Ncaa Vs Chl

[eye]

eye, the numbers ARE DOWN THIS year compared to last year and the year before that, period! As for Ontario, they may have the same numbers as they did in 97 BUT more than half are going to sub-par programs and would not have made it to the NCAA if these teams did not exist! If the same talent level was available in Ontario this year as there was in 97 then you would easily have seen more than 100 players recruited from that region. Are you trying to tell me that a Canisius is on par with a Miami or heck even an Alaska Fairbanks? Face reality!

As for our wager, you are obviously not as confident as I am, and that is understandable because I sure the heck would not want to put money down on Vanek either!

Carter will be the superior player!

Going by your analogy if the NHL was still 6 teams there would only be about 65 Canadians playing in the NHL today. That's going by the 52% figure. This debate was about you saying that there were far less Canadians playing in the NCAA and that the total was on the decline each year. I prove that to be incorrect and now you throw in (put your spin) the fact that some Canadians are going to lesser programs. That wasn't the debate. As for Wizard, you continue to add no substance to this thread but make for a good echo or puppit. Thanks for motivating me to do some homework though.

Facts; From Heisenberg's own sites.

1997 - 115 players recruited from north of the border to play NCAA hockey.
1998 - 118 """"""
1999 - 127 """"""
2000 - 127 """""
2004 - 145 and still counting and these totals do not include successful walk ons that often get scholarship or financial aid once they make the team.

So VOB, Canadian content has gone up by over 38% in the last 7 years, a far cry from your doom and gloom statements wouldn't you say? As for our bet, I told you I don't gamble money. Why can't you just respect that? It has nothing to do with being confident or not. It's difficult to measure players when they play 2 totally different styles. I can both doing very well and I can see both being a big flop falling far short of expectations. Carter tends to play on the perimeter and that will show up even more when he starts playing with the heavyweights.

As for Greyhounds in Canadian University hockey how about naming more than 3 or 4 in the last 5 years that have played at least 1 full season for the Greyhounds and if you decide to count every player that plays then use every player to determine %'s as well. There have been a lot more Greyhounds graduate or move on to other teams that you never used in your 1/3rd grads going to play University comment. In fact most grads seem to end up in the UHL, CHL or ECHL in the last 5 years but Wizard will have everyone believe that the CHL is the only choice and that Kessel is a coward for what IMO is a smarter move for a 5'9" very slight sized forward.

 

[MN_Gopher]

I'll take ur bet.

 

[VOB]

Going by your analogy if the NHL was still 6 teams there would only be about 65 Canadians playing in the NHL today. That's going by the 52% figure. This debate was about you saying that there were far less Canadians playing in the NCAA and that the total was on the decline each year. I prove that to be incorrect and now you throw in (put your spin) the fact that some Canadians are going to lesser programs. That wasn't the debate. As for Wizard, you continue to add no substance to this thread but make for a good echo or puppit. Thanks for motivating me to do some homework though.

Facts; From Heisenberg's own sites.

1997 - 115 players recruited from north of the border to play NCAA hockey.
1998 - 118 """"""
1999 - 127 """"""
2000 - 127 """""
2004 - 145 and still counting and these totals do not include successful walk ons that often get scholarship or financial aid once they make the team.

So VOB, Canadian content has gone up by over 38% in the last 7 years, a far cry from your doom and gloom statements wouldn't you say? As for our bet, I told you I don't gamble money. Why can't you just respect that? It has nothing to do with being confident or not. It's difficult to measure players when they play 2 totally different styles. I can both doing very well and I can see both being a big flop falling far short of expectations. Carter tends to play on the perimeter and that will show up even more when he starts playing with the heavyweights.

As for Greyhounds in Canadian University hockey how about naming more than 3 or 4 in the last 5 years that have played at least 1 full season for the Greyhounds and if you decide to count every player that plays then use every player to determine %'s as well. There have been a lot more Greyhounds graduate or move on to other teams that you never used in your 1/3rd grads going to play University comment. In fact most grads seem to end up in the UHL, CHL or ECHL in the last 5 years but Wizard will have everyone believe that the CHL is the only choice and that Kessel is a coward for what IMO is a smarter move for a 5'9" very slight sized forward.

eye, your counting skills leave much to be desired. From Heisenberg's own site in 2000 there were 159 players from Canada, when this was cross referenced with the CJHL website, the number increased to 162.

In 2001 167 players
In 2002 165 players
In 2003 158 players
In 2004 146 players (including Americans playing in Canada!)

A 15% decline in the last 4 years in REAL NUMBERS! Your mythical late summer signing period is non existant so don't hope for a dramatic increase!

If the NHL contracted to 6 teams then yes there would only be 65-75 Canadians in the NHL!

I am now certain that you have never seen Carter play because he is anything but a perimeter player (that is Vanek's forte eye!)!

As for the Hounds in the CIS, all the players I mentioned played a full season or more for them!

 

[VOB]

I'll take ur bet.

All right Gopher!! Send me a private message, your email and then we will chat about the details

 

[eye]

We have very little common ground to work with. At least we kind of agree on Kessell. You are getting flustered though and have a real hard time admitting when your wrong.

1997 - 115 players recruited from north of the border for NCAA D1 hockey - agreed?
2000 - 145 players (I recounted from Heisenberg's site)
2004 - I'll use your figure of 146 players recruited form north of the border for NCAA D1 hockey.

An increase of 31 playes in the last 7 years - agreed? Yes there are minor fluctuations but please admit when your wrong. Again this years total doesn't even include walk ons or late summer signings which means the total is even higher or at least a 40% increase from 7 years ago.

I've seen Carter live twice and on TV several times and admit that I am influenced by my buddies opinion of Carter which is that he doesn't initiate body contact and gets rid of the puck when he senses contact is coming. Very good skills, skates very well and has good size and reach. If he can adjust and improve his intensity he has a shot. I'm with MN Gopher though but only for bragging rights.

Now back to your errors on SSM Greyhounds and I will use the names you provided and claimed graduated after playing at least a full season for the Greyhounds;

Theobold - I'll give you this one.
Held - graduated from London and played most of his career in Kitchener. 31GP for SSM
Richards- I'll give you another one - that's 2.
Jones - 19 GP for Brock this past year - I'll give you 3.
Martin - graduated from Erie and played 12 games for U of Waterloo
Fox - played only 9 games for U of Regina - common
Day - where is he?
Hedburg - played only 26 games for SSM.
Dmytruk - hasn't played yet and played only 29 games for SSM so I give you 3 or 4 out of how many? Less than the 20% I indicated early in this thread.

 

[stockwizard*]

Wizard will have everyone believe that the CHL is the only choice and that Kessel is a coward for what IMO is a smarter move for a 5'9" very slight sized forward.

I didn't realise just how slight Kessel is. Perhaps you're right.
Major Junior may be too tough a league for him.

 

[eye]

I didn't realise just how slight Kessel is. Perhaps you're right.
Major Junior may be too tough a league for him.

Is sarcasm the most you can offer in terms of substance to your stance? Other than the fact fighting is not tolerated and is actually considered a point of weakness rather than grit or strength by NCAA standards - the NCAA is every bit as physical as any CHL games that I have gone to.

 

[MikeC44]

Now back to your errors on SSM Greyhounds and I will use the names you provided and claimed graduated after playing at least a full season for the Greyhounds;

Theobold - I'll give you this one.
Held - graduated from London and played most of his career in Kitchener. 31GP for SSM
Richards- I'll give you another one - that's 2.
Jones - 19 GP for Brock this past year - I'll give you 3.
Martin - graduated from Erie and played 12 games for U of Waterloo
Fox - played only 9 games for U of Regina - common
Day - where is he?
Hedburg - played only 26 games for SSM.
Dmytruk - hasn't played yet and played only 29 games for SSM so I give you 3 or 4 out of how many? Less than the 20% I indicated early in this thread.

Let me do the Halifax Mooseheads, starting with the 98-99 season.

98/99 roster
Nagy - NHL
Jason Troini - Dalhousie University
Tanguay - NHL
Brandon Reid - NHL/AHL
Sam Seguin - Ottawa U
Alex Mathiru - AHL
Carlyle Lewis - AHL
Fred Belanger - Dahousie U
Jasmin Gelinas - Dalhousie U
Mauro DiPaulo - Concordia U
M-A Binette - Unsure... probably semi-pro in Quebec
Ali MacEachern - UPEI
Jeff Sullivan - ECHL/AHL
Brandon Bendict - Acadia U
Billy Manley - Saint Mary's U
Mathieu Paul - UHL/CHL
Alex Johnstone - AHL/ECHL
PJ Lynch - Lethbridge U
David McCutcheon - U de Moncton
Alexei Volkov - Russia Pro
Pascal Leclaire - AHL/NHL
Tyler Reid - Acadia U

99-00 roster (no repeats)
Abid - NHL/AHL
Dusablon - NHL/AHL/ECHL
Andrei Shefer - Russia Pro
Jonathan St.Louis - low minor pro
Jules-Edy Laraque - retired, is Police Officer
Joe DiPenta - AHL/NHL
Ryan Flinn - AHL/NHL
Robbie Sutherland - Acadia U
Gary Zinck - Dalhousie U
Nick Greenough - AHL/ECHL
Darrell Jarrett - Dalhousie U
Jason King - NHL/AHL
Bruce Gillis - St Thomas U
Jonathan Boone - St Thomas U
Hugo Lehoux - Lakehead U
Jonathan Jolette - unsure, just graduated from junior. CIS unlikely.

00-01 roster (no repeats)
Sebastien Laprise - Quebec semi-pro
Sergei Klyazmin - AHL (knee injuries 2 years in a row)
Louis Mandeville - UQTR
Derrick Kent - just graduated, unsure. CIS likely
Giulio Scandella - Italy pro
Conor McGuire - unsure
AJ MacLean - Lethbridge U
Jules Saulnier - U de Moncton
Ryan MacPherson - unsure
Milan Jurcina - AHL
Ryan White - STFX
Randy Upshall - just graduated rumoured to be going to Saint Mary's U
Dany Dallaire - UQTR
Michael Couch - just graduated, unsure.

01-02 (no repeats)
JF Cyr - just graduated, unsure. CIS about 50/50%.
LP Lessard - U de Moncton
Pat Gilbert - U de Moncton
Bobby Clarke - just graduated, unsure
JM Boisvert - UNB
Jordie Preston - Windsor U

03-03 (no repeats)
Stuart MacRae - STFX
Thatcher Bell - St Thomas U
Steve Villeneuve - just graduated, unsure. CIS 50/50%
George Davis - signed by Anaheim... most likely ECHL to start.
Guillaume Lavallee - just graduated, unsure

 

[stockwizard*]

Is sarcasm the most you can offer in terms of substance to your stance? Other than the fact fighting is not tolerated and is actually considered a point of weakness rather than grit or strength by NCAA standards - the NCAA is every bit as physical as any CHL games that I have gone to.

Maybe, but there is not as much of an intimidation factor in NCAA.

Wouldn't you think introducing the kids to some fighting at this age would be a positive since there is fighting in the NHL?
That is, as long as they are still able to work on their individual skills.

 

[Funkymoses]

You of course know all about this since Michigan loses one or two good players ever year, just like they will lose Montoya this year.

whoops. anyway, return to your pointless flaming.

 

[eye]

Maybe, but there is not as much of an intimidation factor in NCAA.

Wouldn't you think introducing the kids to some fighting at this age would be a positive since there is fighting in the NHL?
That is, as long as they are still able to work on their individual skills.

Finally, a reasonable post and a reasonable question. I don't think players like Kessel who would never fight in the CHL or NHL if he ever makes it would benefit any differently. His game is all about speed and scoring and he has a lot of other things he needs to work on to improve his game. About 90% of all CHL fights that I have seen over the years is between 2 enforcer types and rarely effects 90% of the other players who play intimidation free. Just my 2 cents on it. Feel free to disagree.

 

[VOB]

We have very little common ground to work with. At least we kind of agree on Kessell. You are getting flustered though and have a real hard time admitting when your wrong.

1997 - 115 players recruited from north of the border for NCAA D1 hockey - agreed?
2000 - 145 players (I recounted from Heisenberg's site)
2004 - I'll use your figure of 146 players recruited form north of the border for NCAA D1 hockey.

An increase of 31 playes in the last 7 years - agreed? Yes there are minor fluctuations but please admit when your wrong. Again this years total doesn't even include walk ons or late summer signings which means the total is even higher or at least a 40% increase from 7 years ago.

I've seen Carter live twice and on TV several times and admit that I am influenced by my buddies opinion of Carter which is that he doesn't initiate body contact and gets rid of the puck when he senses contact is coming. Very good skills, skates very well and has good size and reach. If he can adjust and improve his intensity he has a shot. I'm with MN Gopher though but only for bragging rights.

Now back to your errors on SSM Greyhounds and I will use the names you provided and claimed graduated after playing at least a full season for the Greyhounds;

Theobold - I'll give you this one.
Held - graduated from London and played most of his career in Kitchener. 31GP for SSM
Richards- I'll give you another one - that's 2.
Jones - 19 GP for Brock this past year - I'll give you 3.
Martin - graduated from Erie and played 12 games for U of Waterloo
Fox - played only 9 games for U of Regina - common
Day - where is he?
Hedburg - played only 26 games for SSM.
Dmytruk - hasn't played yet and played only 29 games for SSM so I give you 3 or 4 out of how many? Less than the 20% I indicated early in this thread.

eye, in 1997 there were aproximatly 41 D-teams. Those 41 teams recruitd 115 players (in that we are in agreement), which average to 2.8 players per team. In 2000, there were 58 D- teams. If the average number of Canadians recruited per team were to remain constant, then 163 players should have been recruited, yet only 147 were. In 2001 and 2002, the number of Canadians rebounded to their traditional averages in the 90's and saw 167 and 165 players respectfully recruited into the NCAA. In 2003 the numbers began to drop once again and 2004 saw only 134 or 146 (CJHL website lists 134, Chris' lists 146 so we will go with Chirs' site) players recruited. An increase from 97, yes but a decrease both in real numbers and proportionaly from what we saw in 2001 through 03. For the past three years the numbers have been going down, that is what I have been saying the whole time! Furthermore, many Canadians are being recruited by lesser teams in the lesser conferences. Have the numbers declined drastically, no but as I said before, 2004 marks the lowest percentage of Canadian recruits coming into the NCAA in a very long time (if not ever!) and it is not only the percentages that are down but the actual numbers as well. 2005 is not shaping up to be a very good year for incoming Canadians either. As a few of my recruiting freinds have told me, they are spending less and less time in Canada and the numbers are starting to show it, especially from Ontario.

As for the Hounds who played in college, you will not find Day or Dymtruk on H.I.D.B. website because they do not do a good job in tracking the CIS but both have played a full season for Laurier. Fox has had some personal problems (that I will not share here) but you can expect him to play a full season this fall.

Your buddy has never seen Carter either. One thing that impresses all who see him is his willingness to get his nose dirty. He is a player that will drive hard to the net, battle in the corners and can handle heavy traffic. The exact opposite of Vanek!

As for being wrong, well you have done that a few times (regarding the CHL packages and the "all gophs go to the AHL/NHL when they graduate) but you are unwilling to put your money where your mouth is, as if your buddy MN Goph who I am still waiting to hear from.

 

[eye]

eye, in 1997 there were aproximatly 41 D-teams. Those 41 teams recruitd 115 players (in that we are in agreement), which average to 2.8 players per team. In 2000, there were 58 D- teams. If the average number of Canadians recruited per team were to remain constant, then 163 players should have been recruited, yet only 147 were. In 2001 and 2002, the number of Canadians rebounded to their traditional averages in the 90's and saw 167 and 165 players respectfully recruited into the NCAA. In 2003 the numbers began to drop once again and 2004 saw only 134 or 146 (CJHL website lists 134, Chris' lists 146 so we will go with Chirs' site) players recruited. An increase from 97, yes but a decrease both in real numbers and proportionaly from what we saw in 2001 through 03. For the past three years the numbers have been going down, that is what I have been saying the whole time! Furthermore, many Canadians are being recruited by lesser teams in the lesser conferences. Have the numbers declined drastically, no but as I said before, 2004 marks the lowest percentage of Canadian recruits coming into the NCAA in a very long time (if not ever!) and it is not only the percentages that are down but the actual numbers as well. 2005 is not shaping up to be a very good year for incoming Canadians either. As a few of my recruiting freinds have told me, they are spending less and less time in Canada and the numbers are starting to show it, especially from Ontario.

As for the Hounds who played in college, you will not find Day or Dymtruk on H.I.D.B. website because they do not do a good job in tracking the CIS but both have played a full season for Laurier. Fox has had some personal problems (that I will not share here) but you can expect him to play a full season this fall.

Your buddy has never seen Carter either. One thing that impresses all who see him is his willingness to get his nose dirty. He is a player that will drive hard to the net, battle in the corners and can handle heavy traffic. The exact opposite of Vanek!

As for being wrong, well you have done that a few times (regarding the CHL packages and the "all gophs go to the AHL/NHL when they graduate) but you are unwilling to put your money where your mouth is, as if your buddy MN Goph who I am still waiting to hear from.

You do have a real hard time admitting when you are wrong and will say anything just to have your last say. I was going to post all the Heisenberg links for the last 10 years but you would just put your own spin on it so why waste me time. I admitting to being technically wrong on my GG AHL/NHL statement as I was off by 1 or 2 players. WOW what a headline and I still think my 20% CHL education packages is about right when you count the players that graduate from 55 CHL teams and please no double, triple and quadruple stats for players that have played on several different teams. Like I said only 3 or 4 graduating Greyhounds since 2000. Sure there are more that didn't play hockey or are not listed on the HDB but that's the general conclusion I come up with by doing some basic research. The bottom line is that there are more Canadians and more Ontario players recruited for 2004 into the NCAA than there were in 7 of the last 10 years which is a far cry from your rediculous statement about this being the lowest year in history. Forget about %'s as this has nothing to do with percentages - just how many Canadians still opt for the NCAA and how many still get the opportunity and there has been no decline.

 

[eye]

By the way VOB Justin Day played for Laurier and he played for Owen Sound. Are you confused on your Day's? Wasn't it Jeremy Day that played for the Greyhounds and is travelling between minor pro teams these days? And you were so sure Montoya would leave Michigan. He announced today he will return to U of Michigan.

 

[VOB]

You do have a real hard time admitting when you are wrong and will say anything just to have your last say. I was going to post all the Heisenberg links for the last 10 years but you would just put your own spin on it so why waste me time. I admitting to being technically wrong on my GG AHL/NHL statement as I was off by 1 or 2 players. WOW what a headline and I still think my 20% CHL education packages is about right when you count the players that graduate from 55 CHL teams and please no double, triple and quadruple stats for players that have played on several different teams. Like I said only 3 or 4 graduating Greyhounds since 2000. Sure there are more that didn't play hockey or are not listed on the HDB but that's the general conclusion I come up with by doing some basic research. The bottom line is that there are more Canadians and more Ontario players recruited for 2004 into the NCAA than there were in 7 of the last 10 years which is a far cry from your rediculous statement about this being the lowest year in history. Forget about %'s as this has nothing to do with percentages - just how many Canadians still opt for the NCAA and how many still get the opportunity and there has been no decline.

Lets take this from the top eye!

First you mentioned various numbers that for any given year and have still not responded to my request that you list the names of all the Canadians who received scholarships that were playing in the USHL/NAHL and prep leagues. Were you just making those numbers up? Were you lying?

Second you have a penchant for coming on here and stating things as matter of fact. Case in point, a direct quote from you eyes

"Last time anyone did a study less than 10% of CHL grads actually end up collecting their education packages and actually go back to University. Enough said."

Really? Who did this study, where did you read it? Can you give us a link or did these numbers come from your fuzzy thought process?

You of course never responded to this statement, instead you fired back that once you play a pro game you lose your CHL scholarship package, to which you were wrong once more!

You then flat out made the claim, and I will qoute

"Golden Gophers grads almost all go directly to the AHL or NHL. Can the Greyhounds or Saginaw Spirit claim the same? "

This was easy enough to disprove but oh no, you claim you were misunderstood and that you really meant Gophs who played in the past few years.

Quote
"Almost all GG grads in the last 3 years have gone directly to the AHL or NHL."

Well what about these players eye?
Aaron Miskovich - Quad City Mallards - UHL
Dylan Mills - Quad City Mallards - UHL
Pat O'Leary - Kalamazoo Wings - UHL
Nick Angell - Rockford Ice Hogs - UHL
Erik Wendell- Rockford Ice Hogs - UHL
Adam Hauser - Jackson Bandits -UHL

You of course evade and run from the issue and make the statement that Lucia's recruits will all go to the AHL or NHL. Are you a soothsayer? Can you say with complete certainty that a Peter Kennedy will make the NHL or AHL?

My favorite of course was this

"My math and research shows app. 400 players out of over 1000 NHL contraced players are Canadian playing on 30 NHL teams. which is less than 40%."

No matter how you cut it eye, Canadians have never fallen to such a low proportion in the NHL! You of course were proven dead wrong on this!

You then claim that only six Greyhounds have actually played in the CIS since 2000. Well let me respond once again

Cleon Smith -currently playing for PEI
Passero- -enrolled and played one season for PEI before leaving for the ECHL
Tim Zafiris- cerrently playing for Western Ontario
Brent Theobold-currently playing for Dalhousie
Nick Jones-played one season for Brock University
Josh Bennet-played one season for Western Ontario
Jake Gibson-currently playing for PEI
Billy Browne-currently playing for Dalhousie
Shawn Snider-currently playing for St. FX
Jason Flick-currently playing for PEI
Chris Martin-one season for Waterloo
Derek Fox-currently playing for Regina
Shane Fryia-currently playing for Acadia
Jeff Richards-currently playing for Lakehead
Jon Hedburg-currently playing for York
Jerremy Day-currently playing for Brock
Rob Dymtruk-currently playing for Laurier

Note, all above players listed played a minimum of 20 games for the Hounds (the cutoff to receive a scholarship package is 15 games played in one season-this list does not include players who went on to play, or will play, college hockey in Canada. A player such as Ryan McKay, for instance, will be playing for Lambton college this coming season). These players make up well more than the 10 or 20% of players you previously claimed eyes that went on to the CIS.

You have been badgering me about numbers, and I do admit I should have been more clear (to use a favorite phrase of yours!) when I stated that numbers are well below what they were previously, I should have stated proportionally but, for the millionth time, real numbers ARE DOWN THIS YEAR! 146 recruits in 04 is the lowest total since 98, before the AAC, CHA exapansion.It also represents the lowest percentage of total incoming recruits! Is this a trend? So far for 05, only 30 have been recruited from Canada. True it is still early but around 30% of all the available spots have been given out and at this rate, Canadians can expect to garner any where between 100 to 120 spots. That is way off the average!

Anything else eye?

 

[eye]

First you try to make everyone believe that Canadian Scholarship opportunities in the NCAA are drying up. I prove that to be incorrect so you come on here and muddy the waters to the best of your ability trying to have your last say. Using your figures for 2004 and Heisenbergs for the last 10 years I prove to you that this is one of the best years in terms of #'s of scholly's - financial aid packages being given to players from north of the border but your stubborn can't lose a debate attitude prevents you from admitting it.

You said the 9 Greyhounds all played a full season and now it's what 20 games or more played. How many CHL teams are going to take credit for that stat? 3 or 4 of those players actually graduated from the Greyhounds.

Regarding the GG's, I said "most" and that is true in the past 3 years no matter how you slice it. 3 of the players you mention even played some AHL in their 1st year. I think the point is that whoever said Kessel was a coward for choosing Wisconsin over Saginaw has now had his eyes open. If a player can go to one of the top NCAA programs like a Minnesota or a Michigan they are far better off than playing for a low end team like SSM or Saginaw. I think I'm done.

 

[VOB]

First you try to make everyone believe that Canadian Scholarship opportunities in the NCAA are drying up. I prove that to be incorrect so you come on here and muddy the waters to the best of your ability trying to have your last say. Using your figures for 2004 and Heisenbergs for the last 10 years I prove to you that this is one of the best years in terms of #'s of scholly's - financial aid packages being given to players from north of the border but your stubborn can't lose a debate attitude prevents you from admitting it.

You said the 9 Greyhounds all played a full season and now it's what 20 games or more played. How many CHL teams are going to take credit for that stat? 3 or 4 of those players actually graduated from the Greyhounds.

Regarding the GG's, I said "most" and that is true in the past 3 years no matter how you slice it. 3 of the players you mention even played some AHL in their 1st year. I think the point is that whoever said Kessel was a coward for choosing Wisconsin over Saginaw has now had his eyes open. If a player can go to one of the top NCAA programs like a Minnesota or a Michigan they are far better off than playing for a low end team like SSM or Saginaw. I think I'm done.

Can you please prove it again how 2004 is one of the best years ever for scholarships north of the border when it is the lowest number since 1999? Furthermore many of those recruited were to teams in the Atlantic Conference, a league that only gives 11 scholarships per team, meaning that many of those Canadian players will be paying a pretty penny to play.

What do you mean by "graduated" from the Greyhounds? Many of those players I mentioned did finish their OHL careers with the Greyhounds. You claimed only 6 former Hounds have played in the CIS since 2000, and once again you were proven wrong. As a side note, there were over 200 former OHLers playing in the CIS last year. This does not include the 25-30 who were playing for colleges and the many who went to school but chose not to play. This certainly disproves your silly 10% figure that you gleamed from some non-existant study and that you tried to pass off as a matter of fact!

As for playing for the low-end Hounds, well hey those Hounds have produced far more quality NHL talent than your mighty Gophs!!!

Yeah, I think your done too eyes.

 

[eye]

Can you please prove it again how 2004 is one of the best years ever for scholarships north of the border when it is the lowest number since 1999? Furthermore many of those recruited were to teams in the Atlantic Conference, a league that only gives 11 scholarships per team, meaning that many of those Canadian players will be paying a pretty penny to play.

What do you mean by "graduated" from the Greyhounds? Many of those players I mentioned did finish their OHL careers with the Greyhounds. You claimed only 6 former Hounds have played in the CIS since 2000, and once again you were proven wrong. As a side note, there were over 200 former OHLers playing in the CIS last year. This does not include the 25-30 who were playing for colleges and the many who went to school but chose not to play. This certainly disproves your silly 10% figure that you gleamed from some non-existant study and that you tried to pass off as a matter of fact!

As for playing for the low-end Hounds, well hey those Hounds have produced far more quality NHL talent than your mighty Gophs!!!

Yeah, I think your done too eyes.

For a very smart guy you are one stubborn spin doctor VOB.

2004 NCAA total Canadians are equal to or more than 7 of the last 10 years including 2 of the years since 1999. I have counted and recounted Heisenbergs totals. I'm at a point I don't care anymore what you think. Canadians have a much opportunity as ever for NCAA scholarhips no matter what spin you try to put on it.

CHL grads in CIS. Didn't someone post 300 or so in CIS? I count 55 CHL teams with an average of app. 6 grads per year and with players in the CIS that have graduated from the CHL in the past 6 years that amounts to APPROXIMATELY 2000 PLAYERS VOB to pick from. I may be underestimating the totals but I know you are over-inflating them as well. Also, please acknowledge that many CHL grads only get minimal packages worth only about $1500 a year towards education and also many Quebec league players that don't get anything because they didn't play 2 full years which I have been told is a criteria. The truth likely lies in the middle.

As for Greyhounds in the NHL - please. Golden Gophers in the NHL total well over 80 and nobody comes close in the last 3 years especially your Hounds.

Have fun.

 

[VOB]

For a very smart guy you are one stubborn spin doctor VOB.

2004 NCAA total Canadians are equal to or more than 7 of the last 10 years including 2 of the years since 1999. I have counted and recounted Heisenbergs totals. I'm at a point I don't care anymore what you think. Canadians have a much opportunity as ever for NCAA scholarhips no matter what spin you try to put on it.

CHL grads in CIS. Didn't someone post 300 or so in CIS? I count 55 CHL teams with an average of app. 6 grads per year and with players in the CIS that have graduated from the CHL in the past 6 years that amounts to APPROXIMATELY 2000 PLAYERS VOB to pick from. I may be underestimating the totals but I know you are over-inflating them as well. Also, please acknowledge that many CHL grads only get minimal packages worth only about $1500 a year towards education and also many Quebec league players that don't get anything because they didn't play 2 full years which I have been told is a criteria. The truth likely lies in the middle.

As for Greyhounds in the NHL - please. Golden Gophers in the NHL total well over 80 and nobody comes close in the last 3 years especially your Hounds.

Have fun.

Lets put a nail in this (your) coffin eye!

Canadians recruited by NCAA teams
2000-149
2001-167
2002-165
2003-158
2004-146-(including at least 10 American born players-lowest number since 1999!)
Like I said, lowest since 99

End of that discussion

As for education and the OHL-please provide a link of where it says only 300 former CHL players were in the CIS last year? (you continue to fail to back up any of your statements with credible evidence!) In the 2002-03 season there were close to 200 former OHL players in the CIS alone and over 95 % of all current OHL players are either in high school or university! Link http://www.ontariohockeyleague.com/aboutOHL/news.php?sub=&id=635

Using your faulty logic (that I must modify) approx 6 grads per year times FOUR (average time spent earning a degree!) times 20 teams= 480. 200 players in the CIS divided by 480 graduates = FORTY TWO PERCENT!!! A FAR HIGHER FIGURE THAN YOUR 10 PERCENT FROM YOUR MAKE BELIEVE STUDY, wouldn't you say eye?

Judging by your posts; you know nothing of the education packages the O offers and even the least and basic package covers full tuition which is more than 1500 dollars a year!

End of that discussion!

As for Greyhound alums vs Gophs, please!! If you even want to limit it to the past ten years and exclude hall of famers like Gretzky, Vanbiesrouck et al, the Hounds still come out a head.

1994 to 04 Hounds Alums currently playing in the NHL (through the 03-04 season)
Steve Sullivan
Dan Cloutier
Rico Fata
Joe Thornton
Ric Jackman
Nathan Perrot
Josef Vasicek
Trevor Daley
Ray Emery
Adam Munro

94-04 Goph Alums currently playing in the NHL
Erik Rasmussen
Casey Hankinson
Ben Clymer
Wyatt Smith
Erick Westrum
Jordon Leopold
Jeff Taffe
Paul Martin

Which list do you think is better?!?! What is even more telling is that for many of these past ten years the Greyhounds have been a below average team while the Gophs have won two NCAA titles!

End of that discussion!

Any thing else eye?

 

[eye]

I suggest you recount Heisenberg's site using the lists further down the page where it lists them by region. You can't add. Even using your number of 146 it's average for the past 10 years so no drop off like you wanted everyone to think.

Your OHL/CIS numbers are way out of whack. Just scroll down the team lists on HDB and you will see very few OHL names in CIS programs. I have a very reliable contact in the OHL that tells me the basic education package is $1500 per year and says only high picks get more. Quebec teams only get education money after 2 years and it's not a full ride by any means and WHL players get a standard amount no matter what round they were chosen. According to contact who wished to remain confidential only 1st rounders get anything close to a full ride of books, tuition and board. I don't really care what the exact number is VOB, just that I hate it when you portray that CHL players all get full ride money and we both know that's not the case. It's nothing to sneeze at but far from full ride money in most cases as the players that do have full ride agreements are usually 1st rounders that CHL managers know will turn pro and are highly unlikely to collect.

Greyhounds that are still in the NHL that played the last 3 years = 0 Munro, Emery and Daly had a cup of coffee but were sent back to finish the year in the AHL.

What is the total of Greyhounds that actually graduated from the Hounds that have played in the NHL. Of the names you provided in the last 10 years only Sullivan, Thornton, Jackman, Vasicek and Parrot graduated from SSM and still play in the NHL.

 

[VOB]

I suggest you recount Heisenberg's site using the lists further down the page where it lists them by region. You can't add. Even using your number of 146 it's average for the past 10 years so no drop off like you wanted everyone to think.

Your OHL/CIS numbers are way out of whack. Just scroll down the team lists on HDB and you will see very few OHL names in CIS programs. I have a very reliable contact in the OHL that tells me the basic education package is $1500 per year and says only high picks get more. Quebec teams only get education money after 2 years and it's not a full ride by any means and WHL players get a standard amount no matter what round they were chosen. According to contact who wished to remain confidential only 1st rounders get anything close to a full ride of books, tuition and board. I don't really care what the exact number is VOB, just that I hate it when you portray that CHL players all get full ride money and we both know that's not the case. It's nothing to sneeze at but far from full ride money in most cases as the players that do have full ride agreements are usually 1st rounders that CHL managers know will turn pro and are highly unlikely to collect.

Greyhounds that are still in the NHL that played the last 3 years = 0 Munro, Emery and Daly had a cup of coffee but were sent back to finish the year in the AHL.

What is the total of Greyhounds that actually graduated from the Hounds that have played in the NHL. Of the names you provided in the last 10 years only Sullivan, Thornton, Jackman, Vasicek and Parrot graduated from SSM and still play in the NHL.

Would you care to add what's on Heisenberg's list eye and then post it so all can see?!?

You have no contact in the OHL, just like you have no NHL scouting buddy and just like if you did see Carter play, you were either comotose or high because your discription of him was way off the mark!

All knowlegable posters know what the standard OHL education packages entail and if you want a rundown on it then email and I will gladly fill you in because you have no clue!

As for my CIS numbers, I have at least provided a link and EVIDENCE, you have provided, as usual, SQUAT! If what you say about the HDB is true(and it isn't!) then post it, do you know how do this. It goes something like this eye

Former CHL players in the Canadian University Final Six

St. Francis-Xavier X-Men (2004 CIS Champions)
Dwayne Bateman, Toronto St. Michael's Majors
Mike Martone, Peterborough Petes
Darren McMillan, Erie Otters
Wes Jarvis, Kitchener Rangers
Ben Berthiaume, Moncton Wildcats
Blake Robson, Prince George Cougars
Shawn Snider, Sudbury Wolves
Chris Brannen, Kitchener Rangers
Dallas Flaman, Kelowna Rockets
Ryan Walsh, Toronto St. Michael's Majors
Ryan Armstrong, North Bay Centennials
Stuart MacRae, Halifax Mooseheads
Todd Norman, Guelph Storm
Ryan White, Halifax Mooseheads
Patrick Grandmaitre, Quebec Remparts
Eric Braff, Kingston Frontenacs
Mike Smith, Kingston Frontenacs
Mike Mole, Belleville Bulls
Omar Enaffati, Mississauga IceDogs
Troy Smith, Plymouth Whalers
Bobby Reed, Moncton Wildcats
Dustin Russell, Cape Breton Screaming Eagles

University of Ottawa Gee-Gees
Nevin Patterson, Sudbury Wolves
Chris Boucher, Toronto St. Michael's Majors
Nathan Tennant, Plymouth Whalers
Samuel Seguin, Halifax Mooseheads
Brad Rohrig, Red Deer Rebels
Evan Lagace, Erie Otters
Jerome Briere, Rouyn-Noranda Huskies
Sean Edwards, Kingston Frontenacs
Jonathan Robert, Rimouski Oceanic
Jordan Watt, Kelowna Rockets

Dalhousie Tigers
Brad Pierce, North Bay Centennials
Brent Theobald, Soo Greyhounds
Dominic Noel, Cape Breton Screaming Eagles
Patrick Vincent, Victoriaville Tigres
Chris Stanley, Belleville Bulls
Rob Dunphy, Cape Breton Screaming Eagles
Jonah Leroux, Sudbury Wolves
Mark Lynk, Halifax Mooseheads
Andre Robichaud, Sarnia Sting
Tyler Durham, Oshawa Generals
J.F. Perras, Ottawa 67's
Martin Beck, Moose Jaw Warriors
Chris Tellum, Cape Breton Screaming Eagles
Noel Coultice, Erie Otters
Billy Browne, Kitchener Rangers
Martin Gascon, Victoriaville Tigres

University of Alberta Golden Bears
Harlan Andreson, Moose Jaw Warriors
Brian Ballman, Lethbridge Hurricanes
David Boychuk, Spokane Chiefs
Wade Burt, Kootenay Ice
Jeff Feniak, Regina Pats
Richard Hamula, Vancouver Giants
Scott Henkelman, Kamloops Blazers
Kris Knoblauch, Lethbridge Hurricanes
Tim Krymusa, Spokane Chiefs
Kevin Marsh, Red Deer Rebels
Gavin McLeod, Kelowna Rockets
Chris Ovington, Spokane Chiefs
Clayton Pool, Kootenay Ice
David Rathjen, Tri-City Americans
Curtis Rich, Kelowna Rockets
Dustin Schwartz, Red Deer Rebels
Steve Shrum, Kamloops Blazers
Tyler Shybunka, Saskatoon Blades
Blair St. Martin, Medicine Hat Tigers
Ryan Stempfle, Medicine Hat Tigers
Ben Thomson, Medicine Hat Tigers
Brad Tutschek, Seattle Thunderbirds
Ryan Wade, Kelowna Rockets
Justin Wallin, Saskatoon Blades
Jeff Zorn, Saskatoon Blades

York University Yeomen
Steve Chabbert, Guelph Storm
Jerry Connell, Sudbury Wolves
Scott Della Vedova, Quebec Remparts
Derek Dolson, Oshawa Generals
Jon Hedberg, Soo Greyhounds
Rich Kearns, Brampton Battalion
Phil Knapp, Mississauga IceDogs
Sean Murphy, Toronto St. Michael's Majors
Shane Nash, Erie Otters
Jason Pinizzotto, Toronto St. Michael's Majors
Rob Shilton, Sudbury Wolves
Julian Smith, Mississauga IceDogs

University of New Brunswick Reds
Craig Perry, Spokane Chiefs
Craig Mahon, Windsor Spitfires
Kevin Werner, North Bay Centennials
Troy Stonier, Ottawa 67's
Colin Sinclair, Kootenay Ice
Jason Hegberg, Lethbridge Hurricanes
Denny Johnston, Prince George Cougars
Ryan Burgoyne, London Knights
Kyler Werner, North Bay Centennials
Rob Hegberg, Moose Jaw Warriors
Reg Bourcier, Kitchener Rangers
Jesse Ferguson, Kelowna Rockets
Ryan Lindsay, Oshawa Generals
Kevin Young, Brampton Battalion
Mike Dombkiewicz, Owen Sound Attack


Yeah sure eye, very few OHL players there, OH WAIT ON SECOND LOOK I COUNT AROUND 45!!!! WRONG AGAIN EYE

All the players I listed PLAYED FOR THE HOUNDS! Greyhound fans had the pleasure of wathcing them ALL DON GREYHOUND JERSEYS and ALL are considered ALUMNI! I am at least glad to see that you agree that the Hounds list is better than what the Gophs have put out!

As for the past three years, well other than Leopold, what has Minny given us?!

I know that you are a little bit weak in the knees eye, so I will leave money out of this, do want to bet (just for bragging rights of course, I don't want to make you break out in hives) that Trevor Daley will have a better NHL career than Kieth Ballard?!?

 

[eye]

I could have cut and paste those names too VOB by what's the point you would have just put your spin on them. Who cares about exact numbers? I don't. I do know that there are as many opportunities for Canadians in the NCAA as there ever was. At your request, here is the link. just replace the year to check out every year in the past 10 to see that there has been no drop off when it comes to Canadians playing NCAA hockey - it's just in your imagination VOB.

http://members.aol.com/cheisenber/Recruit04.htm

As for packages and your standard players agreement - I'm told it will be faxed to me by the weekend so I will get back to you. I'm still told that basic education packages start at $1500 per year and that most and not almost all full rides never get collected by high end pro players. There have been over 2000 CHL graduates in the last 6 years so it stands to reason that there would be plenty playing CIS hockey, the question is; how much of their education is being paid for? I give the CHL credit for paying the entire shot while their players attend University but then again how many really do attend full time? I willing to bet - not a high percentage.

Ballard vs. Daly - I saw Daly enough last year in Dallas to know he will be no better than a career minor league player with some call up time. Great skater but not that smart and at about 5'10" wasn't very strong either. I'm not totally sold on Ballard either but I do like his chances of playing regular at the NHL level than Daly'
s so add that to our 5 year list of things to boast/compare about.

Again, how many Greyhounds have made it to the NHL? Graduating Greyhounds please and not the ones they gave up on and traded away.

 

[VOB]

I could have cut and paste those names too VOB by what's the point you would have just put your spin on them. Who cares about exact numbers? I don't. I do know that there are as many opportunities for Canadians in the NCAA as there ever was. At your request, here is the link. just replace the year to check out every year in the past 10 to see that there has been no drop off when it comes to Canadians playing NCAA hockey - it's just in your imagination VOB.

http://members.aol.com/cheisenber/Recruit04.htm

As for packages and your standard players agreement - I'm told it will be faxed to me by the weekend so I will get back to you. I'm still told that basic education packages start at $1500 per year and that most and not almost all full rides never get collected by high end pro players. There have been over 2000 CHL graduates in the last 6 years so it stands to reason that there would be plenty playing CIS hockey, the question is; how much of their education is being paid for? I give the CHL credit for paying the entire shot while their players attend University but then again how many really do attend full time? I willing to bet - not a high percentage.

Ballard vs. Daly - I saw Daly enough last year in Dallas to know he will be no better than a career minor league player with some call up time. Great skater but not that smart and at about 5'10" wasn't very strong either. I'm not totally sold on Ballard either but I do like his chances of playing regular at the NHL level than Daly'
s so add that to our 5 year list of things to boast/compare about.

Again, how many Greyhounds have made it to the NHL? Graduating Greyhounds please and not the ones they gave up on and traded away.

Oh pleeeaasseee do get back to me with that fax eye, because I am dying to read it (again NO EVIDENCE!) If you want the truth about education packages eye, just email me and I will respond because we all know that no fax will be coming!

Gee you only posted a link that I previously posted, WOW what a rebuttal!

Taking Canadian content, and specifically Ontario bred content, in the NCAA one step further eye, we can also say that not only are the numbers down but where they are being recruited to is to the lesser conferences where most won't even get partial scholarships, let alone full ones. Case in point, in 1997 61 players were recruited by the big four conferences. In 2004 that number shrank to 35. The rest were all taken by AHC and CHA conferences.

So tell me something eye, according to you, Michigan fans should not count players such as VanRyn and Comrie as alums because they did not graduate from Michigan? What about Clymer, because he bolted to the WHL for one season you refuse to list him as one of your former players? What about Taffe, he left school early without graduating and played in the AHL, so I guess he doesn't count either right? So Greyhound fans cannot call Dan Cloutier one of their own because he ended his fine OHL career with Geulph even though he played 125 games with the Soo and only 17 with Guelph? Sure makes allot of sense eye (only to you! )

I asked for evidence and the only thing you can come up with is a mythical fax to go along with your make believe studies and shoddy research. You are a classic eye, no doubt about it!

Regarding Daley, let me ask you something eye, how long have you been watching hockey? Do you understand any thing about the game? As a wannabe scout, you are atrocious (leads me to believe that you are a novice). Daley maybe small but he is stronger than an ox! Strength will not be an issue with him and his decision-making abilities are fine! He was a 20-year-old rookie Dman who received significant time on the power play in the AHL and performed well when called up by the Stars. But Naah he can't be any good and will only be a career minor leaguer at best cause you said so

 

[MikeC44]

As for packages and your standard players agreement - I'm told it will be faxed to me by the weekend so I will get back to you. I'm still told that basic education packages start at $1500 per year and that most and not almost all full rides never get collected by high end pro players. There have been over 2000 CHL graduates in the last 6 years so it stands to reason that there would be plenty playing CIS hockey, the question is; how much of their education is being paid for? I give the CHL credit for paying the entire shot while their players attend University but then again how many really do attend full time? I willing to bet - not a high percentage.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say about high-end pro players no collecting their education money. Of course they don't, they're high end pro players who can afford to pay for it themselves if they choose to go to school.
Also, the basic education package starts at $2000, and that is a bare minimum.

I would say 0% percent of CHL players go to university full-time during the season. That would be near impossible. If they go, they take a credit or 2, and maybe another credit or 2 in the summer.
Obviously once they finish junior, if they want to play CIS hockey, they have to attend full-time. There are also players who stop playing hockey once their junior days are done, and who go to school and don't play hockey in the CIS.

I don't know if this article was posted before, and I don't want to check through 15 pages: http://magazine.tsn.ca/magazine/dis...y&story=020107_chl&col=holmes&length=1&page=1

 

[Oilers Chick]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say about high-end pro players no collecting their education money. Of course they don't, they're high end pro players who can afford to pay for it themselves if they choose to go to school.
Also, the basic education package starts at $2000, and that is a bare minimum.

I would say 0% percent of CHL players go to university full-time during the season. That would be near impossible. If they go, they take a credit or 2, and maybe another credit or 2 in the summer.
Obviously once they finish junior, if they want to play CIS hockey, they have to attend full-time. There are also players who stop playing hockey once their junior days are done, and who go to school and don't play hockey in the CIS.

I don't know if this article was posted before, and I don't want to check through 15 pages: http://magazine.tsn.ca/magazine/dis...y&story=020107_chl&col=holmes&length=1&page=1

MikeC44: Thanks for posting that link. It was very imformative. However, I do have one big question though. With all the monies that these players get, specifically those in the WHL. If they accumulate all this money and don't bother (perhaps changing their minds) to go a college or university at all? Do they still keep the money or pay/give it back? Don't you think that simply "giving" away cash that may never be used for its intended purpose would be a waste and possibly taking away educational funding from someone else who actually DOES want to go to a college/university at some point?

Also, what are some of the specifc rules governing funding the players who do (or at least thinking about) going to a collge or university? I'm not asking about the "you play x number of games/years, you get this much" question here either. I'm asking about what educational commitments are involved (if any)? Does need (family income) play any role in determining who gets how much?