passive voice
Registered User
- Jun 16, 2009
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Forget contract value and term: if you ran a team aspiring to decent hockey this upcoming season, and you could use a LHD or RHD equally, would you rather have Ben Hutton or Tyler Myers.
Myers or Hutton, This Year
- Thread starter passive voice
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Hutton. Myers isn't significantly better than Hutton but Hutton actually has a chance of taking a step forward this year.
It's a gamble but I think it's one worth taking. Worst case scenario is Hutton is a slight downgrade on Myers, best case scenario he could be a decent upgrade.
It's a gamble but I think it's one worth taking. Worst case scenario is Hutton is a slight downgrade on Myers, best case scenario he could be a decent upgrade.
Myers. RHD who play on the right side are simply harder to find. I think there's also a higher chance of Edler playing more games than Tanev. Without Myers, After Tanev and Stetcher we're left with the recent UFA signings, Biega, Rafferty, and Chatfield. On the left, after Edler and Hughes you have guys like Sautner, Juolevi, and Brisebois,
The Vasili Jerry
Serenity now!
PuckMunchkin
Very Nice, Very Evil!
Very very close if you ignore contracts.
I guess Hutton by a tiny margin because at his age likely to improve vs Myers whose underlying data is trending the opposite direction.
I guess Hutton by a tiny margin because at his age likely to improve vs Myers whose underlying data is trending the opposite direction.
production wise not alot of difference but i would prefer myers simply because hes a rhd and fills a void on the team
Myers for me and it isn't even close. I'm no Benning supporter, and I'm not saying I like the Myers signing, but comparing the 2 players I easily take Myers over Hutton.
Horse McHindu
They call me Horse.....
Making an absurd claim that Ben Hutton is better than Tyler’s Myers doesn’t stink of a Bias towards Mike Gillis? Really?
I’ve heard the following comments over the past two years:
“Alex Biega is a better defenseman than Tyler Myers right now.”
“Brendan Gaunce is criminally underrated and would be a good 4th Line player in other organisations.”
“Darren Archibald is criminally underrated and his underlying statistics indicate that he’s a great 4th Line player that could even play on the 3rd line of a good team.”
By the way, how is Archie doing down there in Ottawa?
And *I* am the one that is being biased?
Really?
The guys from above weren’t in any way being biased towards Gillis?
Really?
Tyler Myers, and it's not even close. I'd even take Jordie Benn over Ben Hutton: Hutton's +/- has been abysmal his whole career. And anyone claiming that it's just bad luck, that's fine; I'm glad that his bad luck is off the team.
It’s not so much bad luck as it is a bad partner. He had an even +/- last season when he wasn’t with Gudbranson.
PuckMunchkin
Very Nice, Very Evil!
What does Gillis have to do with this? Jim Benning is our GM and he has been unable to identify a single useful Dman for us in his tenure.
If you want to, you can take a look at the data and see what a piss poor player Tyler Myers is. But I dont think you like to include data that doesnt support your preconceived opinion.
Do you remember how Gudbranson's reputation as a solid stay at home guy who plays physically and stands up for his team mates JUST. WOULD. NOT. DIE?
This is the same kind of deal. Myers is big and has a draft pedigree, his play on the ice does not reflect his reputation.
On the topic of bias;
Every single move Jim makes, you defend.
Just as a reminder, this is what Jim has done for us: https://tinyurl.com/yxcobmlv
Dont use +/- please. Its a useless stat.
The Vasili Jerry
Serenity now!
I think that’s a much better and more realistic poll to have: Benn or Hutton. The games I went to I saw Hutton let the forward cut inside on him time and time again. He also wasn’t fast enough to stay with them. I’m not overly concerned at losing Hutton.
PuckMunchkin
Very Nice, Very Evil!
I dont think I trust your "eye test" over data.
Horse McHindu
They call me Horse.....
Go to Team 1040 (like right now) and listen to Ray Ferraro’s latest interview. Go to the 8th minute mark and listen for about two minutes. Ray talks about how well Tyler Myers played well when Buff got hurt and had to temporarily move up the line-up. Ray was watching every single Jets game at the time.
What you “Advanced Stats” guys don’t get, is that there’s a lot more than just “the numbers.” The numbers are very useful, but they don’t paint the whole picture of what goes on. A true hockey analyst understands that. A 25 year old kid on the internet, does not.
So most hockey pundits and experts are wrong about Myers being a 2nd pairing caliber dman, while a bunch of 25 year old kids on the internet are correct because “underlying numbers” tell 100% of what is going on with a player. Got it.
As far as Gudbranson goes, he looked good in Florida and looked pretty decent in Pittsburgh when he got traded there. Sometimes - a player simply doesn’t fit a teams’ system.
Roussel was great in Dallas but then struggled when Hitchcock became the coach. A well known “potato analytics guy” claimed that Benning was out of his mind for targeting the “washed up” 29 year old Roussel, and yet Roussel has himself a great year here last season and it shut him up pretty quickly.
Much of the time, it’s more about a player being compatible to a teams’ system and how he is deployed as opposed to just “the numbers.”
The Vasili Jerry
Serenity now!
You’re entitled to your opinion as much as I am. That’s all I’m giving. Not trying to be smart, but is there data for positioning of defenseman relative to whom they are defending against? Im genuinely curious if there’s data on those types of things. I’m not discounting analytics, as I try to use them as much as I can in all aspects of life, but if you think hockey is at a point where all you have to do is look at its limited data to tell an entire story then I think you’re short-changing yourself.
Vote for Rory
Registered User
- Nov 13, 2004
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The fact that some people are picking Hutton is hilarious.
PuckMunchkin
Very Nice, Very Evil!
Again see what you are doing here?
You like "pundits" and "experts" when they fit what you want to believe and slander them when they say something you dont wanna hear.
What does age have to do with this? You can be old and be completely oblivious to hockey and vice versa.
Some players are better suited for playing with Malkin and Crosby.
Gudbransons stats were okay-ish when we sheltered him by playing him with Pettersson on the ice.
Roussel contract is bad. He got two major injuries last year alone. His style of play, this isnt a surprise to anyone who follows THE DATA OF PLAYERS OF HIS ILK.
Also if we dont have his contract on the books we could have Nyquist in our top6 right now.
I dont think you are a bad person. But your logic is consistently flawed and you dont seem to care that it is flawed. It leads you to being consistently on the wrong side of arguments.
Why is that? You think Myers is a good defense man?
Horse McHindu
They call me Horse.....
The only media that I’ve really gone after is a certain “militant” blog in Vancouver which spews and perpetuates lies. Of course I’m not going to agree with everyone’s opinions out there, but I still respect them if there is no obvious agenda behind what they are saying.
True. By that same token, you can be a young punk on the internet spreading a bunch of BS about how Hutton is better than Myers because you like Mike Gillis more than Jim Benning......,and use one dimensional advanced stats to back up these garbage claims.
That above point is a very fair criticism and I’ll give you that, but that’s not what Potato boy was arguing. Potato boy clearly stated Roussel was completely done in the present tense.....solely based on how he performed in Dallas. Big difference.
Meanwhile, the Canucks have “mysteriously” been trending in the right direction and have been accumulating some very good future building blocks while the Usual Suspects continue to pray on the downfall of the Benning-managed Canucks for god knows what reason.
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Pip
Registered User
What’s the point of this poll? Did the salary cap disappear? Every player’s usefulness is inherently linked to his contract.
Really? I think it is more funny people are picking Myers. It’s all just reputation. For the argument that he stepped up when big Buff went down its actually wrong as his role didn’t. His coach didn’t trust him.
I do think Jordie Benn is also better than Myers, as is Biega. He’ll Schenn might be better simply for the fact he didn’t try and do too much and was fine in his roll.
PuckMunchkin
Very Nice, Very Evil!
They use stats. When Jim does well the say he did well. When Jim does poorly, as he mostly does, as our record during hims time here undisputedly reflects, they say he did poorly.
Nobody bats 100, but most of the predictions by Canucks Army has come true. We are at the bottom of the league. Loui Eriksson was a disaster. Gudbranson was a disaster. Beagle didnt help our bottom 6 one bit. Schaller was a disaster. Sbisa was a disaster.
Roussel.. they got wrong, he was useful when he was healthy.
I think that is fair. He was wrong about Rousell. No need to call him names.
Again... Why do you give a f*** about Jim Benning? You should want what is best for the Canucks, not whats best for Jim Benning? Can you expain to me this weird set of priorities to me just once?
No they are not. The team was equally bad as it was last year. This has been shown to you Im sure, and youve ignored it every time.
The west was unusually weak this year, and still we managed to stagnate.
Please... Try to help me understand why you feel Jim Benning is so important?
Horse McHindu
They call me Horse.....
The point totals say otherwise.
I’ve disregarded it because they are excuses being made by people that clearly have a biased agenda against the Benning-managed Canucks.
Very interesting how other teams’ injuries were taken into consideration in this utterly garbage analysis and not ours.
PuckMunchkin
Very Nice, Very Evil!
Crap.. I had a long post written for you as a response...
TLDR;
Sorry for being far more hostile than necessary.
NHL is going to start tracking players but data wont be available to us.
Best sources for data that Ive found.
Zone Entriy data and A LOT OF OTHER STUFF etc:
Tableau Public
Deployment:
https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com
Your basic possession stats:
https://www.hockey-reference.com
