Ncaa Vs Chl

[Oilers Chick]

I understand what you are saying but keep in mind that when a press release states that the University of so and so will be losing 5 senior to graduation, this does not mean that they have earned their degrees. John Micheal Lyles is a good example of this. He played four years for M.S.U. but was a couple of classes short of actually earning his degree. I am sure he will complete those classes in due time but you cannot say that he graduated within the four year time period.

As I've previous stated, I compiled my info from a variety sources, not just press releases.

Yes many pro players do end up finishing their degrees while they are playing in the NHL or AHL. That included former CHL players as well as NCAA players, however.

I have always maintained that because a players does not choose the NCAA route, it in no way means that he is foresaking his education. I think many pro-NCAA people have a hard time understanding that.

I never said they did.

As for the numbers of incoming recruits this year, again refer to the link I have provided. If you crunch the numbers you will find that Canadians represent less than 35% of incoming freshman.

The link you have provided is just one source. It also a source (if you read the fine print in the intro) that states that people using his info do so at their own risk, meaning it may not necessarily be 100% accurate/correct. Furthermore, it is constantly being updated so the numbers fluctuate.

While I'd have to go take a look on a year by year (rather than a collective of years combined) to give you the "trend numbers", but I would venture to guess at this point that you may be right as far OVERALL number of Canadians going into the NCAA, but where these Canadians are coming from (such as the BCHL) is subjective, because maybe the enrollment numbers are declining in the Eastern portion of Canada, but yet may be increasing in Western Canada.

Many schools have coaching staffs with connections (to varying degrees) in Canada, so I seriously doubt that NCAA recruiting in Canada will ever end anytime soon. Case & point, a couple of days ago former UAF player Wade Klippenstein returned to his alma mater in an assistant coaching/recruiting capacity. Now I'm bringing him up because he'll be a valuable asset to UAF as far as recruiting in Canada since his previous two stints was with the WHL. Most recently with Moose Jaw as director of recruiting and player development and prior to that with Prince Albert where he was a member of the Raiders' coaching staff.

Also, when I mention scholarships I am mentioning athletic scholarships NOT academic scholarships. Furthermore, you must keep in mind that not all D-1 schools offering Men's Ice Hockey award scholarships. The Ivies, the military schools and Union College are examples of D-1 schools that do not offer athletic scholarships. Furthermore, schools such as Colgate have just begun to offer athletic scholarships and currently offer a very limited number. In the case of Colgate, they only currently offer 4, while schools such as Minnesota can offer up to the NCAA limit of 18. Also, the NCAA's maximum number of athletic scholarships allowed per school is 18, which is down from the previous 20 from about 10 years ago.

 

[VOB]

Oilers chick, I have never said that recruiting in Canada will cease all together. What I am saying is that recruiting in Canada is much more difficult than it was a decade ago.Many teams have reduced the amount of time that they once invested in Canada and some teams no longer actively recruit in certain regions of the country. That the Canadian content has declined in the NCAA over the past decade is a fact and cannot be debated.

The web page I provided is constucted by Chris Heisenber (yes he is related to the famous physicist, grandson I believe) and his accuracy is second to none! He often lists recruits who have committed weeks and in some cases months before the schools themselves report it. It doesn't really matter what source you use, however, because the information you gain will all point to a low percentage of incoming freshman from Canada.

I am well aware of the differences between athletic scholarships and academic ones and, as I have pointed out previously, those who are receiving full scholarships on any given program number no more than 50 to 60 % of the entire team roster. The rest must pay a certain percentage themselves.

 

[eye]

Well researched and backed up posts Oilers Chick. VOB is right in only one aspect in that Heisenberg's site is the most accurate singular site for research on this topic. The total number of Canadians playing NCAA hockey has remained pretty consistent for the past 15 years. Between 150-250 each year including the upcoming 2004-05 season. The only reason that the percentage has dropped slightly is that there are many more D1 schools and the U.S. content has made up the difference. Canadians continue to contribute the same amount of players each year. It's like the NHL. The amount of Canadians playing in the NHL hasn't changed much in over 32 years but the percentage has gone from 100% Canadian to a total I'm guessing is about 35% - 40%. There are still over 400 Canadians under NHL contract which is about the same as there were in 1972. I'm not sure what VOB's agenda is but there is no doubt that he has one. Just not sure why.

 

[stockwizard*]

Well researched and backed up posts Oilers Chick. VOB is right in only one aspect in that Heisenberg's site is the most accurate singular site for research on this topic. The total number of Canadians playing NCAA hockey has remained pretty consistent for the past 15 years. Between 150-250 each year including the upcoming 2004-05 season. The only reason that the percentage has dropped slightly is that there are many more D1 schools and the U.S. content has made up the difference. Canadians continue to contribute the same amount of players each year. It's like the NHL. The amount of Canadians playing in the NHL hasn't changed much in over 32 years but the percentage has gone from 100% Canadian to a total I'm guessing is about 35% - 40%. There are still over 400 Canadians under NHL contract which is about the same as there were in 1972. I'm not sure what VOB's agenda is but there is no doubt that he has one. Just not sure why.

Your saying the NHL is around 35% Canadian. Try doing some research.

 

[eye]

Your saying the NHL is around 35% Canadian. Try doing some research.

Hey wizard, I said 35-40 percent and even if its 45 percent the point remains the same. About 400 or so Canadians is a farely constant total of Canadians playing in the NHL for the past 30 years. The percent changes depending on what we use in terms of games played to determine percentages so the total can vary between 35 and OK lets say 45 percent. The fact remains that VOB is wrong yet again and he said this fact cant be disputed. Well I just did. The average number of canadians playing NCAA has not dropped like VOB claims only the percentage has changed.

 

[stockwizard*]

Hey wizard, I said 35-40 percent and even if its 45 percent the point remains the same. About 400 or so Canadians is a farely constant total of Canadians playing in the NHL for the past 30 years. The percent changes depending on what we use in terms of games played to determine percentages so the total can vary between 35 and OK lets say 45 percent. The fact remains that VOB is wrong yet again and he said this fact cant be disputed. Well I just did. The average number of canadians playing NCAA has not dropped like VOB claims only the percentage has changed.

The percentage of Canadians playing in the NHL is actually 52%.
Maybe more Canadians are deciding to play Major Junior because of the excellent education programs they offer. Even if it is just a % drop it still says something.

 

[eye]

The percentage of Canadians playing in the NHL is actually 52%.
Maybe more Canadians are deciding to play Major Junior because of the excellent education programs they offer. Even if it is just a % drop it still says something.

Do you have a link to this info? My math and research shows app. 400 players out of over 1000 NHL contraced players are Canadian playing on 30 NHL teams. which is less than 40%.

 

[VOB]

Hey wizard, I said 35-40 percent and even if its 45 percent the point remains the same. About 400 or so Canadians is a farely constant total of Canadians playing in the NHL for the past 30 years. The percent changes depending on what we use in terms of games played to determine percentages so the total can vary between 35 and OK lets say 45 percent. The fact remains that VOB is wrong yet again and he said this fact cant be disputed. Well I just did. The average number of canadians playing NCAA has not dropped like VOB claims only the percentage has changed.

I am always wrong? What about all your "all goph grads are in the AHL/NHL"? What about your totally eroneous posts about CHL education packages and pro contracts?

Well anyway eye, the number of Canadians has declined in REAL TERMS as well as on a percentage basis. In 2001, 167 players from Canada were recruited by U.S. colleges (numbers taken from both the Canadian Junior A hockey League webpage, which at the time did not include the OPJHL, and Heisenbers site) In 2004, that number shrank to 133 players. A decline of 34 in real numbers and a percentage decrease of over 20%. The numbers do not look all that promising for 2005 either as roughly only 29 players from Canada have been recruited thus far compared to approximatly 92 from the U.S.

Stockwizard is correct, and yet again you are wrong eye. Canadians still comprise over 50% of NHL rosters and it makes me laugh that you would dare challenge him to back up his statements when so far all you have done is spew falsehoods and opinions (bad ones that!) without a whif of any independent evidence! Where is the link that supports your "research"?! If you want a link to those numbers try NHL.com and count for yourself!


Hey maybe my signature should be this; VOB-pushing back the frontier of ignorance so that eye may finally open his eyes

 

[eye]

I am always wrong? What about all your "all goph grads are in the AHL/NHL"? What about your totally eroneous posts about CHL education packages and pro contracts?

Well anyway eye, the number of Canadians has declined in REAL TERMS as well as on a percentage basis. In 2001, 167 players from Canada were recruited by U.S. colleges (numbers taken from both the Canadian Junior A hockey League webpage, which at the time did not include the OPJHL, and Heisenbers site) In 2004, that number shrank to 133 players. A decline of 34 in real numbers and a percentage decrease of over 20%. The numbers do not look all that promising for 2005 either as roughly only 29 players from Canada have been recruited thus far compared to approximatly 92 from the U.S.

Stockwizard is correct, and yet again you are wrong eye. Canadians still comprise over 50% of NHL rosters and it makes me laugh that you would dare challenge him to back up his statements when so far all you have done is spew falsehoods and opinions (bad ones that!) without a whif of any independent evidence! Where is the link that supports your "research"?! If you want a link to those numbers try NHL.com and count for yourself!


Hey maybe my signature should be this; VOB-pushing back the frontier of ignorance so that eye may finally open his eyes

Funny how you always claim to do your homework. You always take stats and put your own spin on them which is fine. I did my homework last season on Canadian content in the NHL by checking every player on HDB that played at least 10 games in the NHL and my total was just over 400 out of over 1000 names which amounts to around 40 percent a drop from 100 percent just 32 years ago so I am not sure why or where you selectively pick "over 50 percent" from. Doesn't really matter I was just using it as a comparison to prove a point about the NCAA. You better go back and recount your NCAA Canadian content as I count over 150 already for 2004 and that figure does not include the 20-40 summer late signings that always occur so based on your own 2001 stat of 167 you have confirmed why I re-entered this silly debate in that the total number of Canadians in the NCAA is stable constant and NOT declining as you like to state. Which NCAA team was it that cut you loose or never offered you a ride? Too bad you don't take your vast hockey knowledge and put it to better use.

 

[VOB]

Funny how you always claim to do your homework. You always take stats and put your own spin on them which is fine. I did my homework last season on Canadian content in the NHL by checking every player on HDB that played at least 10 games in the NHL and my total was just over 400 out of over 1000 names which amounts to around 40 percent a drop from 100 percent just 32 years ago so I am not sure why or where you selectively pick "over 50 percent" from. Doesn't really matter I was just using it as a comparison to prove a point about the NCAA. You better go back and recount your NCAA Canadian content as I count over 150 already for 2004 and that figure does not include the 20-40 summer late signings that always occur so based on your own 2001 stat of 167 you have confirmed why I re-entered this silly debate in that the total number of Canadians in the NCAA is stable constant and NOT declining as you like to state. Which NCAA team was it that cut you loose or never offered you a ride? Too bad you don't take your vast hockey knowledge and put it to better use.

Eye, go to either Slam hockey or NHL.com and I will gurantee you that you will find Canadian content to be over 50%. Slam has them broken down by nationality. I really don't want to do that leg work eye but for you I just might because you know that I can't resist correcting you at every turn!(My pals have always said that I should have been a teacher).

Go and re-count your numbers for the NCAA as well. They are down, again a fact!

I never tried out for nor was cut by any NCAA team eye. Why do my opinions bother you so much? Is it becasue they are true and yours aren't? You claim that I am so anti-NCAA but I have never put down that league and I even laid down a challenge to you to prove otherwise, to which you have not responded (understandable since I never made such a quote and you should at least have the decency to acknowledge that!).

If you respond, you better have a list to back up your claims, because I will!

Oh and I'm still waiting to hear why you tried to spin off the claim that all Goph grads have gone to the AHL or NHL!

 

[stockwizard*]

Yes, VOB is right.
I don't know why Eye assumes you to have an alterior motive. Facts are facts.

 

[VOB]

I was skimming through the US collegehockey website and came across a very interesting thread titled "top recruits of 04" This is what one poster said

QUOTE]Originally posted by Puck Swami
[B]When the OHL decided to increase educational assistance and gaurantee a university education to its players, the pipeline of Ontario talent to the NCAA slowed dramatically. And then when the OHL cut the amount of mid-week games to allow its kids to actually go to school without missing classes, the flow of top Ontario talent to the NCAA slowed even more. That's the big reason why the CCHA and ECAC are down. They were the benefactors of that Ontario talent pool, and as it has declined, those leagues have suffered. I think would take a huge effort for Ontario Tier II to come back to anywhere near what it was as it competes with the OHL for the top kids.

At the same time, the USHL has really improved its product. For example, this year, Denver, which has always been a Western Canada dominated program, had its first all USA/USHL recruiting class in its 50+ year history. Now Denver isn't giving up on Western Canada at all, but we see former Canadian-dominated programs (Denver, Michigan, North Dakota, Cornell, etc) now filling its rosters with US kids, mostly from the USHL. That isn't going to change. [/B][/QUOTE]


To an extent, it is the same thing that I have been saying, and, by the way eye, this was taken from a very pro NCAA message board

 

[eye]

Like I said the reason I re-entered this debate was because you attempted to convince others that Canadian content in the NCAA has gone down and that is simply not supported by facts. All due respect to Puck Swami, he didn't back up his silly statement.

VOB, if you want to be a teacher, do the math.

2004 - NCAA commitments according to Heisenberg's site and also checking USHL, Mass New England and NAHL sites.

Ontario - 65
Sask./Man. - 21
Alberta - 6
B.C. - 51
NAHL - 6
USHL - 7
Minn/Mid-West - 2
Mass/N.E. 3

TOTAL 2004 commitments so far = 161 not including late summer signings so this exceeds the figure you yourself provided for 2001 and does not include DIII schools where many teams are dominated by Canadian talent. There will be over 175 Canadians playing D1 hockey which is better than average for the past 10 years so NO decline is evident.

I told you I only brought NHL %'s into the debate to show how total number of players may not change while %'s do just to prove to you that your % arguement was irrelevent and non-supportive of your stance. There may very well be 50% Cdn. content but the fact remains that the NHL has for over 30 years provided about 400 players even though the % continues to decline almost yearly. I told you how I checked last years season 2002-03 for all players that played over 10 games but I really don't care to debate this any further since it's irrelevent to the basis for my original statement about Cdn. content in the NCAA.

Regarding SSM Greyhounds, interesting that only 6 players have played Canadian University Hockey and very few games I might add since the year 2000.

Regarding Minnesota Golden Gophers - technically you are right but only by splitting hairs. Don Lucia recruited and coached teams will possibly go down as the most successful in North America. All of the players he has recruited "that play regularly VOB" have either graduated to play in the NHL, AHL or have been drafted high enough to assume they will be given every chance of starting in the AHL or directly to the NHL. e.g.'s

Taffe - NHL
Hauser - ECHL/AHL 1st year AHL full time now
Potulny - AHL will play NHL games this year
Ballard - 1st rounder just singed by Phoenix
Martin - NHL
Leopold - NHL
Tallackson - 2nd round N.J. likely Albany this year
Pohl - AHL/NHL will play NHL games this year
Riddle - Blues 4th round likely to start Worcester this year
Koalska - Preds 5th round likely to start Admirals this year
Angell - UHL/AHL
Welch - AHL
Demarchi - AHL, will play NHL games this year
Waibel - to be determined
Vanek - Sabres 1st rounder now a Junior
Irmen Wild 3rd rounder now a Junior
Ryan Potulny - Flyers 3rd rounder now a Soph.
Vannelli - Thrashers 4th rounder
Taylor - Rangers 6th rounder

This is all of the players that play regularly under Lucia.

Look forward to reading how you spin and twist my words again VOB.

 

[VOB]

Like I said the reason I re-entered this debate was because you attempted to convince others that Canadian content in the NCAA has gone down and that is simply not supported by facts. All due respect to Puck Swami, he didn't back up his silly statement.

VOB, if you want to be a teacher, do the math.

2004 - NCAA commitments according to Heisenberg's site and also checking USHL, Mass New England and NAHL sites.

Ontario - 65
Sask./Man. - 21
Alberta - 6
B.C. - 51
NAHL - 6
USHL - 7
Minn/Mid-West - 2
Mass/N.E. 3

TOTAL 2004 commitments so far = 161 not including late summer signings so this exceeds the figure you yourself provided for 2001 and does not include DIII schools where many teams are dominated by Canadian talent. There will be over 175 Canadians playing D1 hockey which is better than average for the past 10 years so NO decline is evident.

I told you I only brought NHL %'s into the debate to show how total number of players may not change while %'s do just to prove to you that your % arguement was irrelevent and non-supportive of your stance. There may very well be 50% Cdn. content but the fact remains that the NHL has for over 30 years provided about 400 players even though the % continues to decline almost yearly. I told you how I checked last years season 2002-03 for all players that played over 10 games but I really don't care to debate this any further since it's irrelevent to the basis for my original statement about Cdn. content in the NCAA.

Regarding SSM Greyhounds, interesting that only 6 players have played Canadian University Hockey and very few games I might add since the year 2000.

Regarding Minnesota Golden Gophers - technically you are right but only by splitting hairs. Don Lucia recruited and coached teams will possibly go down as the most successful in North America. All of the players he has recruited "that play regularly VOB" have either graduated to play in the NHL, AHL or have been drafted high enough to assume they will be given every chance of starting in the AHL or directly to the NHL. e.g.'s

Taffe - NHL
Hauser - ECHL/AHL 1st year AHL full time now
Potulny - AHL will play NHL games this year
Ballard - 1st rounder just singed by Phoenix
Martin - NHL
Leopold - NHL
Tallackson - 2nd round N.J. likely Albany this year
Pohl - AHL/NHL will play NHL games this year
Riddle - Blues 4th round likely to start Worcester this year
Koalska - Preds 5th round likely to start Admirals this year
Angell - UHL/AHL
Welch - AHL
Demarchi - AHL, will play NHL games this year
Waibel - to be determined
Vanek - Sabres 1st rounder now a Junior
Irmen Wild 3rd rounder now a Junior
Ryan Potulny - Flyers 3rd rounder now a Soph.
Vannelli - Thrashers 4th rounder
Taylor - Rangers 6th rounder

This is all of the players that play regularly under Lucia.

Look forward to reading how you spin and twist my words again VOB.

No spin (I leave that to you) just the truth eye, nothing but the truth. I am curious to know where you found 7 Canadian born players in the USHL that received scholarships this year. I have only counted four (Oreskovich, Lawrence, Yarowski, and Fornatano, SOURCE: http://www.ushl.com/college/index.cfm). I would also like the names of the 6 Canadian players in the NAHL and the 2 from the Minnesota prep leagues (if one of them is Ryan Duncan then I must say you are sly eye, very sly since you know that he is a 2005 recruit and not a 2004!) Since you mentioned Canadian born players in the US domestic leagues (both real and maybe some imagined) allow me to list some American born talent in the BCHL.

Powell, Schiavone, Ramsey,Hollweg, Johnson, Wilkens, Naglich and Rogers are all Americans and cannot be included in your list of Canadian born players. So your 51 from the BCHL becomes 43. Off the top of my head from Ontario there are Nogatch, Maier and Devine who are also American and I will bet one of my good hats that there are at least a few more Americans in that league who received shcolarships as well! So until I see some specific Canadian names, I may be willing to say that 140 or so Freshman Canadians will play in the NCAA this year.

I am glad to see you finally admitted that you were wrong about the Canadian content in the NHL. 52% of all players is a far cry from your original 35%

You often claim that I am anti-NCAA (which of course you cannot substantiate) but what is your fasination with putting the Greyhounds down? They have produced more star players than the Gophs could ever hope to!
As for Greyhound players in the CIS from the 2000 to 2003 teams, I count nine (that represent a little less than a third of those that graduated) players and not six. Richards (who was the rookie of the year in the OAU by the way eye), Held, Theobold, Jones, Martin, Fox, Day, Hedburg, and Dymtruk were all playing in the CIS this year. Stefanski was just recruited to play for Lakehead this spring and both Dobben and Doyle were heavily recruited by just about every major CIS school but both will likely play pro (my bet is on Dobben to be in the AHL while Doyle will most likely start in the ECHL). Your problem eye is that you rely to much on the Internet Hockeydatabase, which doesn't keep good records of CIS players.

As for your Goph AHL grads, lets go over this again
Aaron Miskovich - Quad City Mallards - UHL
Dylan Mills - Quad City Mallards - UHL
Pat O'Leary - Kalamazoo Wings - UHL
Nick Angell - Rockford Ice Hogs - UHL
Erik Wendell- Rockford Ice Hogs - UHL
Adam Hauser - Jackson Bandits -UHL

I refuse to count someone like Angel, who played a mere TWO GAMES in the AHL this year as an AHL regular! Same goes for Hauser who only played in ONE AHL game his rookie season!
You cannot say for certain that Riddle and Koalska will be in the AHL this coming season (in short don't count your chickens before they hatch eye)!

Are you so arrogant to believe that Lucia's teams will go down as the most successful in North America?

Lets make a bet eye (you can choose the terms). I say that Carter will be more successful in the NHL within the next 5 years than Vanek or any other Goph who played this year. Are you on?!

 

[stockwizard*]

Yes. That is right! Once again VOB is correct.

 

[eye]

Splitting hairs again VOB and yes you are putting your spin on things whether you admit it or not. Stockwizard offers nothing in support as an echo of you. I give you credit for being persistent though and for providing some good research but the bottom line is your still wrong when it comes to Canadian content in the NCAA. You claim and continue to try and make others believe that the NCAA do not recruit as many players in Canada as they once did. I brought the NHL arguement of a lowering % as a comparison to show that total numbers of playrs can be the same while the % lowers due to expansion. Don't get hung up on my NHL % which I only estimated on a whim and the only facts I stood by were the 400 plus Canadians playing out of the 1000 plus players that played 10 plus games in the 2002-03 season. Not a big deal so if it makes you feel better to use this to muddy the waters then feel free to do so. It's really irrelevent to this thread.
Thanks for refreshing my memory that Americans do play north of the border in the hopes of landing a scholarship in the NCAA and occasionally maybe even land in the CHL. This doesn't change things however because it's all relative. Americans have been doing this for years and lowers the yearly average that I used from Heisenberg's site. The fact remains that the total number of Canadians in the NCAA couting late summer signings is bang on the average for the past 10 years. There has been no noticable decline and especially not the drastic decline that you tried to make people believe earlier in this thread and in countless other threads that you participated in. It's not what you say that gives me the impression that you put down the NCAA at every opportunity, it's the way you say it and how you always go to bat for the CHL against it. Never a balance - always one sided.

As for the Golden Gophers you continue to split hairs and get your facts distorted. Go back and read my last post. I said that players that played regular on Don Lucia recruited teams in Minnesota may go down as the best in North American history. Several high draft picks and what was it about 17 or 18 players in a 3 year span that will have played AHL or NHL hockey. If you think for a second that Koalska and Riddle won't be at least playing AHL hockey this year then you have not seen these two compete and skate. The only Greyhound that compares is Jeff Carter. Now for the players you mentioned to cloud the issue: Only Hauser was a Lucia recruit and he did play some AHL hockey his rookie year and was full time in his 2nd year. 3 of the others you mentioned at least played a few AHL games. As for your challenge on Jeff Carter I'm inclined to take you up on that. Carter had a couple of good games early in the WJC against weaker teams if memory serves me right and was almost invisible the rest of the way with the possible exception of a play or two. Vanek is Mr. Clutch and although he is a different kind of player let's put bragging rights on the line with a diary date of June 2009. We can do a pole on HF to decide if you like. I'm printing off this post and hope you do the same.

 

[PuckFan01]

Only Hauser was a Lucia recruit

Actually, Hauser was recruited by Doug Woog. He was a freshman in Woog's final year as Minnesota's coach. Lucia also didn't recruit Taffe, Leopold, Pohl, Angell and a few others listed in prior posts. Lucia's first recruiting class was Riddle, Koalska, Potulny, Paul Martin, Joey Martin and Jon Waibel. Although DeMarchi did decommit from Colorado College and join Lucia at Minnesota before Lucia's 1st season in Minnesota.

 

[eye]

Actually, Hauser was recruited by Doug Woog. He was a freshman in Woog's final year as Minnesota's coach. Lucia also didn't recruit Taffe, Leopold, Pohl, Angell and a few others listed in prior posts. Lucia's first recruiting class was Riddle, Koalska, Potulny, Paul Martin, Joey Martin and Jon Waibel. Although DeMarchi did decommit from Colorado College and join Lucia at Minnesota before Lucia's 1st season in Minnesota.

Thanks for the correction. I'm sure VOB will have some fun with this. I could have worded it better but the bottom line is that Don Lucia has had a tremendous record both in terms of winning championships and recruiting/coaching superior talent to any other team in North America the last few years. I may have over-stated the case to prove to the id""" who got me started by saying Kessel was cowardly for not going to Saginaw of the OHL vs. Wisconsin in the NCAA and claiming the CHL was the only sure way to the NHL.

 

[VOB]

Eye, please tell me when this mythical "late summer signing period" is to take place? All teams are now set and there will only be at best a half dozen recruited players for the fall of 04!

Where are your Canadian names that played in the US this year?

Go and re-count eye because the number of Canadians is down in REAL TERMS!

As for your attack on "puck swami" let me enlighten you even more.
Swami is bang on in his assessment that the talent from Ontario has dropped off dramtically in the past six years. Now as you are well aware, many teams in the NCAA are D-1 only in name and the reality is that there is what you may call a tiered system in college hockey. There are about a dozen teams that can rightly proclaim themselves to be in the first tier of the D-1 ranks and the large majority of pro talent is developed by these teams. Your Gophs are certainly one of those clubs, as are the Michigans, B.C's, Maines and so forth. Next comes the middle tier, where some good players emerge but by and large these teams cannot compete with their more illustrious conterparts in attracting the top talent and as a result rarely challenge for the NCAA title. They do, however, comprise the majority of the NCAA and include teams such as Bowling Green, MTU, Mass-Lowell, Mankato ect. Yes from time to time these teams put together a good season, such as Duluth did this year but by and large they cannot compete against the top tiered schools both in terms of recruiting and on ice success. The bottom tier consists of teams that are a shade better than D-3 clubs and most of them can be found in the Atlantic Hockey Conference and the C.H.A.

Where one is recruited then is indicative of his talent and pro potential. How many prospects will be coming out of Robert Morris this year or an Alabama Huntsvill? Not very many and most of those players would not be playing D-1 hockey if such teams did not exist.

Now as for the numbers, in 1997 a total of 62 players were recruited out of Ontario(Source Heisenbur's website) and every one of those players were recruited by either a tier 1 or tier 2 club, as the MAAC and CHA were non-existant at the time. In 2004, there are a total of 65 players from Ontario (including American born ones) that were recruited by D-1 schools. Out of those 65, however, 34 of them were taken by lower end NCAA clubs. These players would have had great difficulty landing on other teams other than the Robert Morris and MercyHurts, in fact they probably would not have been playing D-1 hockey. If we were to subtract these players from the total numbers this year, we would see that only 30 players from Ontario were recruited by the big four conference teams. A drastic drop from the 62 they recruited 7 years ago. So Puck Swami is completely correct in his assessment of the huge drop off in talent from Ontario that has hurt conferences such as the CCAH and ECAC that traditionally depended on that region for many of their recruits. In short, not only less quantity but less quality as well!

Are you on for the bet then eye!? If so send me a private message, post your emai and I will contact you to decide on the monetary value of this bet. As for Carter's performance at the WJC, only one of his goals was scored against a weak opponent. Regardless, lets get this bet signed sealed and delivered!

 

[dem]

Hey wizard, I said 35-40 percent and even if its 45 percent the point remains the same. About 400 or so Canadians is a farely constant total of Canadians playing in the NHL for the past 30 years. The percent changes depending on what we use in terms of games played to determine percentages so the total can vary between 35 and OK lets say 45 percent. The fact remains that VOB is wrong yet again and he said this fact cant be disputed. Well I just did. The average number of canadians playing NCAA has not dropped like VOB claims only the percentage has changed.

Canadians make up 52 percent of the nhl.. says this.
http://www.nhl.com/onthefly/news/2003/10/162048.html

 

[eye]

Canadians make up 52 percent of the nhl.. says this.
http://www.nhl.com/onthefly/news/2003/10/162048.html

If you have been following this thread closely and have read what I said I have not disputed the % figure, my point being that the % figure has not affected the total average number of Canadians playing in the NHL for the past 30 plus years. From the article you posted it refers only to opening day rosters while my initial statement was about players that played over 10 games during the 02-03 season but thanks for the article, it was very informative.

 

[eye]

Eye, please tell me when this mythical "late summer signing period" is to take place? All teams are now set and there will only be at best a half dozen recruited players for the fall of 04!

Where are your Canadian names that played in the US this year?

Go and re-count eye because the number of Canadians is down in REAL TERMS!

As for your attack on "puck swami" let me enlighten you even more.
Swami is bang on in his assessment that the talent from Ontario has dropped off dramtically in the past six years. Now as you are well aware, many teams in the NCAA are D-1 only in name and the reality is that there is what you may call a tiered system in college hockey. There are about a dozen teams that can rightly proclaim themselves to be in the first tier of the D-1 ranks and the large majority of pro talent is developed by these teams. Your Gophs are certainly one of those clubs, as are the Michigans, B.C's, Maines and so forth. Next comes the middle tier, where some good players emerge but by and large these teams cannot compete with their more illustrious conterparts in attracting the top talent and as a result rarely challenge for the NCAA title. They do, however, comprise the majority of the NCAA and include teams such as Bowling Green, MTU, Mass-Lowell, Mankato ect. Yes from time to time these teams put together a good season, such as Duluth did this year but by and large they cannot compete against the top tiered schools both in terms of recruiting and on ice success. The bottom tier consists of teams that are a shade better than D-3 clubs and most of them can be found in the Atlantic Hockey Conference and the C.H.A.

Where one is recruited then is indicative of his talent and pro potential. How many prospects will be coming out of Robert Morris this year or an Alabama Huntsvill? Not very many and most of those players would not be playing D-1 hockey if such teams did not exist.

Now as for the numbers, in 1997 a total of 62 players were recruited out of Ontario(Source Heisenbur's website) and every one of those players were recruited by either a tier 1 or tier 2 club, as the MAAC and CHA were non-existant at the time. In 2004, there are a total of 65 players from Ontario (including American born ones) that were recruited by D-1 schools. Out of those 65, however, 34 of them were taken by lower end NCAA clubs. These players would have had great difficulty landing on other teams other than the Robert Morris and MercyHurts, in fact they probably would not have been playing D-1 hockey. If we were to subtract these players from the total numbers this year, we would see that only 30 players from Ontario were recruited by the big four conference teams. A drastic drop from the 62 they recruited 7 years ago. So Puck Swami is completely correct in his assessment of the huge drop off in talent from Ontario that has hurt conferences such as the CCAH and ECAC that traditionally depended on that region for many of their recruits. In short, not only less quantity but less quality as well!

Are you on for the bet then eye!? If so send me a private message, post your emai and I will contact you to decide on the monetary value of this bet. As for Carter's performance at the WJC, only one of his goals was scored against a weak opponent. Regardless, lets get this bet signed sealed and delivered!

Much better effort and much more accurate VOB although not totally true. I agree about the different levels of programs in the NCAA but I dispute your figures from Ontario as being 50% of the players only going to the better D1 programs in 1997. I guess we have a differing opinion as to which NCAA teams are 2nd rate programs. At least you finally acknowledge that the total of Canadians was about the same this year as it was in 1997 which was my reason for re-entering this debate. As for our bet, I don't gamble money on anything. I'm too cheap and it's against my makeup. I will like I said bet for bragging rights and we can do a pole on HF in 2009. I will have to check the WJC boxscores because my memory says Carter scored early in the tourny when they played weaker teams (like 3 pts. against Swizerland or something to that effect) and scored very little or accomplished very little when it mattered most.

 

[stockwizard*]

Yes, I knew I was right about the NHL being 52% Canadian.
Just like I am right about Kessel.

 

[VOB]

Much better effort and much more accurate VOB although not totally true. I agree about the different levels of programs in the NCAA but I dispute your figures from Ontario as being 50% of the players only going to the better D1 programs in 1997. I guess we have a differing opinion as to which NCAA teams are 2nd rate programs. At least you finally acknowledge that the total of Canadians was about the same this year as it was in 1997 which was my reason for re-entering this debate. As for our bet, I don't gamble money on anything. I'm too cheap and it's against my makeup. I will like I said bet for bragging rights and we can do a pole on HF in 2009. I will have to check the WJC boxscores because my memory says Carter scored early in the tourny when they played weaker teams (like 3 pts. against Swizerland or something to that effect) and scored very little or accomplished very little when it mattered most.

eye, the numbers ARE DOWN THIS year compared to last year and the year before that, period! As for Ontario, they may have the same numbers as they did in 97 BUT more than half are going to sub-par programs and would not have made it to the NCAA if these teams did not exist! If the same talent level was available in Ontario this year as there was in 97 then you would easily have seen more than 100 players recruited from that region. Are you trying to tell me that a Canisius is on par with a Miami or heck even an Alaska Fairbanks? Face reality!

As for our wager, you are obviously not as confident as I am, and that is understandable because I sure the heck would not want to put money down on Vanek either!

Carter will be the superior player!

 

[VOB]

Yes, I knew I was right about the NHL being 52% Canadian.
Just like I am right about Kessel.

You were right, eye really isn't all that good in the research department, but I am not so sure you are right about Kessel. He is a very good player wizard and while he still may end up in the OHL (Mancini isn't giving up hope yet), his going the NCAA route will in no way damage his ability to continue on towards the NHL.