Myers or Hutton, This Year

[krutovsdonut]

My answer to this thread is why not both? Because we have too much cap space allocated to the bottom six (forwards). Having BOTH Myers and Hutton enables you to have three usable pairings that’ll likely work (one of which will include Hughes).

i have no issue if we had resigned hutton at a low price, even a little more than benn. in my mind, he is at least a 5/6 dman who still has upside and can play extra minutes. benn had a great season and i think the change of personalities may help us. he seems like a good veteran signing but montreal fans are unanimous that he cannot handle extra minutes. that could be an issue for us.

i just have an issue with the premise of this thread.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

didn't ron delorme champion pettersson based on the eye test and scouting reports?

There was a rumor that he did.

Way out of character for Ron and what he usually drafts.

But Im sure if someone wants to be, he can be convinced that that happened.

 

[xtra]

Let’s also point this out per min played - Biega averages more hits, points,shots and fewer giveaways. While starting in the defensive zone about 51%of the time while Myers started only 46% of the time in the dzone.

In fact Myers has fewer hits than biega last year as an absolute value (101 hits for biega vs 97 for Myers) in 39 more games and about 900 more mins. So yea I’m not sure how you can say Myers is clearly better and he’s clearly not more physical.

So based on the numbers of hits we can already call @Hindustan Smyl eye test that Myers is more physical into question correct?

 

[krutovsdonut]

There was a rumor that he did.

Way out of character for Ron and what he usually drafts.

But Im sure if someone wants to be, he can be convinced that that happened.

lol, there were multiple news stories with quotes and even a video as i recall. that is a lot more substantive than the innuendo and supposition that passes for facts around here. there is literally zero basis for calling it a rumour except that it does not fit the world view of you and other posters , so you choose to doubt it.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

lol, there were multiple news stories with quotes and even a video as i recall. that is a lot more substantive than the innuendo and supposition that passes for facts around here. there is literally zero basis for calling it a rumour except that it does not fit the world view of you and other posters , so you choose to doubt it.

What world view is that?

edit. Also do provide links so we can all this evidence.

 

[Hit the post]

I think it’s a moot point as I suspect (my opinion) Gradin’s opinion of EP carried far more weight than a guy who’s main responsibilities is likely scouting in western Canada. I think it’s probably fair to say EPS skills were such that a number of our scouts and Benning wanted him.

 

[Horse McHindu]

View attachment 242273 Myers is better but the “let’s look at what this media person says because they know more than 25 year old advanced stats guys reminds me of this”

You make a good point.

As far as Sutter goes, he was relatively injury-Free during his time in Pittsburgh (I think this is correct.....I cant look up this info right now), but he became inexplicably injury prone in Vancouver. He had a really good year for us in 2017-2018 when he was relatively healthy, but he’s definitely struggled here.

I think Benning’s motivation for trading for a center at the time was sound. The idea of bringing in a new center was so that Horvat could be insulated a little more. Horvat could continue to grow his game on the 3rd line and then take over the 2nd line C position when he was ready.......while still having a “2B” center playing on the 3rd line that could step back onto the 2nd line if Horvat was struggling (which is very common for 2nd year players - hence the term “sophomore slump.”).

The original idea was that Nick Bonino could be that guy for us, but he wasn’t unfortunately. Bonino is and was an excellent 3rd line center but was clearly a fish out of water in a 2nd line capacity. Hence- he needed to be traded to India.

The idea and motivation behind trading for a guy like Sutter was the correct decision to make, but Benning and his Pro Scouting Team May have targeted the wrong guy in Brandon Sutter.

 

[settinguptheplay]

Let’s also point this out per min played - Biega averages more hits, points,shots and fewer giveaways. While starting in the defensive zone about 51%of the time while Myers started only 46% of the time in the dzone.

In fact Myers has fewer hits than biega last year as an absolute value (101 hits for biega vs 97 for Myers) in 39 more games and about 900 more mins. So yea I’m not sure how you can say Myers is clearly better and he’s clearly not more physical.

So based on the numbers of hits we can already call @Hindustan Smyl eye test that Myers is more physical into question correct?

No. Because hits, or what qualifies as a hit, seems to change from rink to rink. Hits as a stat is absolutely useless as there is no consistency to it. Plus minus, also a poor stat, is at least a consistent measure across the entirety of hockey. Hits vary from 1 observer to the next.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

You make a good point.

As far as Sutter goes, he was relatively injury-Free during his time in Pittsburgh (I think this is correct.....I cant look up this info right now), but he became inexplicably injury prone in Vancouver. He had a really good year for us in 2017-2018 when he was relatively healthy, but he’s definitely struggled here.

I think Benning’s motivation for trading for a center at the time was sound. The idea of bringing in a new center was so that Horvat could be insulated a little more. Horvat could continue to grow his game on the 3rd line and then take over the 2nd line C position when he was ready.......while still having a “2B” center playing on the 3rd line that could step back onto the 2nd line if Horvat was struggling (which is very common for 2nd year players - hence the term “sophomore slump.”).

The original idea was that Nick Bonino could be that guy for us, but he wasn’t unfortunately. Bonino is and was an excellent 3rd line center but was clearly a fish out of water in a 2nd line capacity. Hence- he needed to be traded to India.

The idea and motivation behind trading for a guy like Sutter was the correct decision to make, but Benning and his Pro Scouting Team May have targeted the wrong guy in Brandon Sutter.

Every attempt to "insulate the youth" Benning has made so far, has put more pressure on the youth to carry the old geezers who get out scored 2:1 on their young backs.

No. Because hits, or what qualifies as a hit, seems to change from rink to rink. Hits as a stat is absolutely useless as there is no consistency to it. Plus minus, also a poor stat, is at least a consistent measure across the entirety of hockey. Hits vary from 1 observer to the next.

Well thats f***in convenient.

 

[xtra]

No. Because hits, or what qualifies as a hit, seems to change from rink to rink. Hits as a stat is absolutely useless as there is no consistency to it. Plus minus, also a poor stat, is at least a consistent measure across the entirety of hockey. Hits vary from 1 observer to the next.

While that maybe true in some context; the fact that he still had less in 900 more mins shows he’s not more physical.

 

[MS]

lol, this thread premise is peak hfboards.

can't wait for chayka to assemble the can't miss all star starting line up of gaunce, shinkaruk and archibald on forward, and hutton and biega on defence with lack in goal to finally get its due. so many bad gms out there failing to spot all this obvious overlooked talent because they don't understand stats. just a shame really. if only they would hire some posters here they would be winning so many cupz.

in the mean time, i'll be over in the fire holland thread in the oilers subforum looking for a comparatively serious and sane discussion.

Jesus Christ. You're a better poster than this.

Nobody called these guys All-Stars.

The argument here is pretty damned simple, and I can't believe anyone is actually disagreeing with it:

Cheap homegrown depth is invaluable, and when <$1 million guys show they can solidly hold down roster spots at the bottom end of your roster, that's a huge boon for the team. To flush out these guys and then replace them with other fungible bottom-roster players for $millions more is absolutely idiotic, even if they're a marginal upgrade (and in our case, they weren't).

A bunch of us sat here last summer and said that replacing Gaunce/Archibald/Dowd types with Beagle/Schaller types for $5 million more would not be a substantial improvement, and that those stupid contracts would prevent us from acquiring better players in future offseasons. And then - shockingly - they weren't a substantial improvement, and their cost prevented us from signing an actual good player in Nyquist. *EXACTLY WHAT WE SAID WOULD HAPPEN*

To sit here and say 'NYA NYA WHERE IS ALL-STAR GAUNCE NOW?' and not understand this argument at all and how we screwed ourselves over indicates just an incredible, embarrassing lack of critical thinking.

Like, San Jose could most definitely have spent $2-3 million last summer signing a bottom-6 guy who was a bit better than cheap, home-grown Barclay Goodrow. But then they wouldn't have Evander Kane or Erik Karlsson.

And how did Benning's team of All-Stars in Gudbranson, Pouliot, Schaller, Gagner, Leipsic, and Beagle turn out?

 

[Horse McHindu]

Let’s also point this out per min played - Biega averages more hits, points,shots and fewer giveaways. While starting in the defensive zone about 51%of the time while Myers started only 46% of the time in the dzone.

In fact Myers has fewer hits than biega last year as an absolute value (101 hits for biega vs 97 for Myers) in 39 more games and about 900 more mins. So yea I’m not sure how you can say Myers is clearly better and he’s clearly not more physical.

So based on the numbers of hits we can already call @Hindustan Smyl eye test that Myers is more physical into question correct?

Yep, that’s fair. Fine - Biega plays more physical then Myers. I stand corrected. Is there any way to determine the QUALITY of those hits?

For example, I’m pretty sure that if I punched you in the face 101 times, it would be far less painful than if Francois Ngannou or in-prime Mike Tyson were to punch you in the face 97 times.

 

[xtra]

Yep, that’s fair. Fine - Biega plays more physical then Myers. I stand corrected. Is there any way to determine the QUALITY of those hits?

For example, I’m pretty sure that if I punched you in the face 101 times, it would be far less painful than if Francois Ngannou or in-prime Mike Tyson were to punch you in the face 97 times.

I’ll find the QUALITY of those hits the same time you find the QUALITY of the extra 8points Myers got while playing power play time.


For example, I’m pretty sure that if I punched you in the face 30 times, it would be far less painful than if Francois Ngannou or in-prime Mike Tyson were to punch you in the face 20 times.

 

[Addison Rae]

You make a good point.

As far as Sutter goes, he was relatively injury-Free during his time in Pittsburgh (I think this is correct.....I cant look up this info right now), but he became inexplicably injury prone in Vancouver. He had a really good year for us in 2017-2018 when he was relatively healthy, but he’s definitely struggled here.

I think Benning’s motivation for trading for a center at the time was sound. The idea of bringing in a new center was so that Horvat could be insulated a little more. Horvat could continue to grow his game on the 3rd line and then take over the 2nd line C position when he was ready.......while still having a “2B” center playing on the 3rd line that could step back onto the 2nd line if Horvat was struggling (which is very common for 2nd year players - hence the term “sophomore slump.”).

The original idea was that Nick Bonino could be that guy for us, but he wasn’t unfortunately. Bonino is and was an excellent 3rd line center but was clearly a fish out of water in a 2nd line capacity. Hence- he needed to be traded to India.

The idea and motivation behind trading for a guy like Sutter was the correct decision to make, but Benning and his Pro Scouting Team May have targeted the wrong guy in Brandon Sutter.

Nick Bonino was a 2nd line centre on a Canucks team that had 100+ points. Bonino played in tough deployment, produced good two-way results, defensive metrics and had very good even strength production all while being on one of the best contracts in the NHL.

That trade was absolutely moronic, like I don’t understand how you can ever say that Brandon Sutter was a more suited 2nd line centre than Nick Bonino.

This isn’t revisionist history either I was the biggest Bonino fan on HFCanucks in 2014/2015 and my post history backs it up.

 

[iceburg]

I really do wish that the management discussion was kept to the management thread. It seems that all discussions on moves devolve into a "management is terrible" vs "no it's not" argument.

In the spirit of the thread: Myers is better than Hutton. Hutton is a third pairing D-man who has had and will have stretches of great play and stretches of bad play over his career. Over the last year he has shown himself to be a legitimate NHL D-man after some doubt. Myers is and always has been a solid NHL D-man who can play well in a top 4 role.

 

[MS]

Yep, that’s fair. Fine - Biega plays more physical then Myers. I stand corrected. Is there any way to determine the QUALITY of those hits?

For example, I’m pretty sure that if I punched you in the face 101 times, it would be far less painful than if Francois Ngannou or in-prime Mike Tyson were to punch you in the face 97 times.

Seriously, do you actually watch the games?

Biega knocked multiple opposing players out of games last year with clean hits. He isn't big, but the guy hits like a defender version of Jordin Tootoo.

 

[Horse McHindu]

Every attempt to "insulate the youth" Benning has made so far, has put more pressure on the youth to carry the old geezers who get out scored 2:1 on their young backs.

No argument from me there. Benning and his Pro Scouting team have had a lot of misses during his time here. I can admit these things, and am still confused as to why you think I am more biased than most others on here. Granted, I am a little biased. When something negative looks like will happen, I like to give something a lot of time before passing final judgement on it (Eriksson signing). Conversely, I’m quick to give praise when something good looks like it will occur (ie Hoglander selection). I’m biased because I’m a Canucks fan.

Contrast this to many Benning haters that will give Benning almost nothing. You call me unflinching in my praise to Benning, but what about the dozens upon dozens of Benning haters on here that are unflinching in their praise of the Gillis regime without admitting any fault of his of any kind (not talking about you by the way - you can admit shit about Gillis and I can respect that).

 

[settinguptheplay]

While that maybe true in some context; the fact that he still had less in 900 more mins shows he’s not more physical.

There is more to being physical than hits. Clearing a forward in front of the net will not qualify as a hit but it is certainly physical.

But I love Biega. And I would be fine with him on our bottom pairing. I am not making the argument that Myers is some physical beast. Just that using hits as a measure of effectiveness carries no more weight than the plus minus stat. Lucic hits a ton. But half of them only put him out of position and have little positive impact on the game.

 

[Horse McHindu]

Seriously, do you actually watch the games?

Biega knocked multiple opposing players out of games last year with clean hits. He isn't big, but the guy hits like a defender version of Jordin Tootoo.

Not most games no. I live in China and so most of the games that I watch are the condensed versions on You tube.

So what is your stance on Biega exactly? He’s criminally underrated and should be a #5 defenseman in this league? If he’s even half as good as you think he is, then why hasn’t a “smart” GM like Yzerman or Sakic tried to trade for him yet?

 

[krutovsdonut]

What world view is that?

edit. Also do provide links so we can all this evidence.

sorry to hear your googles is broken. here's a snippet of what you could find if you made an effort.


“Ronnie saw him early and was a loud voice for him right from the start — even before any of us had seen him,” recalled Canucks general manager Jim Benning. “He was in my office and said ‘we’ve really got to watch this guy.’ He loved his skill and hockey sense.

 

[Fire Benning]

Hutton easily.

 

[Horse McHindu]

That trade was absolutely moronic, like I don’t understand how you can ever say that Brandon Sutter was a more suited 2nd line centre than Nick Bonino.

I never said that. What I said was that management clearly felt that Bonino wasn’t suitable to be a 2nd line center, and so they targeted a guy who they thought would be. They thought it would be Sutter. It didn’t work out.

Bonino was decent here, but I think you might be overrating him here. Perhaps my memory is foggy, but I seem to recall Bonino getting off to a very good start and then fading badly for most of the season. He also completely disappeared in the playoffs did he not?

Bonino is and was an excellent 3rd line center but he was clearly not ready to assume the duties of a 2nd line C (which is why we traded for him in the the first place).

 

[Addison Rae]

I never said that. What I said was that management clearly felt that Bonino wasn’t suitable to be a 2nd line center, and so they targeted a guy who they thought would be. They thought it would be Sutter. It didn’t work out.

Bonino was decent here, but I think you might be overrating him here. Perhaps my memory is foggy, but I seem to recall Bonino getting off to a very good start and then fading badly for most of the season. He also completely disappeared in the playoffs did he not?

Bonino is and was an excellent 3rd line center but he was clearly not ready to assume the duties of a 2nd line C (which is why we traded for him in the the first place).

Their solution to adding a 2nd line centre was acquiring a worse player on a worse contract that plays the same position.

It was a completely backwards move.

 

[settinguptheplay]

Seriously, do you actually watch the games?

Biega knocked multiple opposing players out of games last year with clean hits. He isn't big, but the guy hits like a defender version of Jordin Tootoo.

Seriously. Can you post without the need to personally attack someone?

"Jesus christ. I thought you were a better poster than this" and the above quote on this page alone.

How do you expect to have a conversation with people if you start every reply with an insult. Is this how you communicate in real life? I certainly doubt it.

For all the heat Hindustan takes I have seen him concede several times. Hold his own against the team tank barrage. And never feel the need to attack anyone on a personal level. Not saying he hasn't. I just have not witnessed it.

 

[Horse McHindu]

Their solution to adding a 2nd line centre was acquiring a worse player on a worse contract that plays the same position.

It was a completely backwards move.

Agreed.

The Pro Scouting team targeted the wrong player.

An upgrade over Bonino was certainly needed, but Sutter shouldn’t have been the guy to target.