Most misleading record holder?

[Johnny Engine]

- Mikko Leinonen sharing playoff assist record in one game.
- Jeff Reese having single game point record for goaltenders

Team record:
- Colorado Avalanche from 1995-96 sharing the record of most shorthanded goals allowed in one season

Not sure I agree with these being misleading. I think anyone can look at the first two records as random aberrations no matter how little they know about hockey, and the third one suggests that said team played a firewagon style, which is completely true.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Sittler's record of 10 pts in one game.

He was good, but not nearly as good as that record implies.

 

[MadLuke]

Joe Juneau holds record most assists in a season by a left wing with 70.
He topped 70 points since record exactly once.

I think the 1992-1993 season overall is misleading.

 

[MadLuke]

third one suggests that said team played a firewagon style, which is completely true.

The team also had two forward playing at the blue line when in powerplay, Sakic and Ozolinsh

 

[MS]

Well just to show you Brodeur was for the most part an elite goalie his whole career:

2nd team all-star ('97, '98, '06, '08)
1st team all-star ('03, '04, '07)

Vezina finishes (top 3 finishes only): 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3

Considering Glenn Hall is the only goalie with more year end all-star selections I think its safe to say Brodeur did consistently great over the bulk of his career. You don't get 200 more wins than every other goalie (minus Roy) by playing on the "right team". Its obvious to me Brodeur is far from a compiler and it shouldn't shock anyone that he rests atop many lists

Vezina voting is based on statistics and goalie statistics are hugely skewed by the team in front of that goalie.

Roman Turek once finished 2nd in Vezina voting by virtue of being an average goalie playing 70 games for a great team.

For those of us coming from the ‘Brodeur is hugely over-rated’ perspective, he was a good goalie who had a series of out-of-whack Vezina finishes by being a ‘good’ goalie consistently playing 70+ games behind a great team with the best defensive system in the league. And the team which has consistently for the last 15 years been SH the fewest times of any team in the league.

His Vezinas in 2003 and 2007 were ridiculous.

This argument has been done over and over again, and people will be on one side of the fence or the other. That isn’t going to change.

Brodeur will always be difficult to read.

He played some years on teams that were so good defensively playing 78 games was a cake walk. He had a playoff game shutout with 6 saves. He won 2 Vezina trophies when he wasn't in the top 10 in save percentage. His ability to handle the puck was easily the best ever, but he wasn't the best at stopping pucks. How do you weigh that?

Obviously he's considered an all-time great. But his wins, and to a certain extent, shutout records are a little misleading. They are team numbers, more so than usual because of the defesive ability of the Devils throughout Brodeur's career.

Absolutely.

And again, the fact that he played on teams that were shorthanded so seldom really inflated his stats.

 

[crobro]

stan makita as the all time s coring leader for european born players.

he came to canada when he was 6

played all his minor and junior hockey in canada

why is he still refferred to as a foreign born player.

 

[MadLuke]

Jaromir Jagr..... ?

 

[crobro]

till jagr topped makita for the lead yeah sure but makita is still at press time 2 or 3 on the all time list.

is rod langway american or the greatest taiwanese born player ever

 

[Big Phil]

Just out of curiousity if you were to name the best goalie of the 2000s who would it be? This should be a rhetorical question.

Also, why is Brodeur getting bashed for his Vezinas? If you pulled someone aside and asked them who the best goalie in the world was in 2003 or 2004 would it be anyone else but Brodeur? Think about how nervous everyone was when Brodeur missed the one game in the World Cup and the inexperienced Luongo took his place. Think of how relieved we all were when he came back for the World Cup final in 2004.

This talk about Brodeur being a "good" goalie is really weird, comparable to an episode of the Twilight Zone. The guy was the best goalie in the world for a substantial time period.

 

[Hammer Time]

This isn't due to longevity, but it's still a misleading record:
George Hainsworth - 22 shutouts in one season.

 

[GuineaPig]

Just out of curiousity if you were to name the best goalie of the 2000s who would it be? This should be a rhetorical question.

Also, why is Brodeur getting bashed for his Vezinas? If you pulled someone aside and asked them who the best goalie in the world was in 2003 or 2004 would it be anyone else but Brodeur? Think about how nervous everyone was when Brodeur missed the one game in the World Cup and the inexperienced Luongo took his place. Think of how relieved we all were when he came back for the World Cup final in 2004.

This talk about Brodeur being a "good" goalie is really weird, comparable to an episode of the Twilight Zone. The guy was the best goalie in the world for a substantial time period.

It would be Luongo in 2003-04. And as the best of the '00s. EDIT: For example, Brodeur isn't even in the top 10 in EV Sv% for the '00s. See here.)

And I don't think Brodeur was legitimately "the best" ever in his career. Dividing his career into rough chunks he would've been always behind one of Hasek (1994-2000), Luongo (2000-06), or Vokoun/Thomas (2006-present), imo.

 

[MadLuke]

.930% in playoff with probably the most game in the 2000 for a goaler.

Very not bad imo. Very Elite, the guy had 9 times playoff with .920% or higher.

 

[popculturereference]

It would be Luongo in 2003-04. And as the best of the '00s. EDIT: For example, Brodeur isn't even in the top 10 in EV Sv% for the '00s. See here.)

And I don't think Brodeur was legitimately "the best" ever in his career. Dividing his career into rough chunks he would've been always behind one of Hasek (1994-2000), Luongo (2000-06), or Vokoun/Thomas (2006-present), imo.

Thank you for refuting your argument by saying Vokoun was the best goalie in the past five years.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I find it interesting how Brodeur bashers manage to turn a skill of his, one that was such a benefit towards winning games that the NHL actually changed the rules to limit him, into a detriment.

I'm talking about his puck handling ability, one of the reasons the Devils were able to play such good defense without taking penalties. His ability to dump the puck right back out made it so that his teammates didn't have to try to tie up forecheckers, risking penalties in the process. It's not the only reason the Devils took so few penalties (coaching obviously played a large role), but it was one of the reasons. His rebound control, which is among the best ever, has helped as well. Only in bizarro-world does Brodeur's ability to help his team limit penalties against actually make him a worse goalie.

I guess Brodeur would have been better off if he played "the right way," staying in the goal, not attacking the puck, doing nothing to prevent goals that didn't count as saves. Those poke checks of his? They don't count as saves, so he'd be better off not doing them. Then he could see more shots, face more penalties, and rack up fancier looking save percentage numbers like the great Tomas Vokoun.

 

[Fred Taylor]

Sittler's record of 10 pts in one game.

He was good, but not nearly as good as that record implies.

This is the one I had in mind. Multiple 8 point games are more impressive. He never had more than 5 points in any other game of his career.

 

[habsjunkie2*]

stan makita as the all time s coring leader for european born players.

he came to canada when he was 6

played all his minor and junior hockey in canada

why is he still refferred to as a foreign born player.

Probably because he was born a foreigner. Just guessing.

 

[Big Phil]

It would be Luongo in 2003-04. And as the best of the '00s. EDIT: For example, Brodeur isn't even in the top 10 in EV Sv% for the '00s. See here.)

And I don't think Brodeur was legitimately "the best" ever in his career. Dividing his career into rough chunks he would've been always behind one of Hasek (1994-2000), Luongo (2000-06), or Vokoun/Thomas (2006-present), imo.

Luongo the best goalie from 2000-'06? You're kidding right? He had never played in a playoff game up until that point, had one great season in 2004 and at every turn Brodeur was picked for international tournaments over him like clockwork.

No argument that Hasek beats him from 1994-'00, however I was strictly keeping it to the 2000s. Name me a goalie that you, or the consensus of fans in the NHL would have had on their team from 2000-'10. How in the world could it be anyone but Brodeur?

 

[tombombadil]

not able to answer your question, but in general, a lot of people assign a "gritty defensive" label to guys with a lot of penalty minutes, and a "soft" label to guys that don't take many.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Luongo the best goalie from 2000-'06? You're kidding right? He had never played in a playoff game up until that point, had one great season in 2004 and at every turn Brodeur was picked for international tournaments over him like clockwork.

No argument that Hasek beats him from 1994-'00, however I was strictly keeping it to the 2000s. Name me a goalie that you, or the consensus of fans in the NHL would have had on their team from 2000-'10. How in the world could it be anyone but Brodeur?

He's not kidding. If you think you can determine 100% of a goalie's value by his officially logged regular season save percentages, then his answers are reasonable. In my opinion, in your opinion, and in the opinion of most, this evaluation method itself is unreasonable, however.

 

[Big Phil]

He's not kidding. If you think you can determine 100% of a goalie's value by his officially logged regular season save percentages, then his answers are reasonable. In my opinion, in your opinion, and in the opinion of most, this evaluation method itself is unreasonable, however.

I agree. I mean, do people remember that Mike Dunham was a goalie who always seemed to have a great save percentage? Shall we open the HHOF doors for him? This stat is useful, but not if its the only thing you pay attention to.

 

[RECsGuy*]

Mike Gartner scored 751 goals.

Impressed? Don't be.

The guy was NEVER elite. ONE 50-goal campaign (exactly 50) and ONE 100-point campaign, both taking place in the same season ('84-'85), despite playing nearly his entire career ('79-'98) in the league's highest scoring era.

1,554 Games - 751 Goals - 677 Assists - 1,428 Points

He is the epitome of what is wrong with the Hockey Hall Of Fame.

Oh, and this "legend" is on the committee that decides future HHOF inductees. What a joke.

 

[Plural]

stan makita as the all time s coring leader for european born players.

he came to canada when he was 6

played all his minor and junior hockey in canada

why is he still refferred to as a foreign born player.

I know everybody hates this, but i have to say. Makita is a power drill brand Stan Mikita is former hockey player. Sorry for being an *******.

 

[MS]

I agree. I mean, do people remember that Mike Dunham was a goalie who always seemed to have a great save percentage? Shall we open the HHOF doors for him? This stat is useful, but not if its the only thing you pay attention to.

Of course it isn't the only thing you pay attention to.

I also look at the context those stats were generated in - few shots, easier shots than most goalies because of the lack of SH time, the ability of a guy like Clemmenson to duplicate Brodeur's stats behind the same team.

And I've probably seen Brodeur play 100-200 games over the course of his career, and know damned well from watching those games that NJD's systems and discipline were incredible and that he has traditionally received a hell of a lot easier ride than the vast majority of NHL goalies.

 

[ssh]

Luongo the best goalie from 2000-'06? You're kidding right? He had never played in a playoff game up until that point, had one great season in 2004 and at every turn Brodeur was picked for international tournaments over him like clockwork.

No argument that Hasek beats him from 1994-'00, however I was strictly keeping it to the 2000s. Name me a goalie that you, or the consensus of fans in the NHL would have had on their team from 2000-'10. How in the world could it be anyone but Brodeur?

(Just because I was curious) Here's the top regular season goalies in terms of GvT in 2000-06.

Goalie | GvT
Roberto Luongo | 139 |
Jean-Sebastien Giguere | 84 |
Marty Turco | 81 |
Dominik Hasek | 80 |
Patrick Roy | 77 |
Sean Burke | 76 |
Martin Brodeur | 75 |
Roman Cechmanek | 74 |
Tomas Vokoun | 70 |
Jose Theodore | 68 |
Manny Legace | 65 |
Dwayne Roloson | 63 |
Evgeni Nabokov| 63 |
Manny Fernandez | 61 |
Miikka Kiprusoff | 60 |
Curtis Joseph| 55 |
David Aebischer | 54 |
Ed Belfour | 47 |
Olaf Kolzig | 45 |
Martin Biron | 43 |

edit: This is the weakest stretch for Brodeur, after the high level seasons in the 90's and before his late peak after the lockout.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Of course it isn't the only thing you pay attention to.

I also look at the context those stats were generated in - few shots, easier shots than most goalies because of the lack of SH time, the ability of a guy like Clemmenson to duplicate Brodeur's stats behind the same team.

And I've probably seen Brodeur play 100-200 games over the course of his career, and know damned well from watching those games that NJD's systems and discipline were incredible and that he has traditionally received a hell of a lot easier ride than the vast majority of NHL goalies.

And this is the key.

The Devils won 3 Cups. Broduer's numbers were:

.927 SP 1.67 GA
.927 SP 1.61 GA
.934 SP 1.65 GA with 7 shutouts

Yet on a team where he was the only superstar, Brodeur won no Conn Smythe Trophies. Why? Because everyone actually saw the games and know how little Brodeur actually had to do to win.