Need some Size: Bickell or Horton or Both
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I want no part of Bickell, he is a byproduct of playing with vastly superior players. He is going to be the next Ville Leino, getting a huge and undeserved contract on that back of one good playoff run.
Yeah, the undersized Blackhawks are having a really hard time dealing with the big bad Bruins´extremely physical play 
Seriously, LA Kings and St Louis Blues are THE most physical teams in the league.
Thus, we should be focusing on the quality, and not size of the players.
Seriously, LA Kings and St Louis Blues are THE most physical teams in the league.
Thus, we should be focusing on the quality, and not size of the players.
sureWhyNot
Registered User
I am so sick of hearing ppl on here saying the east isn't more physical. It is. And it isn't close. 6 GM's were polled and while they all agreed the west was more skilled, and generally better, when it comes to physicality, it isn't close:
"However, there was no debate on which conference is more physical -- the Eastern Conference is by a landslide"
Then there is this. Babcock talking about a discussion he had with former asst coach, and now head coach Paul Maclean:
"When asked if Detroit will have to change their style of play in the East, coach Mike Babcock said, "Until I’ve been in it for a while, I won’t know the answer to that. I’ve talked to Paul MacLean, (former Wings assistant coach, now head coach of the Ottawa Senators) and asked him the same question.â€
“I wont know until I've been in there
For a while but I spole with Paul and He says it's more physically demanding right from the get-go. As far as fighting and physicality, but he told me he did what he always did, so, that’s what we’re going to do. We will be prepared.â€
So PLEASE stop saying that the east isn't more physical. IT IS.
"However, there was no debate on which conference is more physical -- the Eastern Conference is by a landslide"
Then there is this. Babcock talking about a discussion he had with former asst coach, and now head coach Paul Maclean:
"When asked if Detroit will have to change their style of play in the East, coach Mike Babcock said, "Until I’ve been in it for a while, I won’t know the answer to that. I’ve talked to Paul MacLean, (former Wings assistant coach, now head coach of the Ottawa Senators) and asked him the same question.â€
“I wont know until I've been in there
For a while but I spole with Paul and He says it's more physically demanding right from the get-go. As far as fighting and physicality, but he told me he did what he always did, so, that’s what we’re going to do. We will be prepared.â€
So PLEASE stop saying that the east isn't more physical. IT IS.
What I listed were "roster components". When building a team you don't build it and say "oh man, we're going to out-coach them tonight!"
Which qualifies under "good". Those Hawks could get away with it in 2010 because they were completely stacked at every other position. This year I don't know about you, but I think Crawford has been one of the ten best goalies in the league.
Hckytwn
Don't do it Kenny...
Honestly, as fans I think we should let go of the "we want X, but not Y" mentality this off-season.
Most of us agree we need a strong second-tier forward. It could be Weiss, Bickell, Horton, Clarkson, Clowe, or a handful of other players. None of them are perfect, each has their specific risks. But I think the key here isn't necessarily which one of them we land, but what we pay for them.
With the cap cut and all the buyouts, there's going to more supply than demand in the free agent market. Deals will definitely be out there... lets just hope Holland can land one or two.
Most of us agree we need a strong second-tier forward. It could be Weiss, Bickell, Horton, Clarkson, Clowe, or a handful of other players. None of them are perfect, each has their specific risks. But I think the key here isn't necessarily which one of them we land, but what we pay for them.
With the cap cut and all the buyouts, there's going to more supply than demand in the free agent market. Deals will definitely be out there... lets just hope Holland can land one or two.
I had wanted Bickell but after the Stanley Cup finals and seeing how he mostly floated and backed away when he was engaged by Chara makes me think he's another Franzen type. No thanks. Horton on the other hand is a beast, he is a legitimate power forward but his injuries concern me. I would love to see either Horton or Clarkson signed, I would settle for Iginla at a shorter contract term and I have little use for Bickell unless he comes cheap (and he won't). Clowe would work as well but he's have to be real cheap.
For the redwings they need a lot of help, get rid of Samulssen, Eaves. Sign either Salberg, Bickell (He's most likely returning to the hawks) Horton, Clowe. They need some new 3rd/4th liners and another 2nd liner, Bertuzzi is not getting much younger, Samulssen is terrible, Eaves is terrible.
-And they need to sign a top 6 defensemen, maybe Andrew Ference, Thomas Kaberle.
-And they need to sign a top 6 defensemen, maybe Andrew Ference, Thomas Kaberle.
norrisnick
The best...
- Apr 14, 2005
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Sure, but the 'toughness' that prevails in the East is the pointless toughness. It's the after the whistles toughness not the between the whistles toughness.
No it isn't. You have legitimate first line power forwards like Lucic and Chris Neil to name a few, and other guys who are 3rd and fourth liners who play mean and have some skills. It's not all guys like Orr and others. The East has more legitimate power forward types and their games are more intense. I would think it probably has to do with lighter travel, more rivalries due to geography etc. 5 of the Original 6 teams are in the East and it's all the same time zone. Games in the East are much more intense.
Hckytwn
Don't do it Kenny...
Considering their 3rd/4th lines were a primary reason they beat the Ducks and almost beat the Cup Champs, not sure why they need "new 3rd/4th liners". Also, if Helm comes back, those lines only get better.
Also Sammy is getting a buyout, Eaves is actually a solid player and Bert is on the last year of his contract, but still adds a lot of leadership. I don't see any huge issues there. Conversely, I'm not sure Ference or Kaberle really add much to this team... unlike a Horton, Bickell, Clowe or Clarkson--at the right price.
SportsballChic
Registered User
Quotes because that might actually be the first time someone not related to Thomas Kaberle has ever said "need" and "Thomas Kaberle" into a sentence together.
Absolutely do not want, not for a bottle of gatoraid and some tape rolls. No.
I'm fine with signing either Horton or Clowe for a reasonable price. I want no part of Bickell, I think he's going to be overpaid by a small team looking for a vet to step up their play. I don't want Clarkson either because he isn't a point producer and belongs on the 2nd or 3rd line. His offensive capabilities don't fit on this team and the offensive system.
That first quote is from almost 3 years ago, and its only the opinion of 6 GM's Kevin Weekes and Craig Button.
The other is just the opinion of Paul Maclean and as he said, he did what he always did. He fielded a team that valued skill over size and did just fine.
The difference in physical play between the 2 conferences is minimal, and as evidenced by the scoring races there appears to be more room for offensive players in the east.
I expect Datsyuk and Zetterberg to have up years scoring wise, and I expect a few teams to start scratching their goons when they play the Wings.
Well lets see, Cleary is most likely gone, Ian White is gone, Filuppla is most likely gone, and Samullsen is hopefully gone.
-Eaves, is not that good after is 1 or so injury the guy cant skate for nothing, i have seen beer league hockey players skate better. 34 GP. 2 (G)- 6 (A), the Wings can find a better 4th liner that can play the physical role and still put up better numbers.
-Samulssen, He did nothing, He is a joke.
-Cleary can be affective sometimes, but the Wings can find a better 3rd liner.
-Helm's return will help them a lot.
- Ian White, didn't do much. But the Wings should look into signing another top 6 D.
-Bertuzzi, will be gone after next season. That leaves the Wings with no big body's.
- Filuppla's lose will actually hurt the RedWings badly.
- Jonathan Ericsson, should be a bottom 6 defensemen, On anyother NHL team he would fight hard to make a spot, I never seen a Defensemen that falls as much as him, And his ankles bend more then an enforcer.
____________________
So in my opinion, The redwings will have to sign either, Stalberg till fill Cleary's role, or Brendan Morrow.
- They need to sign either Horton, Clowe, Bickell to fill in Bertuzzi's role.
-They need another player to fill Filuppla's role, maybe throw Briere on there.
- They need someone to fill in Samullsen, Eaves role maybe someone like Pascal Dupuis, or Tyler Bozak.
- They need someone to fill in Ian Whites role (Which was nothing) but since they have Brendan Smith, Dekyser, Lashoff, they might not even sign a Defensemen but there best option could be, Ference, Kablere. Kaberle could be a healthy scratch and be the 7th defensemen, but the guy put up 3 points in 10 games this season. in 2011-12 he put up 22 points in 43 games.
____________________________________
So here is 4 guys they really need and should take a grab at,
-Bryan Bickell. If he doesn't re-sign with the Hawks.
-Nathan Horton, 2nd line winger
-Ryane Clowe, 3rd line power forward.
-Now for a 4th liner to add points, energy, physical play. Max Lapierre, Colby Armstrong, David Clarkson.
Right after we successfully petition the league to do away with the salary cap maybe.Bickell is in line for a big raise, based on his playoff performance. I'd guess probably more than (2.5 Million)
Horton will also get a sizeable raise based on his playoffs (5.5-6 million)
Clowe made 3.6 last season and at only 30 will likely get a small raise despite not having that great of a year (4 Million)
Lapierre doesn't fit as he wants to be a 3rd line center and we already have 5 NHL centers as it is. Salary wise he'd be an ok pick-up though
How can you suggest Colby Armstrong when you think Eaves is worse than a Beer League player. Eaves had as many pts last year as Armstrong has in the last 2 years combined. He out hit Armstrong last year as well while playing fewer games. Other than being bigger I'm not sure where Armstrong is a better player than Eaves.
David Clarkson on the 4th line? the guy will likely get a payday in the 5 million range, maybe even more considering the weak FA market.
Signing 4 of those guys could cost the Wings as much as 17 million dollars when they only have 10 million available. They'd have to buyout Datsyuk or Zetterberg to be able to afford those guys.
I find games in the East quite boring myself. Also teams like LA, St. Louis, Anaheim are pretty physical. Chris Neal is not a 1st liner.
Chris Neil can play on any line but he did play on the first line in the playoffs that's for sure.
Let's see if they chose skill over size.
Forwards
Chris Neil
Matt Kassian
Latandresse
All tough forwards, let's go to defense:
Jared Cowen
Marc Methot
Eric Gryba
Pretty gritty team, and it's not even the toughest, showing once again how physical the East really is.
Bickell is in line for a big raise, based on his playoff performance. I'd guess probably more than (2.5 Million)
Horton will also get a sizeable raise based on his playoffs (5.5-6 million)
Clowe made 3.6 last season and at only 30 will likely get a small raise despite not having that great of a year (4 Million)
Lapierre doesn't fit as he wants to be a 3rd line center and we already have 5 NHL centers as it is. Salary wise he'd be an ok pick-up though
How can you suggest Colby Armstrong when you think Eaves is worse than a Beer League player. Eaves had as many pts last year as Armstrong has in the last 2 years combined. He out hit Armstrong last year as well while playing fewer games. Other than being bigger I'm not sure where Armstrong is a better player than Eaves.
David Clarkson on the 4th line? the guy will likely get a payday in the 5 million range, maybe even more considering the weak FA market.
Signing 4 of those guys could cost the Wings as much as 17 million dollars when they only have 10 million available. They'd have to buyout Datsyuk or Zetterberg to be able to afford those guys.
I didn't say sign all of them...
-The loss of Mikael Samuelsson (3.0 mil)
- Ian White (A little more then 2.6 millon)
- Dan Cleary (2.8 mil)
- Valtteri Filppula ( A little more then 3 mil)
-if they lose Patrick Eaves, (1.2 mil)
____________________
I think the max salary is 70.2?
If they lose the following players i listed that would gain them, 12.6 million dollars.
-So with there Current roster everything is about $66,465,000 i believe, so losing those players would bring it down to $66,464,987, they would have some room for signings.
- if they sign Clowe, thats about 3.6 million.
- If they sign Horton thats about 4.0 million.
- if they sign Stalberg thats cheap he was under 1 million.
- if they sign Ference, thats about 2.0-2.5 million.
____________________________
So lets say they sign Clowe, Stalberg, and Ference. That would be about 7.1 million. Like i said if they lose the following players i listed, thats 12.6 million so they would still have about 5.5 million left and still be under the cap space.
Unfriendly Ghost
Kasper
The thing about the East is even if it's more physical, it's also more up-and-down the ice. There's less congestion in the neutral zone, and there's less chip and chase. It's going to be easier for Detroit to play Red Wing Hockey than it's been in a long time.
The other thing is, maybe the East is more physical as a conference. But the East as a conference is not much more physical than the West's playoff teams have been over the years, and the Wings have been fine in that situation. A lot of those SJ/Anaheim/Nashville teams would have been considered physical, tough teams if they were in the East. It's not like the Wings are walking into an environment they've never been in or never succeeded in.
and guess what? Detroit never needed an enforcer or an infusion of huge players to deal with that before. They don't need it now either.
The other thing is, maybe the East is more physical as a conference. But the East as a conference is not much more physical than the West's playoff teams have been over the years, and the Wings have been fine in that situation. A lot of those SJ/Anaheim/Nashville teams would have been considered physical, tough teams if they were in the East. It's not like the Wings are walking into an environment they've never been in or never succeeded in.
and guess what? Detroit never needed an enforcer or an infusion of huge players to deal with that before. They don't need it now either.
The max salary for next season is 64.3 Million and the Wings after buying out Sammy will have 13 million in space to re-sign Brunner, Kindl, Nyquist, Smith, and Andersson. Those players will probably eat up between 6 and 7 million on the low end leaving around 6 million for additions to the roster.
We just don't have the cap space to be making those kind of moves.
SportsballChic
Registered User
Gotta catch our guys before they can rough em up right? I mean, I don't lie awake at night thinking "Oh no, next year we have to face Colton Orr" or anything.
It'll be fine; it might even be great for us like you said. I dunno if they have nearly the kind of skating/defense/goalies we did in the west over here. We might shock some people; sounds like fun
Why do people resort to these strawman arguments? No one is saying they need an enforcer, and no one is saying they need to scrap the team and start over. What some of us are saying is that the team could use a few players with some size, or at least willing to mix it up, to get their star players the puck, simple. I love when the subject of the Wings signing bigger players comes up, people like yourself turn it into an enforcer argument. We are all in agreement that one dimensional enforcers are going the way of the dinosaur.
Yes, they do. They can make the cap space if they wanted to. Also it is becoming quite clear that a lot of teams are struggling to get under the cap, which should mean with buy outs and salary dumping the this summer should be more than active. No reason at all for the Wings to sit on their hands
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