) run. Those four teams are the only ones since 1980 to win the Cup without possessing all three aspects I listed above.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I like Bickell. But he's 15 goal type who will probably make $4.5M a year in his next contract.
I don't think we want to overpay for that.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Weiss

A worse idea than the Bickell idea.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Size and physical play are nice to have, but ultimately they are accessories and not necessities when building a Cup winner. When building a Cup-winning team, there are three required ingredients:

1. Center depth/skill (offensively and defensively)
2. Defensive depth/skill (offensively and defensively)
3. Good/great goaltending

If you have all three of those ingredients, you can surround them with skill, grit, whatever you feel increases your chances the most.

If you are missing an ingredient, you need to find a way to either fill the hole, or compensate for it. For example, in 2010 Chicago won with Patrick Sharp at center on the second line. This year Sharp has been on LW, and guys like Handzus and Kruger have been centering the second line. But even with Sharp on the wing, they make up for the gap. Because they have strong scoring in Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Bickell, and Saad, as well as the other wingers. Plus guys like Handzus, Sharp and Hossa bring a solid defensive game as well.

In 1986 and 1993, Montreal won the Cup without good offensive depth at center. This was countered by strong defensive play and an elite goaltender. New Jersey pulled off the same trick in 1995. Carolina was missing the defense aspect in 2006, but was very strong in terms of defensive forwards and their goaltender had an excellent (and Conn Smythe winning) run. Those four teams are the only ones since 1980 to win the Cup without possessing all three aspects I listed above.

86 habs had Bobby Smith, Ryan Walter and Guy Carboneau at center
93 Habs had Vinny Damphousse and Kirk Muller and, Denis Savard

 

[Vatican Roulette]

I'd love to sign Bickell, but not at what he'll be asking for.

I honestly see some team throwing 5.5 Million long term at him.

 

[pdd]

86 habs had Bobby Smith, Ryan Walter and Guy Carboneau at center

Smith provided solid offense, but he was their only center over 60 points. Detroit that season missed the playoffs because Steve Yzerman missed 29 games and only ended up scoring 42 points. But Detroit still had a 60+ point center in Kelly Kisio. Also, Walter was just recovering from injury and spent his handful of playoff games as the fourth-line left-winger.

That's how weak Montreal's centers were offensively.

93 Habs had Vinny Damphousse and Kirk Muller and, Denis Savard

Damphousse and Muller played on the same line, so it's kind of difficult to use BOTH to illustrate center depth. Lebeau was the second line center, and scored 80 points in the regular season which would be good now but was *meh* then. During the regular season, Savard (only 50 points) was the 3C and Carbonneau the 4C, but for the playoffs Savard was moved to the wing, with Carbonneau taking the 3C spot and Paul Dipietro taking over as 4C. Savard and Lebeau were both injured in the playoffs, and Dipietro ended up playing as the 2C.

 

[Frk It]

I like Bickell. But he's 15 goal type who will probably make $4.5M a year in his next contract.
I don't think we want to overpay for that.

A worse idea than the Bickell idea.

Sounds like a better idea than paying 4.5 million for a 6'4" Dan Cleary.

 

[odin1981]

Why waste cap space this year? I mean seriously I don't get it. I can understand a 1-2 year bridge contract that is 4 mill or less. Noone of worth is going to get bought out till next year and next year's fa is 10x the level that this year's is. Sure some of the individuals will get signed and so forth but I cannot understand the love affair with this years crop. Hell the only decent player horton is gonna make out like a bandit this year (multi year 6+ million term).

There is a reason we went after sutter last year. He is worth breaking the bank for. Unfortuanatley it didn't work out. But all the names this year are in no way shape or form worth screwing with our cap long term.

 

[Bench]

6'4" Dan Cleary.

 

[pdd]

Sounds like a better idea than paying 4.5 million for a 6'4" Dan Cleary.

I'm pretty sure you have to pay Six Million to get that.

He wouldn't only be bigger, though. He'd be stronger and faster.

 

[Frk It]

Size and physical play are nice to have, but ultimately they are accessories and not necessities when building a Cup winner. When building a Cup-winning team, there are three required ingredients:

1. Center depth/skill (offensively and defensively)
2. Defensive depth/skill (offensively and defensively)
3. Good/great goaltending

I wouldn't say there is an exact science to what it takes to win a Cup. I don't think it's something that is quantifiable with steps, or measured in ingredients.

For example you don't mention coaching or chemistry. I'd say those are pretty key components to winning a Cup.

Again I don't think there is a set criteria.
Just off the top of my head when I think of the Blackhawks team that won a couple years ago, or even the won that is ahead in the Finals this year, I think they have only slightly above average goaltending.

 

[Kyleftlx]

I would love to see Horton in Detroit, he's been a monster in the playoffs this year! I would say the big 4 in terms of forward targets would be Bickell / Horton / Stalberg / Clarkson. Horton and Clarkson both get solid amount of PP time, and score a lot on the powerplay... Bickell and Stalberg don't seem to really get that type of powerplay time. I'm not sure if that's an indicator of their skillset, or if Chicago is just really that deep that they are passed up for other guys.

I also would like Horton/Clarkson because they're familiar to the East, and while I don't think it'd be a huge deal which player Detroit were to pick up of the four guys, I think it can't be a disadvantage that they're already eastern conference players.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

East will be easier than the west. No need for Bergenheim 2.0, and Horton'll be too expensive. Weiss or no one, imo.

 

[Shoalzie]

Horton is the ideal target but he'll cost $5-6 million and he's got a lot of wear on the tires...especially with a couple of cup runs in a few year span. But he's a playoff performer when he's healthy...he can help you win a cup. Bickell is a glorified role player and you wouldn't want him for the salary he'll get in free agency. He's no better than what Brouwer was for the Hawks...definitely not a Andrew Ladd-like player.

 

[Brick Top]

Horton is the ideal target but he'll cost $5-6 million and he's got a lot of wear on the tires...especially with a couple of cup runs in a few year span. But he's a playoff performer when he's healthy...he can help you win a cup. Bickell is a glorified role player and you wouldn't want him for the salary he'll get in free agency. He's no better than what Brouwer was for the Hawks...definitely not a Andrew Ladd-like player.

Wear on the tires? He's had 2 deep playoff runs in his career, and no other appearances. Any Wing who's been on the roster (like Flip) as long as Horton has been in the NHL has far more PO games played. I'm thinking his tires are just fine.

 

[Ishad]

Don't know why either would leave their respective teams short of an overpayment. Don't want to overpay for either.

 

[Heaton]

Don't know why either would leave their respective teams short of an overpayment. Don't want to overpay for either.

The cap is going down, their current teams may not be able to afford them.