most overrated player?

[Suiteness]

This thread has taken an interesting direction.

Would you guys say Claude Makélélé was overrated and a passenger in his day?

 

[Corto]

This thread has taken an interesting direction.

Would you guys say Claude Makélélé was overrated and a passenger in his day?

He was basically Kante.

I loved him.

 

[East Coast Bias]

This whole discussion of which of Kroos and Thiago are chokers/big game players just makes me happy I'm not a Bayern fan.

This is when you know things have gone too well for a club lately.

 

[Luigi Habs]

This thread has taken an interesting direction.

Would you guys say Claude Makélélé was overrated and a passenger in his day?

Makalele was underrated for the large part of his career. Only when he moved to RM that people realized he was really good. As Corto said, similar to Kante.

 

[Power Man]

Makelele was fantastic

But Perez preferred overrated Beckham

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

This whole discussion of which of Kroos and Thiago are chokers/big game players just makes me happy I'm not a Bayern fan.

Both good players. Doesn't matter what I think about either, it's just a discussion.

I respect what Kroos brings and what he's achieved. I think Thiago can be excellent but isn't there yet.

This thread has taken an interesting direction.

Would you guys say Claude Makélélé was overrated and a passenger in his day?

Lol they'd call him a passenger. Only if you do step-overs and fall over at every tackle and score bundles of goals against bottom-feeding teams - that's when you're a real finisher and driver.

Consistency, efficiency, reliability? Nah, passenger. How dare Makelele play so deep (as the tactics and team needed him)?? Why wasn't he styling on the likes of Augsburg or Girona?

 

[Cassano]

This thread has taken an interesting direction.

Would you guys say Claude Makélélé was overrated and a passenger in his day?

No, because he was the best player on those RM and Chelsea teams. Very far from a passenger.

 

[Ceremony]

Makalele was underrated for the large part of his career. Only when he moved to RM that people realized he was really good. As Corto said, similar to Kante.

Incorrect. Makelele single-handedly destroyed England's ability and desire to produce midfielders who cross the halfway line.

 

[Evilo]

Kanté is much better with the ball than Makélélé. But he doesn't his tactical science yet.

 

[Moncherry]

Pique and Ramos.

 

[Arcade Fire]

I'm on board with this. He had a terrific year, and then a horrible one, and this year he's cooled off significantly. I know he's nearly irreplaceable for Chelsea but I'd sell him and acquire Isco/James/X player instead. Hazard's far too overrated imo.

His first 2 years in England evoked shades of Cristiano Ronaldo-esque excitement at times, in his third year he was absolutely dominating and providing even when Mourinho went full-Mourinho and Chelsea played terrible and boring football for 3 or 4 months coasting to the title. After that year I don't think it was unfair to call Hazard the #3 in the world. What more did he need to do?

Ofc last season was one to forget, nobody will deny that.

This season he's been nothing short of amazing, though, and ever since Costa's drop in form in January Hazard's been carrying Chelsea in a way I have never seen Isco or James play for an extended period of time. Is Hazard the #3 right now? I don't know, man. He's definitely up there around the top 5, though.

 

[Corto]

Is Hazard the #3 right now? I don't know, man. He's definitely up there around the top 5, though.

He's not top-3 and hardly top-5 either.

Football isn't only the attacking players.
I mean, even on Chelsea, I think Kante might be the most important player.

But lets say the Barca trio is in front of him (because they are).
Ronaldo, for all his struggles, still scores goals willy nilly.
Bale had injury problems this year, but surely overall people still rate him over Hazard.

Lets ignore other attacking players from top clubs, like Lewa, Higuain, Dybala, Cavani, Griezmann, etc.

Lets concentrate only on the defenders and midfielders...
Bonucci, Modric, Vidal, Thiago, Marcelo, Carvajal, Verratti, Kroos, etc.

I'm not saying all of these guys (and a whole bunch of others) are "better" than Hazard, but you could easily make a case that they either are, or are on par at the very least.

Hazard, while fantastic this year, has done very little that I'd rate him above the players listed above - and some others.
Same tier, sure - but calling him a top-5 is a (big) stretch - IMO anyway.

 

[Evilo]

Suarez isn't above Hazard this season. Bale neither.

 

[Corto]

Suarez isn't above Hazard this season. Bale neither.

Bale had injury issues, to be fair, and before he got injured he was playing the best football out of the BBC trio.
Since then, Ronaldo is poaching away, unqiue at scoring, but looking very pedestrian other than that..., but Benzema - for all the criticism his finishing has gotten this season - has been absolutely critical for Real's link-up play.
THAT'S why Morata doesn't play more and sometimes I wonder whether the average football fan understands even the basics of the game.
Real plays through Marcelo, Carvajal, Modric, Kroos and Benzema - yet people still take out their pitchforks every time Benzama doesn't score a goal.

(I digress there, just wanted to elaborate on the BCC trio)

Suarez has 24 goals and 12 assists in La Liga, numbers are there.
But I agree, he's been off at key times this season - including now vs Juventus.

Overall though, Bale vs Hazard isn't much of a contest for me. Bale's only a year older, has been far more consistent and has accomplished more in his career, individually and team-wise.
(but this year, you're right, no arguments there)

...

But my point stands, Hazard - while fantastic - has done very little to be called top-3 or top-5 player in the world.
Especially since people just simply forget about non-forwards when talking about who the best is.
In a big batch of players who are world class - sure... So don't take it as bashing him, he is a fantastic player, having a great year... But top-3/5... No.

 

[Evilo]

You're confusing who you think is the better player over his career, and who's the best player this season.
Hazard at #3 isn't far-fetched.

And you know as well as I do that forwards are basically the only ones considered for awards.

Frankly, who has had a great season this year among forwards?
Messi, Ronaldo so so, Hazard, Dybala, Cavani, Lemar, Griezmann, Neymar, Higuain, Lewandowski... I'm sure I'm forgetting some.
How is Hazard not top 5 here? He probably is top 3 in fact since players like Cavani will be underrated even though he's having a crazy season.

 

[Havre]

He was basically Kante.

I loved him.

Not sure if I agree. Kante is much more "in your face" harassing the guy on the ball. Makelele first and foremost covered space. Much more similar in style to Carrick defensively than Kante in my opinion.

I'm not sure if the Makelele role really exists in today's football. First you had the sweeper. Then the sweeper moved in front of the central defenders (basically the Makelele-role). Now you might argue Busquets still plays like Makelele defensively in terms of covering space behind Iniesta and Rakitic, but it seems like a dying breed at the moment.

I can see why Makelele divide opinion too some extent though. He was so limited on the ball you needed other midfield/attacking players who could fill that "gap" by being that much better in possession. Personally I think he was just that good defensively he was still worth it. If I was a manager I would gladly build a team around Makelele.

 

[Vamos Rafa]

Makelele was fantastic

But Perez preferred overrated Beckham

He also preferred Beckham because Ronaldinho was too ugly to play for Real.

 

[Corto]

You're confusing who you think is the better player over his career, and who's the best player this season.
Hazard at #3 isn't far-fetched.

And you know as well as I do that forwards are basically the only ones considered for awards.

Frankly, who has had a great season this year among forwards?
Messi, Ronaldo so so, Hazard, Dybala, Cavani, Lemar, Griezmann, Neymar, Higuain, Lewandowski... I'm sure I'm forgetting some.
How is Hazard not top 5 here? He probably is top 3 in fact since players like Cavani will be underrated even though he's having a crazy season.

Fair enough, if its this season alone, Bale's out, obviously.

Cavani I'd rate at least as good as Hazard. He's produced ridiculous numbers, gives his all every night, and did well in Europe as well.
I know PSG's season will be forever marred by the 6-1 loss, but in all honesty, it was such a freak game, PSG was ridiculously unlucky and got shafted by the refs.
Yeah, they were poor, but it took a historic amount of things to set up properly for the Barca comeback.
Just because he plays in France and the english media don't write about him doesn't mean he isn't having a smashing season.

As far as forwards go, I'd go like this - this season only:
Messi (he's just better than anyone, he just is...)
In no order: Ronaldo, Neymar, Dybala, Cavani, Hazard, Griezmann, Higuain, Lewandowski, Suarez...

I'm sure I'm forgetting some, but all of them have pros and cons this season, it's hard to single either out.
Ronaldo, for example, has ranged from atrocious to ordinary to "okay" in link-up play, he's really struggled this season in that regard - but the dude just keeps piling on goals.

Like I said, as far as forwards go, I'd lump him (Hazard) in the 2-10 crowd, but I wouldn't say he's better (or worse) than either of those guys.
(again, this season only - normally I'd rate Ronaldo as the clear #2 to Messi's #1 and then the rest)

Also, I'm not talking about awards (you're right there, only forwards get consideration), but there's at least 10-15 players I'd put in that group as far as quality goes, just in different positions.
If we're talking about player quality, not awards.

 

[Evilo]

If we're playing about player quality, then Neymar and Suarez would never be top 3 IMO. There are plenty of important players in other positions and I'd argue Pique and Busquets have been at the very least as important as those two for Barca. And that's just for Barca.

 

[Corto]

If we're playing about player quality, then Neymar and Suarez would never be top 3 IMO. There are plenty of important players in other positions and I'd argue Pique and Busquets have been at the very least as important as those two for Barca. And that's just for Barca.

Overall, Busquets has been crucial - though he's struggled this season, along with the entire midfield.
Pique is a bit hit and miss at times - for me anyway, he makes some quietly questionable plays (I know not a lot of people concentrated on Barca's defense vs Juve, but he made a horrible play on Dybala's first goal, for example).
A top defender, sure, but I don't rate him as a defender in the way I rate Busquets as a DM.

But in essence, I agree - an in-form Busquets, for example, is as important to Barca as any player not named Messi.

 

[les Habs]

Suarez has been hot and cold this season. At his best at times and then just off at others. Still an incredible season by most people's standards.

Neymar has been very good. During the first half of the season or slightly more he was doing a lot of string pulling and that's where Evilo I think he was getting so much praise. I mean he was coming up as much as Messi for a while there I felt.

Busquets has not been himself for much of the season. Not all bad, but just generally a big difference than last season. Luiginho was incorrect in his commentary about Busquets last season, but this season he's been inconsistent.

Pique has been good this season. Not perfect, but still at a good level. Anyway, I'd love to know what the criticism of him on Dybala's first goal would be. Marking him tighter? Disagree with that. Only thing I can see is not moving to close him down once he had the ball, but I still think the shot goes around him anyway. Anyway, Pique has been very important the past two seasons now (on top of in the past).

 

[Corto]

Pique has been good this season. Not perfect, but still at a good level. Anyway, I'd love to know what the criticism of him on Dybala's first goal would be. Marking him tighter? Disagree with that. Only thing I can see is not moving to close him down once he had the ball, but I still think the shot goes around him anyway. Anyway, Pique has been very important the past two seasons now (on top of in the past).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uS5p0DRDA7I

He's standing miles away from Dybala, the goal is on him 100%.
He is suppose to position himself in a way that Dybala can never turn; either before the ball is played, or stay close enough to be able to close him down after the ball is played.
And I'm saying that as someone who played CB through all of Croatia's youth leagues.

There are two players in front of Cuadrado, he doesn't need to help. (if it was one player, than yeah, you stay on the goal side of Dybala and hope you're quick enough to make a play)
Other 3 Juve players in the box are tightly marked, it's just Dybala (pause at 0.03) and Pique standing there and looking at him. He wasn't ready for Dybala to receive that ball, he misread what Cuadrado was going to do and simply wasn't ready to at least take a step or two towards Dybala.

He could've easily stood a bit forward and upfield (like 0,5m to the touchline and closer to Dybala) and be in a position to stay in the crossing lane and still cover Dybala.
He just wasn't ready for Dybala to get the ball, that's all there is to it.

He also made a bad read on the 2nd Dybala goal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRjIa_TFVAc

Umtiti (now he's looking absolutely fantastic) had Higuain covered, Mathieu has Cuadrado. There's no reason for Pique to drop down so low and leave Dybala alone.
(that said, he made a bad read and didn't look for Dybala until it was too late - at least he didn't seem lost on the play like Masche, who just sort of jogged back - until the ball was actually on way to Dybala).

It doesn't mean Pique isn't a top defender - he definitely is.
But on those two goals he could have done better, and definitely should have on the first one.

Both of those goals were down to bad defending - if you got 8 defenders and 5 forwards and one of the forwards gets to turn and shoot 7m out on a set defence, it means someone didn't do their job. Or if someone is completely alone like Dybala on the 2nd goal with two Barca guys not aware of him before it's too late.

 

[les Habs]

I agree he could have been closer, but I'm not sure marking too close would have been the best as staying with Dybala wouldn't have been easy for him. Watching it again as I did I thought he could have reacted quicker, but again I think the shot still goes around him and Dybala did the entire play in literally one second.