Myers or Hutton, This Year

[PuckMunchkin]

The point totals say otherwise.

I’ve disregarded it because they are excuses being made by people that clearly have a biased agenda against the Benning-managed Canucks.

Very interesting how other teams’ injuries were taken into consideration in this utterly garbage analysis and not ours.

We are 2nd worst team in the league during Jims time here.

Seriously. Please explain your amazing level of investment in Jim Bennings GM career?

 

[Blackjackz]

... What you “Advanced Stats” guys don’t get, is that there’s a lot more than just “the numbers.” The numbers are very useful, but they don’t paint the whole picture of what goes on. A true hockey analyst understands that. A 25 year old kid on the internet, does not...

So most hockey pundits and experts are wrong about Myers being a 2nd pairing caliber dman, while a bunch of 25 year old kids on the internet are correct because “underlying numbers” tell 100% of what is going on with a player. Got it.

25-year-old kids on the Internet, most of whom who have never played the game.

Advanced stats have become a useful tool, but first-hand knowledge and experience for the game have been downgraded so much by the stats community that it is embarrassing. And this is what gives rise to absurd comparisons of Hutton and Myers.

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

Ignoring contracts? Myers by a mile, and I like Hutton.

 

[Canadian Canuck]

Hutton, easily.

Boggles my mind how you can sit there and say Ben Hutton is a better hockey player than Tyler Myers. The Benning hate is very evident. Myers is better in every single aspect of the game and if he played for anyone else but Vancouver you’d agree.

 

[Horse McHindu]

We are 2nd worst team in the league during Jims time here.

Seriously. Please explain your amazing level of investment in Jim Bennings GM career?

All professional sports organisations go through a rebuild.

A rebuild will typically take 5-7 years.

If Gillis had drafted competently during this time here, perhaps that core wouldn't have fallen off so drastically.............a core that was largely built by Brian Burke by the way.

 

[Addison Rae]

Myers is better but the “let’s look at what this media person says because they know more than 25 year old advanced stats guys reminds me of this”

 

[PuckMunchkin]

All professional sports organisations go through a rebuild.

A rebuild will typically take 5-7 years.

If Gillis had drafted competently during this time here, perhaps that core wouldn't have fallen off so drastically.............a core that was largely built by Brian Burke by the way.

No please dont dodge this, I want to understand. Why Jim?

 

[Horse McHindu]

No please dont dodge this, I want to understand. Why Jim?

Why Jim?

Because - he's the GM of the Canucks and I choose to support him as a fan.

I think he's done some good and bad things.........much like Gillis.

I think he has major strengths and weaknesses..........much like Gillis.

I think Benning's Pro Scouting has been just as lackuster as Gillis' drafting (which ultimately lead to Gillis getting fired, and leading the Canucks to fall off a cliff at the start of 2014).

Both Benning and Gillis have strengths and weaknesses.

For some reason, Gillis is praised as an infalliable God on here that was the biggest reason why 2011 happened (untrue - see Burke Brian). Benning on the other hand, is bashed endlessly on here with many posters choosing not to give him credit for ANYTHING. Pettersson selection? But Brackett! Leivo trade?!?! But Dubas! Boeser pick!?! But Lucic!

The double standard is ridiculously confusing and disturbing to me.

Perhaps I should be asking *you* this question.

Why Mike? Why do you care about Mike so much? Why does he get a free pass for his brutal drafting and brutal post June 15th 2011 trades? (sans Horvat trade).

 

[Bgav]

Saying that Biega is better than Myers is hilarious. LOL

 

[TruGr1t]

Myers is way better offensively at this point. Hutton may be a bit better defensively. They both have pretty strong transition stats, if I recall.

I think that salary aside, Myers is the no brainer choice here given team need. Our blue line is brutal offensively.

Now I dunno if the difference justifies the salary, but there it is.

 

[MS]

Making an absurd claim that Ben Hutton is better than Tyler’s Myers doesn’t stink of a Bias towards Mike Gillis? Really?

I’ve heard the following comments over the past two years:

“Alex Biega is a better defenseman than Tyler Myers right now.”

“Brendan Gaunce is criminally underrated and would be a good 4th Line player in other organisations.”

“Darren Archibald is criminally underrated and his underlying statistics indicate that he’s a great 4th Line player that could even play on the 3rd line of a good team.”

By the way, how is Archie doing down there in Ottawa?

And *I* am the one that is being biased?

Really?

The guys from above weren’t in any way being biased towards Gillis?

Really?

This is the 4th time now I've asked you to present a counter-argument to those claims that isn't just a blatant appeal to authority and you're completely unable to do so.

It's kind of a joke to make fun of an opinion that you lack the knowledge and hockey understanding to even form a counter-argument to.

Seriously, explain how Tyler Myers was a better NHL player last year than Alex Biega without using 'experts say so'.

Explain how having Tim Schaller at $2 million on our roster was better than having Gaunce or Archibald at $600k. Explain how Schaller's 18-19 performance was better than Gaunce and Archibald's 17-18 performance. If my opinion is so bad, this shouldn't be hard.

 

[joelCAMEL]

What’s the point of this poll? Did the salary cap disappear? Every player’s usefulness is inherently linked to his contract.

Certain posters have a low opinion of Myers' hockey skill and have attached a negative opinion on his contract. Contract aside, the poll will rate the hockey skill of a newly signed UFA vs the hockey skill of a unqualified RFA, in terms of poster opinions.

If Hutton wins, then the Canucks made a mistake. If Myers wins, then the only argument is his contract.

Unfortunately, you may still think this poll is flawed because the contract is not attached, but it is easy to see you are against the Myers signing.

I voted for Myers.

 

[passive voice]

What’s the point of this poll? Did the salary cap disappear? Every player’s usefulness is inherently linked to his contract.

You're right of course. I'm just interested in the perception of the two players.

 

[Horse McHindu]

Saying that Biega is better than Myers is hilarious. LOL

This is the 4th time now I've asked you to present a counter-argument to those claims that isn't just a blatant appeal to authority and you're completely unable to do so.

It's kind of a joke to make fun of an opinion that you lack the knowledge and hockey understanding to even form a counter-argument to.

Seriously, explain how Tyler Myers was a better NHL player last year than Alex Biega without using 'experts say so'.

Explain how having Tim Schaller at $2 million on our roster was better than having Gaunce or Archibald at $600k. Explain how Schaller's 18-19 performance was better than Gaunce and Archibald's 17-18 performance. If my opinion is so bad, this shouldn't be hard.

I don’t get what you want me to say here.

Asking me to show you “proof” that Tyler Myers is a better hockey player than Alex Biega would be like asking me to show you “proof” that Natalie Portman is a better looking woman than Rosie O’Donnell. Just use your eyes!! That’s your proof!

Look at Myers’ point totals! Do you think Alex Biega would be able to get those point totals if he was used in a similar role? Can Biega skate well? Make a good first pass? Produce well on a PP? Be used as a top PK’er? Be a physical presence? Have a hard shot? No. Not at 2nd pairing caliber level.

Now - if you are arguing that Biega is better defensively than Myers and might be a better “bang for his buck” than Myers (i.e. Biega at 800K vs Myers at 6M), then I might be inclined to agree with you.

To say that Biega is a better overall player than Myers is just ridiculous however.

If I choose to say that Natalie Portman is a better looking woman than Rosie O’Donnell, that’s not me just “trying to appeal to authority.” That’s just the f***ing truth based on common sense.

 

[NoShowWilly]

Myers. he better be.

 

[MS]

I don’t get what you want me to say here.

Asking me to show you “proof” that Tyler Myers is a better hockey player than Alex Biega would be like asking me to show “proof” that Natalie Portman is a better looking woman than Rosie O’Donnell. Just use your eyes!! That’s your proof!

Look at Myers’ point totals! Do you think Alex Biega would be able to get those point totals if he played in the same positions? Can Biega skate well? Make a good first pass? Produce well on a PP? Be used as a top PK’er? No.

Now - if you are arguing that Biega is better defensively than Myers and might be a better “bang for his buck” than Myers (i.e. Biega at 800K vs Myers at 6M), then I might be inclined to agree with you.

To say that Biega is a better overall player than Myers is just ridiculous however.

If I choose to say that Natalie Portman is a better looking woman than Rosie O’Donnell, that’s not me just “trying to appeal to authority.” That’s just the ****ing truth based on common sense.

Absolutely Myers is better on the PP. No argument there. However, on a team where he'll probably be the 3rd PP option after Hughes and Edler, that really isn't that important when it comes to this comparison.

At ES? Biega *DOES* duplicate Myers' point totals. 23 ES points/82 GP over the past 2 seasons. Myers last two seasons have been 18 and 22 ESP/82 GP. And Biega put up those numbers from similar and possibly even tougher minutes.

So, given that you've just granted that Biega is better defensively than Myers, and given that he duplicates Myers' production offensively at ES ... how the hell is Myers such a comically better player than Biega? Like, how much weight are you putting on Myers' ability to be a decent option for the 2nd unit PP?

And eye tests are a funny thing. Some people's eye test tells them that Myers is 6'8 and that's awesome. My eye test tells me that Biega is a far, far better skater, has better gap control, better defensive fundamentals, and is a harder-hitting, more competitive and more physical player.

And I note you don't mention the Gaunce/Archibald vs. Schaller stuff.

 

[Horse McHindu]

Absolutely Myers is better on the PP. No argument there. However, on a team where he'll probably be the 3rd PP option after Hughes and Edler, that really isn't that important when it comes to this comparison.

At ES? Biega *DOES* duplicate Myers' point totals. 23 ES points/82 GP over the past 2 seasons. Myers last two seasons have been 18 and 22 ESP/82 GP. And Biega put up those numbers from similar and possibly even tougher minutes.

So, given that you've just granted that Biega is better defensively than Myers, and given that he duplicates Myers' production offensively at ES ... how the hell is Myers such a comically better player than Biega? Like, how much weight are you putting on Myers' ability to be a decent option for the 2nd unit PP?

And eye tests are a funny thing. Some people's eye test tells them that Myers is 6'8 and that's awesome. My eye test tells me that Biega is a far, far better skater, has better gap control, better defensive fundamentals, and is a harder-hitting, more competitive and more physical player.

And I note you don't mention the Gaunce/Archibald vs. Schaller stuff.

I was editing in the Gaunce/Schaller/Archie comments as you were typing your post.

My comments didn’t show up for some reason.

No argument from me at all that Schaller wasn’t an NHL caliber player last year. Having said that, Gaunce and Archibald aren’t NHL caliber players either. Would they have been better value than Schaller last year however? (given how much we paid Schaller?).

Absolutely.

In Schaller’s defense however, he produce reasonably well during his final year in Boston.......something that Gaunce has never been able to do at the NHL level.

 

[Horse McHindu]

25-year-old kids on the Internet, most of whom who have never played the game.

Advanced stats have become a useful tool, but first-hand knowledge and experience for the game have been downgraded so much by the stats community that it is embarrassing. And this is what gives rise to absurd comparisons of Hutton and Myers.

 

[krutovsdonut]

lol, this thread premise is peak hfboards.

can't wait for chayka to assemble the can't miss all star starting line up of gaunce, shinkaruk and archibald on forward, and hutton and biega on defence with lack in goal to finally get its due. so many bad gms out there failing to spot all this obvious overlooked talent because they don't understand stats. just a shame really. if only they would hire some posters here they would be winning so many cupz.

in the mean time, i'll be over in the fire holland thread in the oilers subforum looking for a comparatively serious and sane discussion.

 

[racerjoe]

Boggles my mind how you can sit there and say Ben Hutton is a better hockey player than Tyler Myers. The Benning hate is very evident. Myers is better in every single aspect of the game and if he played for anyone else but Vancouver you’d agree.

You think Juolevi played well last year... I think I will trust my evaluation more.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Why Jim?

Because - he's the GM of the Canucks and I choose to support him as a fan.

I think he's done some good and bad things.........much like Gillis.

I think he has major strengths and weaknesses..........much like Gillis.

I think Benning's Pro Scouting has been just as lackuster as Gillis' drafting (which ultimately lead to Gillis getting fired, and leading the Canucks to fall off a cliff at the start of 2014).

Both Benning and Gillis have strengths and weaknesses.

For some reason, Gillis is praised as an infalliable God on here that was the biggest reason why 2011 happened (untrue - see Burke Brian). Benning on the other hand, is bashed endlessly on here with many posters choosing not to give him credit for ANYTHING. Pettersson selection? But Brackett! Leivo trade?!?! But Dubas! Boeser pick!?! But Lucic!

The double standard is ridiculously confusing and disturbing to me.

Perhaps I should be asking *you* this question.

Why Mike? Why do you care about Mike so much? Why does he get a free pass for his brutal drafting and brutal post June 15th 2011 trades? (sans Horvat trade).

You assume I liked Mike Gillis. I did not at the time. I think it was stupid to place a player agent with no previous managerial experience in to the GM position.

He doesnt get a free pass from me, especially on his drafting. He does not give him self a free pass on not revamping the scouting sooner.

Jim Benning isnt data driven, do we agree on that?

Elias Pettersson was 110% data driven pick. Someone talked him in to picking the skinny tall kid because the spread sheets showed he was the most likely to succeed.

edit. Ill continue on a keyboard....

Meh... I lost my motivation.

Why do you "choose" to be a fan of Jim Benning instead of the Vancouver Canucks?

 

[MS]

I was editing in the Gaunce/Schaller/Archie comments as you were typing your post.

My comments didn’t show up for some reason.

No argument from me at all that Schaller wasn’t an NHL caliber player last year. Having said that, Gaunce and Archibald aren’t NHL caliber players either. Would they have been better value than Schaller last year however? (given how much we paid Schaller?).

Absolutely.

In Schaller’s defense however, he produce reasonably well during his final year in Boston.......something that Gaunce has never been able to do at the NHL level.

Gaunce has 9 points in his last 40 games which is basically identical to what Schaller did in his 'big' 22-point season, especially when you consider that Schaller had something like 5 points on EN goals.

Gaunce and Archibald were 100% NHL calibre players in their time here in 17-18. That should be absolutely indisputable. They played very tough 3rd line minutes and generated excellent results. My argument was pretty simply that these guys were clearly capable of being used in 4th line roles for cheap and that signing other expensive 4th liners was absolutely stupid. And sure enough, the 4th liners we signed were worse, and the cap hits of those worse 4th liners prevented us from signing a 60-point winger in Nyquist who apparently wanted to come here.

Like, literally exactly what I said would happen happened. I can't believe anyone is actually arguing this.

 

[Hit the post]

lol, this thread premise is peak hfboards.

can't wait for chayka to assemble the can't miss all star starting line up of gaunce, shinkaruk and archibald on forward, and hutton and biega on defence with lack in goal to finally get its due. so many bad gms out there failing to spot all this obvious overlooked talent because they don't understand stats. just a shame really. if only they would hire some posters here they would be winning so many cupz.

in the mean time, i'll be over in the fire holland thread in the oilers subforum looking for a comparatively serious and sane discussion.

My answer to this thread is why not both? Because we have too much cap space allocated to the bottom six trash (forwards). Having BOTH Myers and Hutton enables you to have three usable pairings that’ll likely work (one of which will include Hughes). Replace that high price trash (eg., Schaller, etc.) with minimum wage trash lets you have the “luxury” of a #5 like Hutton.

 

[krutovsdonut]

You assume I liked Mike Gillis. I did not at the time. I think it was stupid to place a player agent with no previous managerial experience in to the GM position.

He doesnt get a free pass from me, especially on his drafting. He does not give him self a free pass on not revamping the scouting sooner.

Jim Benning isnt data driven, do we agree on that?

Elias Pettersson was 110% data driven pick. Someone talked him in to picking the skinny tall kid because the spread sheets showed he was the most likely to succeed.

edit. Ill continue on a keyboard....

didn't ron delorme champion pettersson based on the eye test and scouting reports?

 

[Horse McHindu]

lol, this thread premise is peak hfboards.

can't wait for chayka to assemble the can't miss all star starting line up of gaunce, shinkaruk and archibald on forward, and hutton and biega on defence with lack in goal to finally get its due. so many bad gms out there failing to spot all this obvious overlooked talent because they don't understand stats. just a shame really. if only they would hire some posters here they would be winning so many cupz.

in the mean time, i'll be over in the fire holland thread in the oilers subforum looking for a comparatively serious and sane discussion.