Most misleading record holder?

[MadLuke]

How about Boucher with the longest shutout streak of all time?

If this mislead someone to thing that Boucher had a great career, yes, but do not see it.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Does being the record-holder of a statistic that wasn't always kept count? If so, Thomas' single season SV% record.

How is that stat misleading? It's pretty straight forward isn't it?

Mike Green's plus/minus in in 10 or Housley's career totals are more misleading IMO.

Or Brian Boucher, at least I think it's him, having the longest shutout streak (modern) in minutes.

Or Broduers 3 wins in 3 games with a SO, .966 save%, 1.00 GAA yes Mike from Ottawa in 10

 

[tony d]

Brodeur's all time wins and shutouts records.

 

[hyzer23]

All of Brodeur's records.

someone tell me how brodeur is not a top player???

im not saying he's the best goalie ever, but hes put up great numbers and has had a relatively healthy career...being able to play the amount of minutes in the nhl like that is pretty impressive

 

[MadLuke]

someone tell me how brodeur is not a top player???

im not saying he's the best goalie ever, but hes put up great numbers and has had a relatively healthy career...being able to play the amount of minutes in the nhl like that is pretty impressive

Also Roy played with a good if not better team at the same time without winning more game so, if you do not consider number 1 and 2 in the winning record misleading I really don't see it.

 

[GuineaPig]

Also Roy played with a good if not better team at the same time without winning more game so, if you do not consider number 1 and 2 in the winning record misleading I really don't see it.

But the difference is that Roy was never utilized by his team the same way Brodeur was. Roy eclipsed 65 games twice; Brodeur has done so thirteen times. In fact, no other goalie has ever been utilized by his team to the extent that Brodeur has.

 

[MadLuke]

But the difference is that Roy was never utilized by his team the same way Brodeur was. Roy eclipsed 65 games twice; Brodeur has done so thirteen times. In fact, no other goalie has ever been utilized by his team to the extent that Brodeur has.

So it is normal for him to have some Most X records for a goalie, if he was played a lot.

Having the most win records tell someone that this goaler was good enough to play a lot of games every years on a good team.

Sure if someone conclude anything else from it, it would be misleading, if someone use it to say that Brodeur is the best goaltender ever, so yay he was misleaded, but it is more a bad use of the winning stat for a goaler than a misleanding by himself record imo.

 

[MadLuke]

In fact, no other goalie has ever been utilized by his team to the extent that Brodeur has.

I mean, this is exactly what the most win records is all about ? Being the most use goalie by a good team in the history.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Well just to show you Brodeur was for the most part an elite goalie his whole career:

2nd team all-star ('97, '98, '06, '08)
1st team all-star ('03, '04, '07)

Vezina finishes (top 3 finishes only): 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3

Considering Glenn Hall is the only goalie with more year end all-star selections I think its safe to say Brodeur did consistently great over the bulk of his career. You don't get 200 more wins than every other goalie (minus Roy) by playing on the "right team". Its obvious to me Brodeur is far from a compiler and it shouldn't shock anyone that he rests atop many lists

Brodeur will always be difficult to read.

He played some years on teams that were so good defensively playing 78 games was a cake walk. He had a playoff game shutout with 6 saves. He won 2 Vezina trophies when he wasn't in the top 10 in save percentage. His ability to handle the puck was easily the best ever, but he wasn't the best at stopping pucks. How do you weigh that?

Obviously he's considered an all-time great. But his wins, and to a certain extent, shutout records are a little misleading. They are team numbers, more so than usual because of the defesive ability of the Devils throughout Brodeur's career.

 

[KingGallagherXI]

Well just to show you Brodeur was for the most part an elite goalie his whole career:

2nd team all-star ('97, '98, '06, '08)
1st team all-star ('03, '04, '07)

Vezina finishes (top 3 finishes only): 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3

To be fair I think at least a few of these selections/vezinas weren't diserved.

He definitely diserved the 2007 and 2008 Vezina, no question about it.

He definitely diserved the 2nd All-Star in 97, and somewhat diserved it in 98.

But in 2003 he didn't diserve the Vezina or even a 2nd All-Star selection. It could have went to Vokoun, Luongo, Kolzig, Roy, Giguere, Belfour. He won solely because of his 41 wins and 9 shutouts, which are team dependent stats.

In 2004 Luongo got flat out robbed. Brodeur should have gotten then 2nd All-Star.

In 2006 Luongo should've won the 2nd All-Star as well.

So added up that would be 2 x 1st team All-Star (07 and 08) and 2 x 2nd team All-Star (97 and 98). I think the voters were biased towards wins and shutouts which are not individual stats. Compare Brodeur's save percentage finishes to Roy and he's really not in the same league, yet he has more All-Star selections and Vezinas.

 

[GuineaPig]

I think the 2007 and 2008 Vezinas should've gone to Luongo and Vokoun respectively, although Brodeur was probably second-most deserving in both years.

 

[Plural]

To be fair I think at least a few of these selections/vezinas weren't diserved.

He definitely diserved the 2007 and 2008 Vezina, no question about it.

He definitely diserved the 2nd All-Star in 97, and somewhat diserved it in 98.

But in 2003 he didn't diserve the Vezina or even a 2nd All-Star selection. It could have went to Vokoun, Luongo, Kolzig, Roy, Giguere, Belfour. He won solely because of his 41 wins and 9 shutouts, which are team dependent stats.

In 2004 Luongo got flat out robbed. Brodeur should have gotten then 2nd All-Star.

In 2006 Luongo should've won the 2nd All-Star as well.

So added up that would be 2 x 1st team All-Star (07 and 08) and 2 x 2nd team All-Star (97 and 98). I think the voters were biased towards wins and shutouts which are not individual stats. Compare Brodeur's save percentage finishes to Roy and he's really not in the same league, yet he has more All-Star selections and Vezinas.

That is pretty harsh, dont you think.

 

[OvenChicken8]

Cogliano with the most consecutive overtime gwg. (3)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

More valuable to his team? Almost certainly. Better overall performance? I don't think so.

I haven't seen any convincing evidence that playing lots of games affects goaltender performance, so much of the difference was that Thomas was simply played less.

How about the fact that if playing lots of games did not affect goaltender performance, every NHL coach would play his starting goaltender all 82 games?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I mean, this is exactly what the most win records is all about ? Being the most use goalie by a good team in the history.

Exactly. If people think "most wins = best goalie ever," then the record is misleading them. But if they recognize it for what it is: A great team relied on Brodeur more than any other goalie in history and he did his part in helping them win, then it is not.

 

[Padan]

Francis being 4th in all-time scoring. He has went from very underrated to overrated because of this IMO.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Exactly. If people think "most wins = best goalie ever," then the record is misleading them. But if they recognize it for what it is: A great team relied on Brodeur more than any other goalie in history and he did his part in helping them win, then it is not.

TDMM, what took you so long getting in on this?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

But in 2003 he didn't diserve the Vezina or even a 2nd All-Star selection. It could have went to Vokoun, Luongo, Kolzig, Roy, Giguere, Belfour. He won solely because of his 41 wins and 9 shutouts, which are team dependent stats.

Brodeur was a Hart trophy finalist in 2003, as well, and he received more 1st place votes than Markus Naslund, finishing barely behind Naslund in overall voting. So it seems the writers and GMs agreed.

Brodeur was recognized for being the backbone of the 2nd best team in the Eastern Conference. Scott Stevens was on the visible decline, Niedermayer hadn't emerged yet, and the team's leading scoring had a whopping 57 points. Brodeur was their regular season MVP by far.

Even though many posters here do not value a player's contribution to team success, the awards voters still do.

In 2004 Luongo got flat out robbed. Brodeur should have gotten then 2nd All-Star.

2004 is the only Vezina of Brodeur's that is questionable IMO, but how can you say Luongo got flat our robbed? When can you remember the VEzina going to a goalie on a team that fails to make the playoffs? I think it would if the goalie was setting personal records, but the only record that Luongo set was "shots against," and I think many people were dubious of the always-high shot totals coming out of Florida. Kiprusoff actually finished second in Vezina voting in 2004 (though Luongo got the 2nd Team AS). Kiprusoff would have run away with this Vezina if he had played the full season, but he didn't.

In 2006 Luongo should've won the 2nd All-Star as well.

What? Why? He wasn't even top 3! 2006 was Kiprusoff, then the field, and Brodeur probably did get the majority of "the field" votes due to name recognition, but how's that different from any other established star?

So added up that would be 2 x 1st team All-Star (07 and 08) and 2 x 2nd team All-Star (97 and 98). I think the voters were biased towards wins and shutouts which are not individual stats. Compare Brodeur's save percentage finishes to Roy and he's really not in the same league, yet he has more All-Star selections and Vezinas.

Well, obviously the voters care more about contribution towards helping a team win than they do about a single statistic that only tells part of the picture.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Francis being 4th in all-time scoring. He has went from very underrated to overrated because of this IMO.

Agree. I see people bringing up Messier being 2nd in all-time scoring, but at least Messier was a superstar for the majority of his career.

I loved Ron Francis, but I don't think anyone ever got the impression he was an all-time elite player when watching him.

 

[GuineaPig]

How about the fact that if playing lots of games did not affect goaltender performance, every NHL coach would play his starting goaltender all 82 games?

That's a good question. It would be interesting to see a coach's reasons. I think Fuhr holds the record at 79 games (though back in the day, some goalies would play the entire season for their team).

While I'm not sure there is definitive proof of fatigue affecting performance, there certainly seems to be the notion that it does.

Exactly. If people think "most wins = best goalie ever," then the record is misleading them. But if they recognize it for what it is: A great team relied on Brodeur more than any other goalie in history and he did his part in helping them win, then it is not.

Yeah, I agree with that assessment. The problem is, lots of people think most wins = best goalie, including lots of people who should know better (like professional sports journalists). And it affects other goalies too; see the amount of people saying Osgood should be a HHOFer based on his wins and cups.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Exactly. If people think "most wins = best goalie ever," then the record is misleading them. But if they recognize it for what it is: A great team relied on Brodeur more than any other goalie in history and he did his part in helping them win, then it is not.

Can't that be said about every record though: If you "recognize it for what it is," then it won't mislead you? It wasn't an hour after Win #552 that the media crowned Brodeur the greatest goaltender of all-time. There are some very influential people who don't understand the Wins record, TDMM.

Full credit to Brodeur for leading the NHL in Wins as often as he did, but that is a big reason why he received Vezina and Hart votes in some of those otherwise middle-of-the-pack seasons, and often times there was a goalie like Belfour or Turco or Giguere or Gerber who finished right behind him in Wins despite playing 10-20 fewer games.

On HOH, almost nothing is celebrated more than 1st and 2nd Team All-Star selections, and that is when high GP goaltenders (who collect most of the votes, unless someone cracks an otherworldy SPCT) become misleading even to us.

Barring unusual circumstances, goaltenders play every playoff game or every must-win game down the stretch. They're all capable of stringing 20+ games in a row. What I'm saying is that the greatest advantage of those high GP goaltenders (and the endurance that affords them opportunities for high Win and Shutout totals) throughout the regular season is pretty much nullified when the games start to count.

I mean, it's not as if Brodeur played all 6 games in the 2000 Finals while Belfour only played 5 - and that's why the Devils won. Just remember that the next time we count his 1997 and 2006 seasons as being equally good just because they were both 2nd Team selections. 1997 Brodeur makes 2006 Brodeur look like an AHLer.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Brodeur was a Hart trophy finalist in 2003, as well, and he received more 1st place votes than Markus Naslund, finishing barely behind Naslund in overall voting. So it seems the writers and GMs agreed. Brodeur was recognized for being the backbone of the 2nd best team in the Eastern Conference. Scott Stevens was on the visible decline, Niedermayer hadn't emerged yet, and the team's leading scoring had a whopping 57 points. Brodeur was their regular season MVP by far.

Even though many posters here do not value a player's contribution to team success, the awards voters still do.

______________________________________________________________________

Brodeur had a .914 SP in 2003, not in the top 10. His GA was 2.02, good for 4th.

Turco's numbers were .932 and 1.72. That's a huge difference in both categories.

Corey Schwab, the Devils backup, played in 11 games all season, starting 9. How do you stay sharp with so little game action, right?

His numbers were .933 and 1.47. A whopping difference indeed.

Broduer played 73 games. That's apparently the key.

 

[ssh]

Brodeur is three losses away from having the most regular season losses of all NHL goalies.
He'll be the winningest and the losingest goalie of all time, therefore also the best and the worst goalie of all time.

 

[begbeee]

Joe Juneau holds record most assists in a season by a left wing with 70.
He topped 70 points since record exactly once.

 

[ES]

- Mikko Leinonen sharing playoff assist record in one game.
- Jeff Reese having single game point record for goaltenders

Team record:
- Colorado Avalanche from 1995-96 sharing the record of most shorthanded goals allowed in one season