most overrated player?

TheMoreYouKnow

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Kroos can pass the football in a way that Xabi Alonso would have loved to be able to do. But Kroos does have some deficits as well, I think Alonso at his best was more likely to take over a game and really put a stamp on it.

Kroos is a guy who will be in threads like this because he's going to leave you a bit underwhelmed in a lot of games. He can do so much but gives off a vibe of someone who gets a bit blase about games.
 

TheMoreYouKnow

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It is true, not because Xabi isn't a good passer but because I've never seen a passer with the overall accuracy of Kroos. It's the one thing he is the best in the world at and by not a little IMO.
 

Cassano

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Easy to suggest that Kroos is the best passer when all you see him do is side passes.

Kroos doesn't bring enough of an attacking threat for me to warrant 'best mid in the world' tag that's been ridiculously been thrown around the past few seasons. He is nothing special at defending either. He's a boring player that doesn't really make much of a difference, besides maybe provide stability to an already established team and not look out of place.

There are a maybe a dozen midfielders I'd rate higher than him.
 

Vipers31

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It is true, not because Xabi isn't a good passer but because I've never seen a passer with the overall accuracy of Kroos. It's the one thing he is the best in the world at and by not a little IMO.

Well, that's impossible for me to agree with. I've watched Kroos for years with Bayern, and it took just a couple months to see that Xabi was the clearly better long range passer. Maybe Kroos isn't entirely incapable of that, but he just doesn't utilize that, which isn't a positive in that regard.
 

Deficient Mode

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Easy to suggest that Kroos is the best passer when all you see him do is side passes.

Kroos doesn't bring enough of an attacking threat for me to warrant 'best mid in the world' tag that's been ridiculously been thrown around the past few seasons. He is nothing special at defending either. He's a boring player that doesn't really make much of a difference, besides maybe provide stability to an already established team and not look out of place.

There are a maybe a dozen midfielders I'd rate higher than him.

You know that passing is the most important offensive contribution that the vast majority of central midfielders will make, right? Unless they're Arturo Vidal.
 

Corto

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Love 2 watch old highlights of Toni "can't score" Kroos being a passenger on a super team



I didn't realize there were so many people here who found Kroos overrated.
Some of the comments are just mindboggling to me (passenger? side passes?)...

This is a guy who's been a fixture in the starting 11 of Bayern and Real and Germany since 2010, since he was 20, winning absolutely everything there is to win in that time.

Surely, somewhere along the way, one of the coaches would've seen through the fraud that he is and at least had him on the bench, if not out of the club...?
Because he's always started; under Heynckes, Van Gaal, Pep, Ancelotti, Benitez, Zidane, Löw...
Always, under everyone, winning trophies along the way.

But apparently he's fooled all those losers, eh...

...

Kroos is a very brainy player, his excellent positional play allows him to not have to run about and do flying tackles defensively... He doesn't have the pace nor the acceleration to go by people, and he rarely even tries it.

Don't think of Kroos as a Modric or Vidal type midfielder, because he isn't.

Think of him as a Pirlo type, and maybe you'll realize why he's so highly rated in the football world.
 

Evilo

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I said he had the potential to be #3 when he was 20 years old. Don't remember anyone saying he was #3 at any point in his career since Neymar is comfortably set there.
Though as I said, if you switch Hazard and Neymar right now, I'm not sure Neymar is still 3rd and Hazard wouldn't be rated there.
 

Suiteness

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I said he had the potential to be #3 when he was 20 years old. Don't remember anyone saying he was #3 at any point in his career since Neymar is comfortably set there.
Though as I said, if you switch Hazard and Neymar right now, I'm not sure Neymar is still 3rd and Hazard wouldn't be rated there.

After his 2014-15 season, he was getting that kind of hype from some.

I think this year has seen Neymar leapfrog Suarez for that #3 spot, yes.
 

WhiskeySeven*

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There was talk for awhile, from some, that Hazard was #3 in the world behind Leo and CR7.

If that isn't overrated, I don't know what is.
I'm on board with this. He had a terrific year, and then a horrible one, and this year he's cooled off significantly. I know he's nearly irreplaceable for Chelsea but I'd sell him and acquire Isco/James/X player instead. Hazard's far too overrated imo.

I didn't realize there were so many people here who found Kroos overrated.
Some of the comments are just mindboggling to me (passenger? side passes?)...

This is a guy who's been a fixture in the starting 11 of Bayern and Real and Germany since 2010, since he was 20, winning absolutely everything there is to win in that time.

Surely, somewhere along the way, one of the coaches would've seen through the fraud that he is and at least had him on the bench, if not out of the club...?
Because he's always started; under Heynckes, Van Gaal, Pep, Ancelotti, Benitez, Zidane, Löw...
Always, under everyone, winning trophies along the way.

But apparently he's fooled all those losers, eh...

...

Kroos is a very brainy player, his excellent positional play allows him to not have to run about and do flying tackles defensively... He doesn't have the pace nor the acceleration to go by people, and he rarely even tries it.

Don't think of Kroos as a Modric or Vidal type midfielder, because he isn't.

Think of him as a Pirlo type, and maybe you'll realize why he's so highly rated in the football world.
Some so-called Bayern fans still argue that he's a passenger. They say this because either (a) they don't understand football or (b) they don't want to admit that losing Kroos was a terrible decision.

Bayern are facing Real tonight, we'll see Thiago vs Kroos and we'll see which team benefits more from their playmaker. I'm a Bayern supporter and want nothing more than for them to surprise and go through, but Kroos was excellent in the first leg and will be excellent in the second leg. Thiago is much less consistent (this is in fact his first season in a Bayern shirt that he's really impressed) and therefore much less reliable. Kroos is a metronome, if he was a Barcelona player or in the PL we'd never hear the end of it.

Calling a playmaker who always makes the right pass, the right touch, and the right set-piece a passenger is unbelievable to me. He's the definition of a supporting player, a player with a multiplier effect. He's not a finisher no, and he's not a dribbler but he allows and enables other players to do these things in a way that not many (less than 5) other midfielders can. Reliable, consistent, intelligent.
 

Vipers31

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Some so-called Bayern fans (...)

Oh, grow up. Seriously. Questioning someone's fandom because they don't share your appreciation for a former player.

Calling a playmaker who always makes the right pass, the right touch, and the right set-piece a passenger is unbelievable to me.
Yeah, when you blindly believe that he "always" does everything right, you're going to end up with a distorted view.

He's the definition of a supporting player, a player with a multiplier effect.
And what I said was that the term "passenger" is too harsh, and catalyst would be better - which is exactly what you're describing now. "Supporting players" are by definition susceptible to being passengers, because when the guys that actually drive play don't drive it, the support goes into nothing. When you're a "multiplier", and you end up with nothing to multiply, you are relying on what others give you. Between a driver and a passenger, that's firmly closer to the passenger side, going by your own description.
 
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WhiskeySeven*

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Oh, grow up. Seriously. Questioning someone's fandom because they don't share your appreciation for a former player.
Wasn't referring to you actually. I know you're a supporter. On /r/fcbayern there are some real idiot fans.

Yeah, when you blindly believe that he "always" does everything right, you're going to end up with a distorted view.
Clearly it's an exaggeration but the point is that he's an exceedingly clever player. Pirlo or Xavi didn't make the right pass every time either, but did it often enough that folks started taking it for granted. Same thing is happening here.

And what I said was that the term "passenger" is too harsh, and catalyst would be better - which is exactly what you're describing now. "Supporting players" are by definition susceptible to being passengers, because when the guys that actually drive play don't drive it, the support goes into nothing.
Passenger implies a negative - implies he doesn't do his part. Catalyst is much better, but you could be even more accurate and call him what he is: the leading playmaker on the best club team in the world and the reigning World Cup champions.

No one in their right mind would call Pirlo or Xavi or whoever else ****ing passengers. But the disrespect toward Kroos is unbecoming - you either get it or you don't. You can think he's overrated all you want, fine, but he's not a passenger and he's earned a starting role on the best teams in the world. He's by definition a top, top midfielder. And Real is a team that is not short of replacement playmakers - Isco and James are rotting on the bench in favour of Kroos ffs.
 

Corto

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And what I said was that the term "passenger" is too harsh, and catalyst would be better - which is exactly what you're describing now. "Supporting players" are by definition susceptible to being passengers, because when the guys that actually drive play don't drive it, the support goes into nothing. When you're a "multiplier", and you end up with nothing to multiply, you are relying on what others give you. Between a driver and a passenger, that's firmly closer to the passenger side, going by your own description.

It works both ways. If Ronaldo doesn't have Modric and Kroos, you think he scores as many goals in the last 3 years?
But BBC are the finishers, they get more spotlight.

The entire Real philosophy currently revolves around smart, quick passing and off-ball movement. And it's only possible with players who can make the transition from defense to offense in a few moves.

Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9QJPBYFjvg
Noone even remembered Casemiro taking the ball or Modric making 3 quick passes with Kroos etc. to get Real going after the goal was scored. People overlook this as the camera focuses on the goalscorer, maybe the guy who got the assist etc...
All these small plays tend to go unnoticed, whether its Kroos, Pirlo, Xavi etc.

These are the guys who make your team tick. The "catalysts". The guys who make the transition from defence to offence.
They'll never get the credit, especially the non-flashy ones like Kroos, but the team doesn't work without them.
 

WhiskeySeven*

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It works both ways. If Ronaldo doesn't have Modric and Kroos, you think he scores as many goals in the last 3 years?
But BBC are the finishers, they get more spotlight.

The entire Real philosophy currently revolves around smart, quick passing and off-ball movement. And it's only possible with players who can make the transition from defense to offense in a few moves.

Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9QJPBYFjvg
Noone even remembered Casemiro taking the ball or Modric making 3 quick passes to get Real going after the goal was scored. People overlook this as the camera focuses on the goalscorer, maybe the guy who got the assist etc...
All these small plays tend to go unnoticed, whether its Kroos, Pirlo, Xavi etc.

These are the guys who make your team tick. The "catalysts". The guys who make the transition from defence to offence.
They'll never get the credit, especially the non-flashy ones like Kroos, but the team doesn't work without them.
It could EASILY be argued that playmakers are actually the Drivers of their team. In England they call the centre of the pitch the Engine Room for a reason.

How else could you possibly describe transition and playmaking but driving the offense?
 

Vipers31

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Wasn't referring to you actually. I know you're a supporter. On /r/fcbayern there are some real idiot fans.
Okay, sorry if I was a bit trigger-happy there, with the number of Bayern fans so small around these parts. My bad.

Clearly it's an exaggeration but the point is that he's an exceedingly clever player. Pirlo or Xavi didn't make the right pass every time either, but did it often enough that folks started taking it for granted. Same thing is happening here.

(...) No one in their right mind would call Pirlo or Xavi or whoever else ****ing passengers.
There's no doubting the cerebral aspect, but I'm not quite sure the parallels to Pirlo/Xavi are quite there. It took these guys a long time before they got consideration as elite midfielders, and honestly, it took them until their later 20s to really utilize their passing ability to become guys that make a difference on their own. They became actual playmakers, actual drivers along the way. They weren't that all along.

Passenger implies a negative - implies he doesn't do his part.
It definitely implies a negative, but I don't think it means that he doesn't do his part. That would sound more like "dead weight" to me, as far as sports analogies go. A passenger is just a guy who isn't driving the vehicle, IMO.

Catalyst is much better, but you could be even more accurate and call him what he is: the leading playmaker on the best club team in the world and the reigning World Cup champions.
I wouldn't agree with that, but that's because of how subjective the term playmaker, at least to me, is. I think catalyst, or your version of multiplier, captures his game and his impact a lot better. I don't think every pass is a play, and I don't think Kroos makes a particularly high number of "plays".

He's by definition a top, top midfielder. And Real is a team that is not short of replacement playmakers - Isco and James are rotting on the bench in favour of Kroos ffs.
Certainly not doubting that he's a top, top midfielder, regardless of where he sits on the driver-passenger-scale, and what it particularly means. :) I wouldn't say Isco is quite "rotting on the bench" this year - between these two, Kroos is getting the equivalent of a little under 60 and Isco a little over 30 minutes, which isn't quite in the bench-rotting category for me. But for the most part, they are very different types of midfielders. Kroos fits that Real team better, and it's probably fair to say that he is better at what he does than Isco/James are at what they do, at this point.
 

Deficient Mode

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There's no doubting the cerebral aspect, but I'm not quite sure the parallels to Pirlo/Xavi are quite there. It took these guys a long time before they got consideration as elite midfielders, and honestly, it took them until their later 20s to really utilize their passing ability to become guys that make a difference on their own. They became actual playmakers, actual drivers along the way. They weren't that all along.

I think in the case of Pirlo and Xavi it was more a matter of more fans recognizing how important passing is with the success of Guardiola's Barca. Before ~10 years ago, everyone thought central midfielders had to run fast, be strong, and make hard tackles. Then you have a midfield of Busquets, Xavi, and Iniesta - all of whom are either slow or small - running over everyone in every competition, and it makes you rethink that. For sure, I think Xavi peaked in his late 20s, but he if you watch the old Barca matches from pre-2006 you will see he was already a very effective player.

Kroos is imo the true successor to Pirlo. Both moved into a deeper playmaking role after starting out as attacking midfielders. Only Kroos was also super effective as a 10, where Pirlo struggled. Xabi Alonso is significantly less creative and strategic than either of them, which their career assist and key pass numbers support. He only really has his long ball accuracy in common with them.
 

TheMoreYouKnow

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The Pirlo comparison is a good one. Of course, Kroos, as lazy as he can be, actually runs more than Pirlo did the last 4-5 years of his top level career.

I find Kroos an often frustrating player but I can only reiterate that his passing is world world class. That doesn't mean he'll always do a job for you because he does have weaknesses, but you gotta appreciate that one talent for what it is.
 

WhiskeySeven*

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thiago.png


But with the help of Robben, Lewandowski, and Ribery he sure can style on Bremen, Augsburg, and BMG.

:facepalm:
 

Vipers31

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You might want to watch more of our games if you think he relies on Robben and Ribery and is limited to "styling" on those teams. That's a real tough thing to ask, though, I know.
 

WhiskeySeven*

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You might want to watch more of our games if you think he relies on Robben and Ribery and is limited to "styling" on those teams. That's a real tough thing to ask, though, I know.
I think lesser teams are preoccupied with Bayern's other players and it allows an overrated player in Thiago to look better than he is, and get rated higher than he is.

I've seen enough - I watch way more EPL now that I live there but I have BT, I watch Bayern. Thiago turned some good performances this year and I've supported him, but after tonight, no way. He has a long way to go and the next BIG game he'll have in a Bayern shirt is too far away for me to look forward to.
 

Deficient Mode

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This whole discussion of which of Kroos and Thiago are chokers/big game players just makes me happy I'm not a Bayern fan.
 

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